patrick.net

rando says

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

and the banksters laugh and laugh.

You're basically saying the law of supply and demand doesn't work then. If demand goes up, supply should rise accordingly. True, it may take some time as you can't build/expand a college or University overnight, but any price increases should be temporary. Although, as Dan points out, with today's technology you shouldn't need a bunch of brick and mortar buildings anyway.

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

tatupu70 says

rando says

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

and the banksters laugh and laugh.

You're basically saying the law of supply and demand doesn't work then.

I think he's saying the laws of demand and supply does work. When interest rates fall, it becomes cheaper to buy a home, and drives up demand. The increased demand leads to a price increase which offsets the savings from lower interest rates.
Patrick, the idea is to get in at the start of the cycle.

thunderlips11 says

It's because dumbass kids with no life experience don't read the fine print from these bullshit private colleges, which are basically federal grant/loan papermills.

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers? Could most people understand the fine print and its jargon?

And most importantly, what choice do these kids have anyway? College is a tax on entering the skilled work force. You either pay the entree fee or you don't get a decent job. The very first thing employers are going to do is toss any resume that doesn't have a degree.

Yes, college is bullshit and needs to be completely overhauled, but there is nothing the powerless students can do. The problem with students is that they think they have any power. They get ego trips and become SJWs when really they are just cattle being used for profit. They can't even vote with their dollars because they are forced to choose some college and they are all pretty much the same.

We need to completely get rid of colleges and replace them with a single national virtual university that uses the best electronic textbooks, videos, and interactive applications for teaching subjects. We need a single, national standard for evaluating performance. And we need to completely decouple education from geography, time, the pace at which students learn, and socialization. Finally, we need to get rid of the fix ratio of teachers to students and replace it with a ratio of teachers to subjects, which is only possible with virtualization.

The costs of college are due to campuses and staff. The former is not necessary and the later should not grow with the student count but rather with the subject count. A few teachers in a virtual university can teach billions, even trillions, of students simultaneously. Only through that scaling will education be affordable and available to all. And when the cost of education is, as it should be in the information age, a few dollars per course per student, we can easily socialize that cost and make education free to all students. That's equality of opportunity.

Strategist says

think he's saying the laws of demand and supply does work. When interest rates fall, it becomes cheaper to buy a home, and drives up demand

That's not really how it works. I've posted it before, but there is actually a very slight positive correlation between interest rates and house prices. That is--as rates go up, prices go up. As rates go down, prices go down.

tatupu70 says

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

It's already not rationed. You can be self taught.

zzyzzx says

It's already not rationed. You can be self taught.

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Dan8267 says

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers? Could most people understand the fine print and its jargon?

I think in most cases fine print is not the problem. They should just understand things like how much (range of) money will I need? What are my job and salary expectations? What is the interest rate I will pay? What happens if I cannot pay

Some simple proposals:
- Summarize everything in an easy/comparable box (kind of credit card model)
- Force all students taking a loan to visit an *independent* financial adviser, not the one at the university (I would even write force for anybody getting a house loan, but hey, this is America, where you are free to be ignorant).

tatupu70 says

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

It really isn't - it's rationing of education based on desire. Based on skin in the game. You want it bad enough, you WILL find a way to obtain it. AND after you've put in your blood, sweat and tears it will mean more to you and be more valuable to you than the person who signed papers and was given the money, the degree the whatever. One of the reasons that high school diplomas have become so worthless is because there is so LITTLE skin in the game. If you show up at high school 80% of the time (or even less) they will pass you through. The skin you got in the game is that you breathed and the pathetic lack of education shows it. Yes, higher education SHOULD be more expensive and getting there should help to separate those who want it versus those who are just killing time (cause they were told that this was the next thing that they were suppose to do).

ja says

This seems like a bad financial choice if you expect to get a job after graduation where you get paid xn the amount that before those 15-20 hrs/wk

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

mmmarvel says

You want it bad enough, you WILL find a way to obtain it

I think that's naïve.

mmmarvel says

Yes, higher education SHOULD be more expensive and getting there should help to separate those who want it versus those who are just killing time (

Agree up to a point, but when college costs are greatly outpacing inflation and a persons ability to pay out of pocket, then it is a problem.

If people want it, they can prove it, in part, by taking standardized entrance exams. In theory, this could separate People who want it vs those killing time; in reality, testing is a big business and test scores strongly correlate with household income

tatupu70 says

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

MMR says

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

Maybe--in my experience, a resume without a degree gets shitcanned immediately. Probably before it even gets to the hiring manager.

MMR says

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

That's what loans are for

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

It's because dumbass kids with no life experience don't read the fine print from these bullshit private colleges, which are basically federal grant/loan papermills.

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers?

Put yourself in the shoes of the establishment: They need to grow debts because that's the only way the economy can grow .
Either students do it, or homeowner, or someone... If no one was borrowing, the government would need to do it in your name, and they don't want to get accused of mismanaging the countries finance.

So it's all organized this way. Universities, congress, financial companies. They all contributed to streamline this process. And it works (for them).

And then the media wonders why people are so mad at the establishment, Britain votes out of the EU and Trump is so popular in the US.

tatupu70 says

MMR says

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

Maybe--in my experience, a resume without a degree gets shitcanned immediately. Probably before it even gets to the hiring manager.

Depends a lot on the company. Consulting shops like the Java certs a lot because they can bill them out to clients for good money. But even for the top tech companies there are avenues other than a university degree, particularly if you've done work on open source projects. A very good friend of mine is now a staff software engineer at Google (which is a very senior title, total comp I'm sure in excess of 300k/yr) and he never went to college at all. What he has is quite a few years of working at Red Hat as a kernel developer, which in turn he got from several years as a key code contributor to GNU libc. So it can be done, although it's not an easy path.

tatupu70 says

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Programmers have gotten programming jobs with no degree. As for engineering positions, there is a glut of engineers so I don't see this happening.

zzyzzx says

Programmers have gotten programming jobs with no degree

This I can see--it's much easier to show your competency in programming.

zzyzzx says

As for engineering positions, there is a glut of engineers so I don't see this happening

There's a glut of everything. That's the problem. But engineers are in a much better position than most.

Ironman--How much work does it take to keep answering my posts when you're on ignore. I only respond this time because I don't know where in the heck you got the idea I work in a warehouse. That's hilarious.

MMR says

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

zzyzzx says

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

Easy:

zzyzzx says

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

What if they are majoring in a subject that will help them to earn more money?

Ironman says

But we discussed further up in the thread how to overcome that by working part time, going to community college, finding grants and scholarships, etc.

I agree, but why should colleges that have traditionally been affordable, like Rutgers, suddenly have jumps that greatly outpace inflation?

On an unrelated note, The number of students from New York and New Jersey studying in Maryland is quite dramatic at a place like Towson U. Their out of state is cheaper than in state for SUNY or Rutgers

Economic realities being what they are, yes I think living at home and doing couple years at a community college is a good idea to save money.

On a personal level, I think that the latter strategy would have been far more beneficial for me. If I had to do it over again, I would do this and I think my parents would have been supportive of that idea as well

ja says

That's what loans are for

True. All debt isn't bad debt, but a lot of people don't seem to know the difference.

That being said, doing 15-20 hrs a week isn't likely to be so much of a distraction in most cases that it causes a huge drop off in one's GPA or necessarily prevents them from graduating on time

anonymous says

a nurse with a student loan balance of $152,000

This is less than 1% of the debt profile in the U.S.

Cherry picking.... is big... here

College is a game of diminishing returns for most. It costs more, and the benefit is less because everyone has a ba/bs nowadays. My ba in history has proven quite useless in my field of software testing.

I've already told my oldest she gets no support unless she pursues a career that requires college.

Unemployment rate for recent college grads
March 2016: 4.2%
2011: 7.1%
2007: 3.4%

It's worth every penny: It makes you less likely to vote for birthers.

I remember back in the 1950's if a person graduated with a bachelors degree they would pretty much get a starter job in management with an office.

Then by the time the 60'and 70s rolled around a graduate was only getting a good job with room for advancement. (i think the student rise up might have scared the ruling class by stopping the war and thus began the backlash of fear of the educated class)

By the 80s and 90s they were getting entry level office jobs with faster advancement than most.

After the turn of the century hello Disney Land and Fast Food jobs with projects for management there, that is if they liked you!

If you want to poor and make less money and have a high unemployment rate, then you have blue print, don't finish high school or don't go to college

All your dreams will come true

If you don't want or can't go to college, get a trade show skill job

Nobody cares about a cry baby when we have 154 Million Americans working and the highest job openings ever recorded in human history

But... by all means, don't go to school.... the world always needs people to cry and complain...

Ironman says

What about the almost 100 Million NOT working....

Oh, nevermin

This is why we need college..

This statement here, I have had so much fun with...

Fallacy of Logic... this is my theme with Anti American Bears...

154 Million working
43 year low unemployment claims
Highest job openings ever recorded in human history

And yet the people who never took a course is stats .... want to make people believe that there are 100 Million people out of work when we only lost less than 15 Million in great recession and hired back more than that.

I can't make this stuff up..

Where on this chart did 100 Million people just vanish from the work force...

Al liens .... that is the best example for Zero Hedge Anti American Cry babies should give

Local community college, a short course in economics and stats... then all your confusion goes away...

It's the best investment you can make for yourself

Or ... cry away...

Your choice

Ironman says

Try using the RIGHT chart, not one of your disengenuous charts:

That right there... see that is exactly what I am talking about..

What you're saying is that growing population should be counted as a 1 to 1 ratio for people not working

Again, I can't make this stuff up... This is as a basic as you can get.. and yet it gets ignored

If people read... then they learn... if people read Zero Hedge... they don't learn the truth

Best thesis ...

Listen up kids, educational tip

We created the prime age labor force metrics to count for people ages 25-54

Because we don't accept the fact that ages 16-24 should be working full time job and that ages 55-95 should be working full time jobs if they have never worked in their life

So... demographically heavy ages 17-29 and ages 49-65

Who are missing

Roughly 2.8 Million Prime age labor force workers from the last cycle , some who are women who have said .. we don't want to work.. some on diability and some who are drug addicts not in rehab .. some are active criminals not in jail

2.8 Million.. and now you can see why Job openings are so high and it matches the demographics of this cycle

Logan Mohtashami says

If you want to poor and make less money and have a high unemployment rate, then you have blue print, don't finish high school or don't go to college

All your dreams will come true

If you don't want or can't go to college, get a trade show skill job

Nobody cares about a cry baby when we have 154 Million Americans working and the highest job openings ever recorded in human history

But... by all means, don't go to school.... the world always needs people to cry and complain...

As usual this is based on speculation, not experience. I had a roommate who dropped out in 9th or 10th grade. He currently runs his own SEO business, and worked in data recovery for a while before that. Another family friend learned computers and lighting on his own, run's the fantasmic show at Disneyland. No college. My brother-in-law did two years of community, learned computers on his own, and works in IT, specifically security. I personally have a BA in history, but have worked for over 10 years as a SW test engineer. All successful, none due to college.

My sister went for 4 years, and works in the field she studied, as an editor(English). She has a second job to make ends meet, and is going nowhere.

NuttBoxer says

I had a roommate who dropped out in 9th or 10th grade. He currently runs his own SEO business, and worked in data recovery for a while before that. Another family friend learned computers and lighting on his own, run's the fantasmic show at Disneyland. No college. My brother-in-law did two years of community, learned computers on his own, and works in IT, specifically security. I personally have a BA in history, but have worked for over 10 years as a SW test engineer. All successful, none due to college.

The above is an anecdote.

This is data:

Data > anecdotes

tatupu70 says

The above is an anecdote.

This is data:

Ironman says

Really???

That beats multiple real world examples...

Only an idiot would think that!

the data that irondicksucker is really stupid just keeps piling up!

tatupu70 says

The above is an anecdote.

What's the source of those charts? Ohh, the same government who happens to be the largest player in student loans. And I'm not sure you understand what anecdote means. See, I know the people I listed, and how much help "education" was to them. Do you know any of the people from your government cooked surveys?

NuttBoxer says

What's the source of those charts? Ohh, the same government who happens to be the largest player in student loans. And I'm not sure you understand what anecdote means. See, I know the people I listed, and how much help "education" was to them. Do you know any of the people from your government cooked surveys?

OK--believe what you will. If you distrust all data from the government, then it's certainly easier to believe what you want to believe.

I have no doubt that you know those people. The point was that conclusions based on a data set of 3 are much less reliable than conclusions based on a data set of 30 million.

fallacy of logic

If it doesn't fit my narrative, it has to be false, its a conspiracy...

287K today....... #NoRecession2016