patrick.net

Rew says

You just removed a huge chunk of the consumers in America too, by removing the illegals.

The idea that a larger population is always good for the economy is empirically false. Economies can only sustain so many people.

marcus says

But a growing number of consumers and a growing economy go hand in hand.

Do you honestly believe that a higher population is always good no matter how large the current population is? Would having a trillion people on Earth be better for the global economy, the world ecosystem, world peace, etc.?

Is the total dollar amount of the world economy or U.S. GDP the only thing you care about? Hell, why care about the total GDP? That's a meaningless metric. The only metrics that fundamentally matter in an economy are the per capital GDP, which represents the average wealth production of all individuals, and how that wealth is distributed, i.e. the equality metric. Every other metric is just a means to determining those two things.

So would increasing the population of the United States with low-skill workers increase the per capital GDP or increase equality? No. It would have the opposite effect on both metrics. Low-skill workers, especially ones that can be deported at a hat's drop, have no bargaining power, and in a capitalist society, that means they are effectively slave labor. The vast majority of the wealth they produce goes to the owners of the businesses, not to the workers, precisely because the workers have no bargaining power. This is terrible for the economy, but great for the rich, and that is why we have so much illegal immigration.

rando says

Overall, if we were to manage to deport all illegals, wages for Americans would go up (along with the prices for certain things, like strawberries), but also, tax revenues would rise, and the elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have slightly less illegal profit.

Sounds like a win-win for Americans.

Elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have much less illegal profit, and this is a good thing. Their profit is parasitic. They are not producing wealth, but using illegal immigration to increase their power to siphon wealth from workers. This should not be rewarded. It should be punished.

A strong middle class composed mostly of highly skilled, highly productive workers who take home the lion's share of their wealth production is the key to a good economy, a high quality of life, and a society where life is highly valued. Wherever labor is cheap, life is cheap.

Dan8267 says

Elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have much less illegal profit, and this is a good thing. Their profit is parasitic. They are not producing wealth, but using illegal immigration to increase their power to siphon wealth from workers. This should not be rewarded. It should be punished.

It's about maintaining a permanent underclass of peasants that's easily exploitable, which helps drive down wages. This group rotates frequently with fresh, less informed, more easily exploitable workers. Use 'em, and abuse 'em, then lose 'em, for the next batch of illegals/guest workers.

Great intro to Guest Farm Workers. Many are paid in a piece-work system, and make less than minimum wage; nor is there the least job security or overtime.
http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/low-wages/

My kids couldn't even get what use to be typical teenager jobs because of illegals. Jose is mowing all the lawns with his family, delivering papers with his non insured 1988 civic with blown out muffler and 8 tone paint job at 4am, and has made fast food work into a career. They cant get rid of them fast enough.

marcus says

The biggest claim I have a problem with is the idea that paying more for low end labor will affect the pay levels higher up.

Didn't say it would have an effect further up. But deporting illegals would definitely increase the pay rate at the lowest levels, which is important for vast numbers of legitimate citizens.

rpanic01 says

My kids couldn't even get what use to be typical teenager jobs because of illegals. Jose is mowing all the lawns with his family, delivering papers with his non insured 1988 civic with blown out muffler and 8 tone paint job at 4am, and has made fast food work into a career. They cant get rid of them fast enough.

And the police don't stop them because they never show up to court and pay fines.

rando says

Didn't say it would have an effect further up. But deporting illegals would definitely increase the pay rate at the lowest levels, which is important for vast numbers of legitimate citizens.

This is the "Everybody makes more than $100k" or "Everybody is Middle Class" Idea that is stuck in people's heads, when the median household income is $55k.

Median Household Incomes are still lower than what they were in 1999. That's right, in almost 20 more years of neoliberalism and banks first and $20T in debt, median household incomes are lower!

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

It's about maintaining a permanent underclass of peasants that's easily exploitable, which helps drive down wages. This group rotates frequently with fresh, less informed, more easily exploitable workers. Use 'em, and abuse 'em, then lose 'em, for the next batch of illegals/guest workers.

Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.

Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of free markets, actively prevents them. The fools view economics as a religion that has unquestionable dogma, and anyone who dares question the dogma must be a communist. As long as those morons are allowed to dominate the discussion of economics, we'll never be able to transition to a better economic system that encourages productivity rather than parasitic behavior.

If we were to transition to a better system, our GDP would easily increase ten fold without an increase in population or technology. Furthermore, technology would advance much faster. Capitalism is an obsolete Bronze Age technology. It is highly wasteful and often self-sabotaging. It makes any decent engineer cringe.

@Patrick, another problem with the stupid comment limit is that the character count in the counter of the post submission form never agrees with what the server thinks the character count of a post is.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Many are paid in a piece-work system, and make less than minimum wage; nor is there the least job security or overtime.

Oh, there is overtime, just not paid.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Median Household Incomes are still lower than what they were in 1999. That's right, in almost 20 more years of neoliberalism and banks first and $20T in debt, median household incomes are lower!

They would be much lower if not for the great advancement in technology. If we got rid of paleocapitalism, the median household income would have gone up considerably. Even more so if we replaced capitalism with a system that pays everyone x% of their productivity including management and executives. The remaining (100 - x)% goes to the state to provide all the infrastructure and government services needed. x should as close to 100 as possible. 80% is quite realistic.

Dan8267 says

Yeah, we'll have to pay more for food, which is dirt cheap in America.

This !!

We spend less as a percentage of income vs many third world countries as well as 1st world countries of Western Europe

MMR says

We spend less as a percentage of income vs many third world countries as well as 1st world countries of Western Europe

We spend damn little on food compared to our grandparents.

From

In 1930, Americans spent 25% of their disposable income on food. Today it's 10%.

I can't find a graph showing inflation adjusted food prices, but I strongly suspect that inflation adjusted food prices have also dropped dramatically over the past 100 years.

We should be spending more on food. It would let us eat better food and provide living incomes to farmers -- and I mean farmers, not farm owners.

71 percent don't know squat about economics and what puts fruits and vegetables into their stores. They are stupid. Pure ignorance.

So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?

As a supporter of our new patriotic president I took into consideration many of the common points that liberals make when it comes to immigration. I've accepted the fact that things will cost more without this modern day slavery. However, its such a petty increase in comparison to regaining a better standard of living. Less crime, less spent on massive entitlements, less people in prison resulting in less early releases for serious crimes such as burglary, assault, etc... You brain-dead libs can walk hand in hand with these people as we true Americans figure out how to take care of our poor and suffering Citizens that are already here.

What is insane is that we have the same political base advocating for illegal immigration for economic benefit reasons as is advocating for the continued escalation of minimum wages!! The individuals that vote these people in must be purely incapable of critical thinking!

rando says

So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?

They are growing so much food in LA and Santa Ana that the food should be free.

Dan8267 says

Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.

Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of free markets, actively prevents them. The fools view economics as a religion that has unquesti...

Dear God,
Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.
Thank You

Dan8267 says

In 1930, Americans spent 25% of their disposable income on food. Today it's 10%.

Thank You capitalism. We love you.

What happens if the agribusinesses of all sizes realize that without cheap labor and subsidies, their low margins make the whole thing not worth their time and work? Do we import all food from Mexico and Central/South America then? Does the land get reworked as a shiny white McMansion subdivision? Do we have food insecurity going forward?

rando says

So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?

Americans could use a food shortage.

Strategist says

Dear God,

Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.

Thank You

If you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dear God,


Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.


Thank You

If you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.

I gave you a reason. You don't understand economics. Your arguments are so off the mark, it's jaw dropping.
It's like a 10 year old telling a heart surgeon how he should be doing a heart transplant.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.

Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of fr...

this sounds lost

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dear God,



Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.



Thank You

If you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.

I gave you a reason. You don't understand economics. Your arguments are so off the mark, it's jaw dropping.

It's like a 10 year old telling a heart surgeon how he should be doing a heart transplant.

haha there is no argument in that to counter. It sounds like an economics bullshit generator w no unifying theme to the words used. http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/

Strategist says

I gave you a reason. You don't understand economics.

I have a better reason. You don't understand economics. Since that's the bar for this conversation, I win.

If you want to have a conversation where simply asserting your opponent knows nothing isn't a sufficient argument, let me know. Otherwise I see no reason to waste time on you.

Booger says

You were really expecting strawberry pickers to be mostly white???

No, red. They sunburn easily.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/mexico-prepares-to-absorb-a-wave-of-deportees-in-the-trump-era/2017/03/03/a7bd624a-f86c-11e6-aa1e-5f735ee31334_story.html

Castillo said he was arrested when U.S. immigration officials knocked on his door looking for one of his sons, who had been scheduled for deportation. They didn’t find his son and, after checking his ID, picked him up instead.

You know, I think I finally got Rin into economics.

Do you think humanity will give up on cash? The powers that be seem to hate that little loophole.

deepcgi says

Do you think humanity will give up on cash?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with capitalism. Money is money regardless of its form.

condoning illegal activities because they benefit you financially is backward and corrupt.

so now we know what the liberals TRULY stand for: BIGGER POCKETS at the expense of others.

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

so now we know what the liberals stand for: BIGGER POCKETS at the expense of others.

I'm the most liberal person here. How exactly do I stand for bigger pockets at the expense of others? Seems like you are describing big business.

maybe Switzerland needs to import some illegals.

HOW are they going to put groceries in their supermarkets??!?

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

maybe Switzerland needs to import some illegals.

HOW are they going to put groceries in their supermarkets??!?

Lol, excellent point!

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

rando says

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

They still manufacture chocolate and other low-value added goods there as well. Switzerland is very tough on citizenship; they just denied somebody citizenship for nagging her neighbors about vegetarianism too much, she had lived there since a child.

A) Armed to the Teeth
B) Most things decided at the lowest level
C) Massive participatory democracy involving referendums
D) Stingy about Citizenship, they deport people at the drop of a hat.
E) Neutral.

Bad Side:
A) Not keeping your property in supertrim shape will land you in fines or prison really fast.
B) 5 minutes early is on time, you will be fired for being 5 seconds late (Germany on steroids).

Now imagine if a 300+M sized nation imitated this.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Now imagine if a 300+M sized nation imitated this.

Sounds pretty good to me. I particularly love being exactly on time.

rando says

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

It's full with Albanians.

Btw, capitalism is control of the means of production by a small group of owners, while presenting the unrealistic possibility of joining that group to the poor, to keep them from revolting.