patrick.net

">Philistine says

Sorta agree. Obviously this woman wasn't thinking if she was racking up that much debt, though. I worked two jobs all through college, and took five years to complete it because of the strain of balancing work with classes. But I graduated with less than $10k in debt and paid it off in two years. I don't think most of my friends went that route, though. I knew some people that literally used student loans to pay rent and go shopping and eat out most nights. This was 20 years ago.

What were your living and tuition costs through college vs. your income?

http://www.careerigniter.com/questions/how-much-does-it-cost-to-go-to-nursing-school/

"The tuition fee for a bachelor’s of science degree in nursing (BSN), which takes four years to finish, costs anywhere from $40,000 to well over $100,000 each year in private institutions and large universities. At Johns Hopkins School of Nursing, for example, the Summer-Entry Accelerated Bachelor’s Program tuition fee for the 13-month program is $69,024. At the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing, the tuition fee for their accelerated program starting from Summer 2014 to Fall 2015 is $103,000. Meanwhile, the tuition fee for their undergraduate course is $47,668 each year.

Books can cost anywhere from over $1,000 to more than $3,000 each year. Nursing students are also required to wear their uniforms as well as have their own medical apparatuses like a stethoscope, blood pressure apparatus, watch, goggles, thermometer and the like. These can cost anywhere from $300 to $500 although these are usually one-time expenses unless the uniform gets outgrown or the medical apparatus gets damaged. Health insurance can cost anywhere from a little over $1,000 to over $4,000 each year. Other fees that must also be factored into a nursing student’s budget are application fees and laboratory fees.

Housing, food and personal expenses can range anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 a year

Fulltime nursing students can also opt to work part-time to help fund their personal expenses while they are in college, although this requires discipline and highly-organized time management skills."

Or just hire Filipina nurses with half the training for half the price. If it pays well, outsource it - if you can't, insource it!

No one forces anyone to live at school. In California I can't think of an area that is more than an hours drive from a decent community college. Maybe Baker...a town of 2,000 or fewer people. Also having trouble thinking of an area that's more than an hours drive from a cal state college. I guess along 395, but I'd be shocked if the entire population between Mojave and Lake Tahoe was more than 100,000.

So community college is around $900-1200/year full time. Cal states are around $6k. Even if it took you five years with 3 at the cal state, add in books and parking, no help from parents except living at home, and your part time job does not pay for school at all, you are looking at maybe $22-25k in student loans...less than the average cost of a new car. Change it to a UC, and you are still looking at less than $50k in loans which should be ok unless your major is gender, Chicano, or African American studies, in which case the world would be better off without your lying ass anyway.

People that attend private schools and live at school while not working and racking up six figure debts no man could pay, are utter imbeciles. Literally no reason to engage in such a life pattern. Stupid entitlement mentality.

Oh and as far as nursing goes, 15 cal state campuses have nursing programs leading to bn to RN related degrees.

casandra says

I thought that all these student loans were supposed to make college affordable.

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

and the banksters laugh and laugh.

Ironman says

How come you left out this part from your link:

Look who is whining...

http://www.popecenter.org/2014/10/should-community-colleges-offer-bachelors-degrees-in-nursing/

"In most states, community colleges offer only associate degrees in nursing, which require two to three years of education. But in five states—Florida, Indiana, Nevada, New Mexico, and Washington—they offer a four-year nursing bachelor’s degree.

...One of the biggest drawbacks to the community college BSN is the possibility that it won’t be valued as highly as one obtained at a four-year college, a point raised by Roxanne Fulcher, director of health professions policy at the American Association of Community Colleges,at North Carolina’s ad hoc nursing committee meeting. She predicted a debate over whether “a BSN is a BSN,” or if the community college version less valuable."

http://www.usnews.com/education/community-colleges/articles/2015/06/10/prepare-for-stiff-competition-to-get-an-associate-degree-in-nursing

"1. Getting into the program won't be easy..."Nursing programs are so selective," says Jaggars. "You can enroll in community college but you can't get into the nursing program until you demonstrate various prerequisites. They only have a limited number of spots."
2. Nursing programs require lots of time.
4. An associate degree is just a first step."

dodgerfanjohn says

no help from parents except living at home

Smacks of a bit of entitlement to assume every student has an option of a parent who can let them live for free in their home.

Ironman says

Is that really the best you can come with??

What are you coming up with beside anecdotal comments about your daughters and their friends?

Ironman says

So, do you know that many parents that charge their kids rent when they are going to college? Is it standard practice to start charging them rent right after graduation from high school?

My golly, what an insulated life you must live. One where parents have education funds, or savings, or even assest they can access, for their special children's education. Where the choices are not "whether" or not your child will be able to attend college, only "which" college your child will attend.

Dan8267 says

Somebody set up us the loan. Suck every bankster cock for great justice!

Were you wearing this Tshirt when that thought occurred to you?

Indiana Jones says

dodgerfanjohn says

no help from parents except living at home

Smacks of a bit of entitlement to assume every student has an option of a parent who can let them live for free in their home.

No it doesn't, and most kids in one way or another can live at home. And anyway I know so many who went to college half time while working full time. So whatever you have to do what you have to do.. Besides, as Patrick pointed out, tuition costs wouldn't be so high if the loans weren't so easy, which they wouldn't be but for the entitlement mentality of needing to attend particular private colleges.

Ironman says

you can check out BSN programs in community colleges which costs considerably lower

If money is an issue, and it usually is, living at home and doing this is the best way to minimize debt and maybe working about 15-20 hrs/wk

It's because dumbass kids with no life experience don't read the fine print from these bullshit private colleges, which are basically federal grant/loan papermills.

rando says

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

AKA the Cantillon Effect.

Mega Millions jackpot is at $454M. Never underestimate plan b.

MMR says

If money is an issue, and it usually is, living at home and doing this is the best way to minimize debt and maybe working about 15-20 hrs/wk

This seems like a bad financial choice if you expect to get a job after graduation where you get paid xn the amount that before those 15-20 hrs/wk

rando says

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

I disagree, in theory. If you can measure (what it's difficult sometimes) the benefits/dividends of a degree and the $$ of the job you can get with it, it may make perfect sense to invest in a degree. Or you think there is also a bubble (similar to the housing one)?

rando says

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

and the banksters laugh and laugh.

You're basically saying the law of supply and demand doesn't work then. If demand goes up, supply should rise accordingly. True, it may take some time as you can't build/expand a college or University overnight, but any price increases should be temporary. Although, as Dan points out, with today's technology you shouldn't need a bunch of brick and mortar buildings anyway.

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

tatupu70 says

rando says

any time lending is increased to make something "affordable", that extra money eventually drives price increases which negate the loans, and the borrowers lose. now they have to pay more for the same thing.

true for housing, true for college.

if you're the first one to get the new money when lending increases, you may win by getting access before prices go up. but you have to be fast. everyone after that simply loses by bidding more against each other with money they borrowed.

and the banksters laugh and laugh.

You're basically saying the law of supply and demand doesn't work then.

I think he's saying the laws of demand and supply does work. When interest rates fall, it becomes cheaper to buy a home, and drives up demand. The increased demand leads to a price increase which offsets the savings from lower interest rates.
Patrick, the idea is to get in at the start of the cycle.

thunderlips11 says

It's because dumbass kids with no life experience don't read the fine print from these bullshit private colleges, which are basically federal grant/loan papermills.

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers? Could most people understand the fine print and its jargon?

And most importantly, what choice do these kids have anyway? College is a tax on entering the skilled work force. You either pay the entree fee or you don't get a decent job. The very first thing employers are going to do is toss any resume that doesn't have a degree.

Yes, college is bullshit and needs to be completely overhauled, but there is nothing the powerless students can do. The problem with students is that they think they have any power. They get ego trips and become SJWs when really they are just cattle being used for profit. They can't even vote with their dollars because they are forced to choose some college and they are all pretty much the same.

We need to completely get rid of colleges and replace them with a single national virtual university that uses the best electronic textbooks, videos, and interactive applications for teaching subjects. We need a single, national standard for evaluating performance. And we need to completely decouple education from geography, time, the pace at which students learn, and socialization. Finally, we need to get rid of the fix ratio of teachers to students and replace it with a ratio of teachers to subjects, which is only possible with virtualization.

The costs of college are due to campuses and staff. The former is not necessary and the later should not grow with the student count but rather with the subject count. A few teachers in a virtual university can teach billions, even trillions, of students simultaneously. Only through that scaling will education be affordable and available to all. And when the cost of education is, as it should be in the information age, a few dollars per course per student, we can easily socialize that cost and make education free to all students. That's equality of opportunity.

Strategist says

think he's saying the laws of demand and supply does work. When interest rates fall, it becomes cheaper to buy a home, and drives up demand

That's not really how it works. I've posted it before, but there is actually a very slight positive correlation between interest rates and house prices. That is--as rates go up, prices go up. As rates go down, prices go down.

tatupu70 says

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

It's already not rationed. You can be self taught.

zzyzzx says

It's already not rationed. You can be self taught.

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Dan8267 says

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers? Could most people understand the fine print and its jargon?

I think in most cases fine print is not the problem. They should just understand things like how much (range of) money will I need? What are my job and salary expectations? What is the interest rate I will pay? What happens if I cannot pay

Some simple proposals:
- Summarize everything in an easy/comparable box (kind of credit card model)
- Force all students taking a loan to visit an *independent* financial adviser, not the one at the university (I would even write force for anybody getting a house loan, but hey, this is America, where you are free to be ignorant).

tatupu70 says

But the bottom line is-the solution should never be rationing of education based on wealth.

It really isn't - it's rationing of education based on desire. Based on skin in the game. You want it bad enough, you WILL find a way to obtain it. AND after you've put in your blood, sweat and tears it will mean more to you and be more valuable to you than the person who signed papers and was given the money, the degree the whatever. One of the reasons that high school diplomas have become so worthless is because there is so LITTLE skin in the game. If you show up at high school 80% of the time (or even less) they will pass you through. The skin you got in the game is that you breathed and the pathetic lack of education shows it. Yes, higher education SHOULD be more expensive and getting there should help to separate those who want it versus those who are just killing time (cause they were told that this was the next thing that they were suppose to do).

ja says

This seems like a bad financial choice if you expect to get a job after graduation where you get paid xn the amount that before those 15-20 hrs/wk

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

mmmarvel says

You want it bad enough, you WILL find a way to obtain it

I think that's naïve.

mmmarvel says

Yes, higher education SHOULD be more expensive and getting there should help to separate those who want it versus those who are just killing time (

Agree up to a point, but when college costs are greatly outpacing inflation and a persons ability to pay out of pocket, then it is a problem.

If people want it, they can prove it, in part, by taking standardized entrance exams. In theory, this could separate People who want it vs those killing time; in reality, testing is a big business and test scores strongly correlate with household income

tatupu70 says

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

MMR says

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

Maybe--in my experience, a resume without a degree gets shitcanned immediately. Probably before it even gets to the hiring manager.

MMR says

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

That's what loans are for

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

It's because dumbass kids with no life experience don't read the fine print from these bullshit private colleges, which are basically federal grant/loan papermills.

Does anyone read the fine print except accountants and lawyers?

Put yourself in the shoes of the establishment: They need to grow debts because that's the only way the economy can grow .
Either students do it, or homeowner, or someone... If no one was borrowing, the government would need to do it in your name, and they don't want to get accused of mismanaging the countries finance.

So it's all organized this way. Universities, congress, financial companies. They all contributed to streamline this process. And it works (for them).

And then the media wonders why people are so mad at the establishment, Britain votes out of the EU and Trump is so popular in the US.

tatupu70 says

MMR says

Let's say someone is a sun certified Java developer or enterprise architect. You may not technically need a degree for that as a prerequisite and the sun certification is a verifiable standard of quality.

I'm sure that someone could get, at the bare minimum, an entry-level job(prob more) off that certification and move into higher paying positions with more experience.

Maybe--in my experience, a resume without a degree gets shitcanned immediately. Probably before it even gets to the hiring manager.

Depends a lot on the company. Consulting shops like the Java certs a lot because they can bill them out to clients for good money. But even for the top tech companies there are avenues other than a university degree, particularly if you've done work on open source projects. A very good friend of mine is now a staff software engineer at Google (which is a very senior title, total comp I'm sure in excess of 300k/yr) and he never went to college at all. What he has is quite a few years of working at Red Hat as a kernel developer, which in turn he got from several years as a key code contributor to GNU libc. So it can be done, although it's not an easy path.

tatupu70 says

How many interviews are you going to get for an engineering job with "self taught" on your resume.

Programmers have gotten programming jobs with no degree. As for engineering positions, there is a glut of engineers so I don't see this happening.

zzyzzx says

Programmers have gotten programming jobs with no degree

This I can see--it's much easier to show your competency in programming.

zzyzzx says

As for engineering positions, there is a glut of engineers so I don't see this happening

There's a glut of everything. That's the problem. But engineers are in a much better position than most.

Ironman--How much work does it take to keep answering my posts when you're on ignore. I only respond this time because I don't know where in the heck you got the idea I work in a warehouse. That's hilarious.

MMR says

What if a person has great difficulty affording tuition from semester to semester?

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

zzyzzx says

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

Easy:

zzyzzx says

Then they should not go to college. Why should someone take on debt to go into an already overcrowded field?

What if they are majoring in a subject that will help them to earn more money?

Ironman says

But we discussed further up in the thread how to overcome that by working part time, going to community college, finding grants and scholarships, etc.

I agree, but why should colleges that have traditionally been affordable, like Rutgers, suddenly have jumps that greatly outpace inflation?

On an unrelated note, The number of students from New York and New Jersey studying in Maryland is quite dramatic at a place like Towson U. Their out of state is cheaper than in state for SUNY or Rutgers

Economic realities being what they are, yes I think living at home and doing couple years at a community college is a good idea to save money.

On a personal level, I think that the latter strategy would have been far more beneficial for me. If I had to do it over again, I would do this and I think my parents would have been supportive of that idea as well

ja says

That's what loans are for

True. All debt isn't bad debt, but a lot of people don't seem to know the difference.

That being said, doing 15-20 hrs a week isn't likely to be so much of a distraction in most cases that it causes a huge drop off in one's GPA or necessarily prevents them from graduating on time

anonymous says

a nurse with a student loan balance of $152,000

This is less than 1% of the debt profile in the U.S.

Cherry picking.... is big... here