patrick.net

Do libel laws, and the inability to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, hinder free speech?

Take the hypocritical "Free Speech Forum" down while you are at it.
Your site absolutely won't deserve those words at the top....

rando says

I do need to ban direct insults.

Define direct insult.

zzyzzx says

rando says

I do need to ban direct insults.

ridiculous

Make sure you remove the words "Free Speech Forum" first.

RIP Patrick's "Free Speech Forum"

zzyzzx says

rando says

I do need to ban direct insults.

Define direct insult.

"Listen, you fuckwad ..."

Graybox says

RIP Patrick's "Free Speech Forum"

Not true, you can attack any point you want, just don't make it about the person.

It is a limitation, but perhaps basic civility would add more to the conversation than it takes away.

And we could still designate a thread or set of threads as the Thunderdome where anything goes.

dublin hillz says

I fully support Patrick banning ad-homs. It doesn't matter whether right or left wing engages in this, the ad-homs add absolutely nothing to the conversation. For the record, I would say that the king of all ad-homs was Roberto Barabas and I can't say I miss his presence...

He was a total cunt.

zzyzzx says

Define direct insult.

zzyyzzx is an asshole.
Tis my opinion that zzyyzzx appears to hold opinions inline with that of an asshole. (looking down my nose at you, and spreading Grey Poupon from my limo)
zzyyzzx is deplorable.
zzyyzzx is a Trumpthuglican.
CIC likes goats.

rando says

Not true, you can attack any point you want, just don't directly attack the person making it.

I think zzyyzzx's point is a valid one. The arbitration of 'direct insult' might be difficult.

At the very least, it will be a significant change to the culture and discourse on Pnet. I'd settle for seeing the trolliness/ignore and dislike numbers while we ponder this more. :P

HEY YOU says

Rew's just showing off! LOL

BANNED! Direct insult. ;)

(fist bump)

rando says

And we could still designate a thread or set of threads as the Thunderdome where anything goes.

That is a idea, lets see where the numbers go to. I have odds on no holds barred "Thunderdome" 100-1.

Rew says

zzyyzzx is an asshole.

Tis my opinion that zzyyzzx appears to hold opinions inline with that of an asshole. (looking down my nose at you, and spreading Grey Poupon from my limo)

zzyyzzx is deplorable.

zzyyzzx is a Trumpthuglican.

CIC likes goats.

All clearly ad hominem in my book. They attack the person and not the point being made.

Rew says

I think zzyyzzx's point is a valid one. The arbitration of 'direct insult' might be difficult.

True, there could be borderline cases. I hate that. As a spergy programmer type, I prefer clear algorithms for making decisions. But humans are messy.

errc says

Do libel laws, and the inability to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, hinder free speech?

Why is this such a hard question to answer?

For that matter, why not address the title of the thread?

Is the only thing you Special Snowflakes know how to do is bitch and moan like a woman on her period?

"Waaaah, Patrick is trying to improve hit site. Waaaah I want to stifle Free Speech by discouraging unpopular things from being said with unoriginal, disinteresting personal attacks. Waaaaaaahhh"

Ironman says

your next rape or misogyny thread

If you're saying "you", that's a good clue that you're attacking the person and not the point, which is the definition of ad hominem.

rando says

Ironman says

your next rape or misogyny thread

If you're saying "you", that's a good clue that you're attacking the person and not the point, which is the definition of ad hominem.

So fucking what.... Some alternative facts for a fake Free Speech Forum

It's not about worthwhile freeness of speech but rather the #'s.
Patrick may not want to put another stab wound in free speech but damn
if he could just get a few more #'s this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Very pathetic....

The number of readers does seem to suffer when the forum degenerates into ad hominem attacks with little real discussion going on.

What is the value of attacking a person rather than their point? How does that help us understand or resolve any issue?

OK, there's a little bit of entertainment value in attacking a person, but there seems to be a big cost as well.

rando says

The number of readers does seem to suffer when the forum degenerates into ad hominem attacks with little real discussion going on.

What is the value of attacking a person rather than their point? How does that help us understand or resolve any issue?

OK, there's a little bit of entertainment value in attacking a person, but there seems to be a big cost as well.

Don't bother asking "these people " the tough questions, there's one thing that's certain: they will never answer them because the answer destroys their "point"

Yes...

errc says

"these people "

lol

I still think my proposed solution is the simplest. One thread per person per day. Maybe also 20 posts/comments per person per day? We just need to throttle the drivel, not police every comment. It is just too much work, not free speech, and can be abused.

Just ask the military who are in the ground in part to protect free speech if they think you should CENSOR a
website who claims to be a Free Speech Forum.

So then Graybox, how can Patrick make the homepage capture (and retain) more new users?

errc says

So then Graybox, how can Patrick make the homepage capture (and retain) more new users?

I don't know plain and simple, but I do believe it's not by censoring a site that claims to be a free speech advocate.

Graybox says

censoring a site that claims to be a free speech advocate

www.youtube.com/embed/T3lBaW8VUGQ

Graybox says

You should go back and read your own

And we are learning volumes about you from these current posts. lol

Why isn't Spam all over PNet? FREE SPEECH! OMG! Patrick let the spam in!

LET THE SPAM INNNNNnnnnnnnnn!

Either Patrick has the balls to keep this a Free Speech forum or he don't...
Very simple....

Rew says

And we are learning volumes about you from these current posts. lol

You don't come close to understanding...

Graybox says

You don't come close to understanding...

I tried to come close to understanding once. Restraining order.

Ironman says

Why is it this group became such Special Snowflakes and carry on like little children, even though they are on a "FREE SPEECH" forum??

You can't make this shit up.

They bitch but by far and large they are the first to insult....

None of them self righteous mother fuckers can throw the 1st stone.

I would love to see "Free Speech Forum" loud and clear at the top and Patrick to honor
that phrase and forget about the censorship for ### bull shit.....

OK, most users will now see an "ad hominem" link after "dislike".

To see and use the link, you need to have a certain minimal reputation on the forum as not a new user and someone with likes.

The rules apply equally to everyone, including myself.

If you have to shit on someone personally, please do it in https://patrick.net/1302979/2017-02-14-thunderdome-thread-insult-other-patrick-net-users-with-impunity-here

rando says

To see and use the link, you need to have a certain minimal reputation on the forum as not a new user and someone with likes.

And that was the day Patrick armed the community of irrational knuckle draggers with the ability to self police. Since no quality or civility really existed many used their new found powers in vengeance. PNet became a blank page, for one to stare at, and contemplate one's life. (Or at least how they waste time on the internet.)

Seriously, I just made a post that said "you racists f* ..." disappear. Where did it go? LOL.

Ironman says

rando says

OK, most users will now see an "ad hominem" link after "dislike".

Catering to the "minority" instead of the "majority" again.

Got to have them ###'s at all cost.... Even Freedom of speech and it won't help a bit.
Take down the "Free Speech Forum" text....

You're still free to make any point you want. Even extremely politically incorrect points.

You're even free to directly insult other users in the thunderdome thread. Or threads. Hell, new rule: any post with "thunderdome" in the title will allow direct insults.

But you're right, now there is a restriction on attacking the person instead of the point in all other threads. So you're slightly less free here.

It seems like a valid tradeoff, hopefully will contribute to higher-quality discussion, and more users, yes.

rando says

A native descent muslim? What did you shoot forth from the prophet himself? LOL

Can you contest a post flagged as ad-hom?
Some Pnet users are about to test you on this. (see vocal opponents above, and "the usual suspects" ... as ... lol ... the usual suspects.)

Rew says

Seriously, I just made a post that said "you racists f* ..." disappear. Where did it go? LOL.

It went into moderation, I got notified, decided that yes "you racist fuck" is in fact attacking the person and not the point, and I deleted it.

If it were not a true ad hominem attack, I'd approve the comment and it would go right back where it was. That would reduce your credibility in the future.

Rew says

Can you contest a post flagged as ad-hom?

No need. I'll see it in the moderation queue, and as the local emperor-god, will make a determination.

Either I'll approve it to put it back and be more skeptical of that flagger's judgement, or I'll delete it and give the flagger mental credit for being correct.

Freedom Of Speech... What a lie

rando says

No need. I'll see them in the moderation queue, and as the local emperor-god, will make a determination.

Will use sparingly. Sounds reasonable, oh keeper of the way, Patrick.

That said, I think it pays to wear your "ignores" and "your ad-hom score" right on your user line. Patrick, you have a community with no real incentive in civil discourse right now. I'm not interested in handle hoping, hiding, or trying to worm out from under my credibility or mistakes.

You are HARBORING TROLLS! DEPORT THEM or let me see them for what they are. :)

I miss the good old days of being able to see what an ass some people had made of themselves. As a new user, finding my way, it was instructive in making choices about who to interact with, and what to put any sort of faith/effort in discussing. That took over a year, back in the housing bubble days, to sort lunacy from value.