patrick.net

Dan8267 says

I'm pretty sure the neo-Nazis and KKK members at this rally are racist.

I was challenging your statement about General Lee, but also your black and white generalized view about those who romanticize the history of the confederacy.

I actually think it's a mistake to be taking down those statues in the south. In time it might happen on it's own, but doing it the moment they can get 51% of the town to vote for it - is an unfortunately divisive move (that plays in to Trumpism). Maybe 50 years later 70% would be for keeping the statues (not because they think slavery was cool) or maybe it would be a super majority wanting to do away with them then.

And of course some of those that are opposed to removing the statues are racist assholes. But that doesn't mean that the statues represent racist assholes.

If I lived there, I would have voted to keep the statue - and I think you know I don't think slavery was good and I'm not a white supremacist.

Tenpoundbass says

Lots of sticks and ball bats considering the police were just there in riot gear clearing out all of the Violent protesters.

It will be interesting to get names and careers of the people with those sticks.

True, those guys were hardly peaceful protesters. They were armed with sticks and not for self-defense.

rando says

They were armed with sticks and not for self-defense.

How do you know it wasn't for self defense ? Many of the white supremacists were in full military gear, including weapons. It certainly turned out the counter protesters needed to defend themselves. The white supremacists were the ones to break through the barriers harassing the counter protesters, while police just watched (for a while). Evidently the counter protesters were a much smaller group.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/12/charlottesville-far-right-crowd-with-torches-encircles-counter-protest-group

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/12/meet-man-middle-unite-right-rally-charlottesville/562571001/

I know it's post truth and everything. But maybe we should find facts before making assumptions.

marcus says

How do you know it wasn't for self defense ?

There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.

marcus says

but also your black and white generalized view about those who romanticize the history of the confederacy.

No different than romanticizing the Nazis. The slavers of the American South were just as vile.

So no, the modern day southerner doesn't get to white wash history and raise the scumbags slavers into hero status. The public has spoken. The removal of the statue was legal. It's time the south stops glorifying its sins and started repenting for them. Until that happens, they are still the villains and they still carry the guilt. The price of forgiveness is repentance.

Tim Aurora says

Actually not. Robert E Lee can be equated to Rommel, the dessert fox.

The only reason the white supremacists want the statue is to say that those were the good old times.

rando says

marcus says

How do you know it wasn't for self defense ?

There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.

At first I thought it might have been a scared driver or road rage incident, but videos released later shows that the driver came down quickly from far away from the protesters. He was only in danger after he attempted murder.

Granted the Antifa were thugs who immediately went in for the kill before they realized how serious the situation was, and if the person who died was one of them, the driver may have a legitimate defense against the charge of murder, but not against the attempted murders.

Trump was right that the bad behavior came from all sides. He should have said it better, but fundamentally, he was right. Both sides in this rally were egging for a fight.

Perhaps we should just bring back the coliseums and let young asshole men fight to the death if they want. That's what this is all about. Lots of bored young men who just want to fight.

Dan8267 says

The only reason the white supremacists want the statue is to say that those were the good old times.

Maybe true. But what about all the other people that want the statue for all kinds of other reasons. That's certainly not the reason I would have voted to keep the statue if I lived there. It's history.

Maybe if I lived there, and was a decider on the city council I could be convinced that keeping the statue is divisive, but at present it would seem that removing it is more divisive because of all the terrified and ignorant little white supremacists that are freaking out over the country becoming more diverse. (what they refer to as white genocide)

That's why dealing with the question of whether to keep the statues or not would be better dealt with a couple or three generations later, after white folk know and are comfortable with their place as just another demographic group and not as a group that's terrified of losing its dominance. Surprisingly, I think that if the decision was put off a few generations, that a vast majority of people would at that time vote to keep the statue, but certainly not as some sort of vindication that slavery was right or that the confederacy should have won.

I think the bottom line is, when you bring weapons to a fight, don't complain when you are attacked. They might not have been actively attacking someone that instant but I'm sure they were gearing towards it if they hadn't already.

jazz_music says

Propaganda notwithstanding, people have every GOOD reason for outrage. Our social plight is so conspicuous that the world is looking at us all to see what we will do to claw back our lives and the powerful are doing everything they can to make any possible civil actions, laughable, brutally punishable and any meaningful changes impossible.

True but it obviously has nothing to do with oppression for being white. Although I understand sour grapes about seemingly better opportunities at times going to minority individuals. Addressing that in some ways makes sense, but not obsessing about it, or worse politicizing it - in a way that works up the ire of the worst kind of right wingers. We all should understand why it happens.

REMINDER: Antifa are literally showing up at Trump rallies disguised as "Trump supporters" giving Nazi salutes.

jazz_music says

Propaganda notwithstanding, people have every GOOD reason for outrage. Our social plight is so conspicuous that the world is looking at us all expecting to see what we will do to claw back our lives and the powerful are doing everything they can to make any possible civil actions, laughable, brutally punishable and any meaningful changes impossible.

Yes, after the attack on Steve Scalise and others, and the recent murder of a Trump-supporting neighbor, people have every reason to be scared.

That and the Berkeley AntiFa attacks, the Chicago and San Diego attacks. Yes, a crazy person finally attacked AntiFa, but that was after more than a year of continuous Left-on-Right violence.
Left Leaders in Hollywood, the Punditry, and even Politicians regularly called everybody against Social Justice Warriors a Nazi; encouraged people to "Punch some people in the Face", called for Generals to Overthrow the President, consistently referred to Trump and his Supporters as Deploreables worthy of a beating, and claimed to be "The Resistance".

Even apolitical people are noticing the very different treatment between this Asshole and Islamic Radical/Black Radicals. The latter get the "Just one person, nevermind their connections, not all Blank are like that." With this one, the "ALL Trump Supporters are like this."

Like the Mayor of Berkeley, the Mayor of Charlottesville came out voiciferously "for the Resistance" and spent the days prior to the March demonizing them and whipping up AntiFa and others with their rhetoric. And yes, AntiFa not only attacked the AltRight but at least one reporter (for The Hill) thinking she was a "Nazi".

I'm thankful his car was stopped after rear ending into the other cars driving down the road. Could have been so much worse. Will be fascinating to see if we prosecute as a domestic terrorist attack or not.

Trump is so very careful when condemnations must be made around Russia/Putin or White Hate Groups. Fascinating for a guy who will happily speak off the cuff and condemn women, the media, liberals, members of his own party, declare a terrorist attack with little info in hand, etc.. So very very careful here Mr. Trump aren't we.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and who we keep as friends says a lot about us, doesn't it.

FortWayne says

Liberals tried to erase history by removing statues of American heroes.

A town voted to sell a statue they no longer wished to have. Who are you to tell them they are wrong? That's the purest form of local democratic voice I can think of in the nation.

Now, if you mean hate groups planning to bring armed conflict to a state/town they don't belong to, by months of planning for armed conflict in the street, well you are right. I find that pretty vile.

In the picture, those are white supremacists trying to deface the statue of Jefferson on campus grounds. This is where you tell me they were justified because they were angry/provoked. Right? I think that's a big bunch of BS, because they don't get a say in what statues a town has in it, unless they can locally vote on that.

See the little white flag near the base? Those are snowflakes standing their ground: young, unarmed, UVA students. Many were pepper sprayed and beaten, with clubs and torches, for standing there as a counter protest to "You will not replace us, Jews will not replace us."

80% of the town voted for Clinton, and the White Nationalists planned a rally for months, brought shields, clubs, helmets, tear gas, pepper spray, an unidentified and armed militia. They did this because the left is violent? Far from it. They wanted violence. They wanted the spectacle.

There is no more alt-right as of Saturday. There are now only white supremacists. Spencer and Kessler are, straight up, Nazis. Pure and simple.

So, to the Right, looks like you have a radicalization problem. What are you going to do about it? Probably not much.

Trump should call the FBI to go after all terror groups: left, right, and muslim in leaning. Will he? Nope!

McMasters : "Of course it was terrorism." :)

Tick tock. I'm waiting Trump. The White Nationalists are lashing out at McMasters again online now. :) Delicious.

Most of what went on in Charlottesville wasn't anything that fell under protected speech. The charming language being used on the White Nationalist side was truly something else. The females on the anti-protest were being told that 'rape by minorities was being wished upon them that night' ... repeatedly and often. That's my word choice, you can figure out what it really was.

When a group of black men, women in scarfs, and brown men with beards, can walk down the street with slung ARs and body armor, in Charlottesville ... wake me.

Here is a "victim" of pepper spraying:

Victim in quotes because, you don't come looking for trouble, and then cry and whine when you find it. These people ... these people ... they can fuck right off.

Also, if you want to get a good look at what most of those so called "Anti-fa" protesters were carrying ...

https://www.pscp.tv/FaithGoldy/1yNGamRYYAgGj?t=12

(Pussy hats I don't think count as weapons these days.)

"The alt-right wasn't allowed ..." LOL
"Cops in riot gear shut down the alt-right." Because they were armed and beating people. Yeah. That happens.
"I'm here to learn about how diverse groups lead to high trust societies." An excuse for racial segregation, or people's desire to 'self segregate'. It's crap.

**Wooom.** In comes the car.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

Liberals tried to erase history by removing statues of American heroes.

Only white supremacists think that Robert Lee, the traitor who murdered countless Americans, is a hero. And no one saying to erase history. They are saying don't glorify evil. A statue of Robert Lee in America is like a statue of Adolph Hitler in Germany. It's despicable.

Furthermore, there was a legal court order to remove the statue. That makes your team criminals for attempting to stop the execution of the court order.

Dan again shows his ignorance. My university, Washington and Lee was named for President (of our university) Lee. His heroism is legendary amongst the scholars of history.

For the record W&L was ranked the top college in the south, besting duke, rice, UNC, and UVa.

More evidence of Soros involvement:

Booger says

More evidence of Soros involvement:

LOL - wrong city and wrong state, but otherwise, nice sleuthing there chief!

Rew says

A town voted to sell a statue they no longer wished to have

I guess the racist residents of Charlottesville also voted in their outrageously racist Vice Mayor?

Rew says

When a group of black men, women in scarfs, and brown men with beards, can walk down the street with slung ARs and body armor, in Charlottesville ... wake me.

1. Start censoring one type of speech, and very soon your own speech will be censored. With this type of thinking, we will end un in a government-enforced echo chamber like in Soviet Union.
2. I do not know about Charlottesville, but here in TX Black Panthers occasionally trot around armed with AR-15's . Please see this: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1029564/pg1
So it is not only white extremists but also black ones who use their right to bear arms and freedom of speech. Should they also be silenced?

Dan8267 says

No different than romanticizing the Nazis. The slavers of the American South were just as vile.

So no, the modern day southerner doesn't get to white wash history and raise the scumbags slavers into hero status. The public has spoken. The removal of the statue was legal. It's time the south stops glorifying its sins and started repenting for them. Until that happens, they are still the villains and they still carry the guilt. The price of forgiveness is repentance.

Problem is that if we decide to leave only symbols which have never been tainted by anything, then we will be left with nearly no symbols at all. In that respect, perhaps US flag should be banned as well, because under it treaties with American Indians were broken, Trail of tears was executed under Stars and Stripes, etc.

How is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears any better than slavery. And why should confederate monuments be removed, while flag under which Indians were marched to 30% of possibility of death is just fine? To me, it looks like a very selective implementation of historical justice.

drBu says

Problem is that if we decide to leave only symbols which have never been tainted by anything,

There's a reason to remove statues that glorify Southern Generals in a war that was about the State's rights to own slaves. 150 years later, we can finally take down the statues that celebrate those 'heroes'. The removal of those statues is a way of saying as a community that we were wrong, and we want to do what we can to acknowledge that mistake and not further aggravate old wounds. There is a reason why only a certain type of people are having a fit about this process, and it says a lot about them.

We committed all sorts of atrocities against the Indians. However, the US flag represents something else. If there is a movement to replace statues of Jackson or Custer with something else, I'd probably think it was a good idea. Removing a statue is not erasing history. It's just recognizing and celebrating different aspects of our past through public art. It doesn't have to be any more dramatic than replacing artwork in a museum, as long as the monuments are not destroyed.

YesYNot says

However, the US flag represents something else.

Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees. And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.

drBu says

1. Start censoring one type of speech, and very soon your own speech will be censored. With this type of thinking, we will end un in a government-enforced echo chamber like in Soviet Union.

When you bring guns, clubs, shields, and pepper spray, you didn't take the high road. That's not free speech and expression. Those are agitators ready to fight. The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.

drBu says

Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees. And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.

America is voting to put the symbols that no longer have a strong contemporary value into museums/other non-prominent public spaces. We aren't running from our past. We are choosing not to embrace and value the darker elements anymore. It's time. It was long long ago. The victors in wars are always the dominant voice, as they should be.

Rew says

When you bring guns, clubs, shields, and pepper spray, you didn't take the high road. That's not free speech and expression. Those are agitators ready to fight. The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.

That's also true for wearing balaclavas, bearing molotov cocktails, gas masks, bats, metal chains, aerosols, etc. I take it?

FortWayne says

Since you were there maybe you could give us info from the ground,... oh wait you weren't, just another left wing with an opinion based on nothing...

You can choose to remain ignorant on the formation of the rally, the leaders who organized it, the groups represented, general timelines of occurrences and major points of violence ... but it doesn't mean others, physically present or not, are choosing to do the same.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

That's also true for wearing balaclavas, bearing molotov cocktails, gas masks, bats, metal chains, aerosols, etc. I take it?

Absolutely true. But in the contest of who was there for violence, I think you are going to find the White Supremacists were overwhelmingly those seeking conflict. It's what they were there for.

You can even be disingenuous and isolate the kid in the dodge charger as just a radicalized fringe lone wolf, not representative of the greater movement. Still won't even come close.

YesYNot says

Removing a statue is not erasing history. It's just recognizing and celebrating different aspects of our past through public art. It doesn't have to be any more dramatic than replacing artwork in a museum, as long as the monuments are not destroyed.

Thing is, these statues are so old they are becoming historical themselves. I saw an article that some city took a balancing approach and decided to add a plaque to the old confederate monument giving it context (the plaque explains there was a strange romanticizing of the war from 1860-1900 and here we are in 2017 looking back at how f'ed those people must have been for thinking that at the time). The city has also preserved a "whites only" lunchcounter as a living history of the Jim Crow era.

In a way, its not terribly different from a cave painting depicting some atrocity from way back. The Mexicans do not run from the history of the Aztecs and human sacrifice. Instead they embrace it as a look back at how fucked up we (their descendants) were. In 500 years when (presumably) there is no discernable race, I doubt these statutes would be so controversial. If I were to take it down, I wish we would preserve it as a testament to our screwed up past.

drBu says

Same can be said about Southern statues. Most Southern soldiers did not own slaves and were just defending their States from Yankees.

Not really. Most Southern soldiers were not generals and don't have statues. They are not being celebrated for their role in defending the right to have slaves.drBu says

And while US flag may "represent something else", it does represent atrocities, and in some cases such as in California, genocide against American indians.

Sure, in that the flag represents the country and all of our history, it represents the bad with the good. Statues of Jackson or Custer would represent our fight against the Indians. Those statues would be analogous to statues of Robert E. Lee et al. The US flag represents a whole lot more than that one particular chapter. Throwing the flag out would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Robert E. Lee statues are the bath water.

Rew says

FortWayne says

Since you were there maybe you could give us info from the ground,... oh wait you weren't, just another left wing with an opinion based on nothing...

You can choose to remain ignorant on the formation of the rally, the leaders who organized it, the groups represented, general timelines of occurrences and major points of violence ... but it doesn't mean others, physically present or not, are choosing to do the same.

One guy did something stupid, everyone else was peacefully protesting removal of statue. Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.
But when a muslim extremist goes on rampage... no group blame there.... yeah you guys have credibility... my ass.

somecrappynumber says

Thing is, these statues are so old they are becoming historical themselves.

That's why they should not be destroyed.

FortWayne says

One guy did something stupid, everyone else was peacefully protesting removal of statue. Interesting how liberals blame the whole group here.

You are so poorly informed in what happened Saturday that the statement above is almost funny.

rando says

There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.

Exactly. I don't condone violence, but the ANTIFA/BLM crowd was begging for an altercation. These people are the real terrorist groups that should be blamed for the violence.

Note that the Mayor and Governor did everything possible to antagonize, and had the police standing back with minimal presence and they weren't keeping the sides away from each other.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-protests-white-nationalists.html

Remember, violence and chaos is usually sought by the Party not in power.

Goran_K says

rando says

There has never yet been a crowd armed with baseball bats and not hoping for a fight.

Exactly. I don't condone violence, but the ANTIFA/BLM crowd was begging for an altercation. These people are the real terrorist groups that should be blamed for the violence.

Left does condone AntiFa violence.

Rew says

America is voting to put the symbols that no longer have a strong contemporary value into museums/other non-prominent public spaces. We aren't running from our past. We are choosing not to embrace and value the darker elements anymore.

If they would not have contemporary value, they would not elicit so much emotions. And US flag is a very dark element to Native Americans. Why is it treated differently from Confederate statues?

Rew says

The police were right to disband them after they clashed and beat people.

That is absolutely true. When they start violence, they should be arrested, no matter what political ideas they have.

FortWayne says

Left does condone AntiFa violence.

That's the problem. The leftist media does not call out ANTIFA or BLM as the terrorist groups they are which IMO only emboldens them to keep acting this way.

The funny part is that these groups actually think they could win a war against the conservative right using violence. The truth is they can't. They would lose badly and it would be quickly apparent.