patrick.net

just any guy says

If people in high COL states are so financially stretched thin because they bought way too much house and then can't take some hit on their tax deductions, that's on them. This is why so many people are screaming because they're hanging on by a thread so they can have that house on the hill and the Beamer. This is the reckoning for reckless financial spending, and I love it.

You are extremely mistaken. They don't underwrite large mortgages based on tax benefits. People can certainly foot the bill - but how is fair to them, when people on either side of the income levels are catching a break? The UMC is arguably the most talented and hard-working of the bunch.

The next time you need intense medical or legal assistance, or want your vehicle to stay safe when you crash - I hope you remember what you typed here.

anon_8cbcb says

Timeout - not all of these comments are uncivil. Just need to avoid the personal attack types. It's a pain, but I'm really on board with cleaning this place up.

Some of the lefties have gone off the deep end just like when Trump got elected.

So several personal attacks got flagged as uncivil and someone decided to flag several of Gorans posts as uncivil, even though they had no personal attacks whatsoever.

I’m sure Patrick will clean it up when he has time.

I’ll also note that I was previously one of the worst offenders when it came to personal attacks. I’m not gonna totally get into why except that it was a lot of fun when it REALLY pissed off another poster. Notice though that when Patrick expressed a desire to rid the board of such postings, I immediately fell in line. Personally I think the board is better with out moderation, but it’s Patrick’s site and he gets to make the decisions. If I don’t like it, I can stop posting and reading. I still like it.

anon_01c37 says

Goran_K says

Trickle down does absolutely work. There is more personal wealth in the Western World than there has been individually in recorded human history across any nation on the Earth. Just because there are poor people doesn't mean that a highly profitable and hot private sector ISN'T a good thing.

Apple has a market cap approaching a Trillion dollars. How many people does the company employ? How many have cushy benefits plans? How many have bought nice homes in the Bay Area due to their huge salaries? How is this not an example of trickle down economics?

If they are doing so well then why do they need a tax break?

Sniper says

anon_8cbcb says

Timeout - not all of these comments are uncivil. Just need to avoid the personal attack types. It's a pain, but I'm really on board with cleaning this place up.

Fucking White Male says

Some of the lefties have gone off the deep end just like when Trump got elected.

That's errc hitting all the posts as uncivil. It's Saturday, he's developed a pattern of going off the deep end on Saturdays. Just go back and look at his postings on Nov. 11th and go look at Comment Jail from that date. You'll see.

Look at you lying again. Why do you need to lie so frequently?

errc, stop feeding him. There is NOTHING TO BE GAINED.

Sniper says

errc says

That's errc hitting all the posts as uncivil. It's Saturday, he's developed a pattern of going off the deep end on Saturdays. Just go back and look at his postings on Nov. 11th and go look at Comment Jail from that date. You'll see.

Look at you lying again. Why do you need to lie so frequently?

A lie??

Really?

How many comments do you have in Comment Jail today?

How many went in last Saturday?

Do you have a problem with facts?

https://patrick.net/comment_jail

Why do you accuse OTHERS for what you do here on a regular basis? Projecting?

It's nice that you told Patrick you were going to clean up your act? Too bad that didn't last more than a day.

Lol go ahead and ask Patrick himself. He might not want to interact with you being that he banned you from his site and you spit in his face and return to harass people anyways. I don’t even have the ability to mark posts as uncivil. So you’ve been caught in a lie again. Shocking!

NewOldUser says

The next time you need intense medical or legal assistance, or want your vehicle to stay safe when you crash - I hope you remember what you typed here.

I'm 100% comfortable with what I typed here because I don't live beyond my means and I save like a motherfucker. Medical or legal assistance is nothing when you've planned your life and expenditures properly. It's called peace of mind.

NewOldUser says

People can certainly foot the bill - but how is fair to them, when people on either side of the income levels are catching a break?

#1 - The folks paying over $500K in mortgage interest and over $10K in property taxes are not poor. If they are, that's their mistake.
#2 - How is it fair? Why should renters have to subsidize taxes for homeowners?

NewOldUser says

anon_f1625 says

He/She got screwed at least twice - first time was at birth.

@WookieMan, this is what @Patrick is talking about.

@Patrick, anons probably should be blocked at this time. The above is someone who was put on ignore but still wants to troll. Why give them the chance?

NewOldUser,

Please stay on topic. Discuss how shitty the tax plan (not mentioning whose it is - saying on topic) is for the ... surprise, surprise... the little guy.

just any guy says

#1 - The folks paying over $500K in mortgage interest

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?

bob2356 says

just any guy says

#1 - The folks paying over $500K in mortgage interest

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?

Assuming a 20% down, roughly $650K mortgage. Plus, the plan is to grandfather existing homeowners to the $1M limit.

just any guy says

Why should renters have to subsidize taxes for homeowners?

I haven't the slightest clue what you're referring to on this point. Please elaborate how renters cover any costs for owner-occupied SFH?

bob2356 says

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?

Assuming 4% rate, a single year's worth of the mortgage would be: $12,500,000.

Looks dubious...

NewOldUser says

bob2356 says

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?

Assuming 4% rate, a single year's worth of the mortgage would be: $12,500,000.

Someone who can read. Excellent.

just any guy says

bob2356 says

just any guy says

#1 - The folks paying over $500K in mortgage interest

How big a mortgage do you need to pay over 500k in mortgage interest?

Assuming a 20% down, roughly $650K mortgage

That's a hell of an interest rate to pay 500k interest a year on a 650k mortgage. Loan sharks do mortgages now?

@ Patrick - Was out for a few days and missed most of this rubbish. In hindsight, not sure why this one is a #housing topic though. The OP title is about the tax plan. Yes MID has to do with housing and the cap gains proposed changes, but outside of that, this tax plan conversation is mainly political. It's a tax plan and not a housing plan.

The responses here are generally why I tend to stay out of the politics topic, which is where this post probably belongs IMO. There's cross over for sure, but this is tax policy, applied to housing. Tax policy is 100% political.

bob2356 says

That's a hell of an interest rate to pay 500k interest a year on a 650k mortgage. Loan sharks do mortgages now?

Indeed.

NewOldUser says

I haven't the slightest clue what you're referring to on this point. Please elaborate how renters cover any costs for owner-occupied SFH?

Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?

anonymous says

Large Job Growth Unlikely to Follow Tax Cuts for the Rich and Corporations.

Fox news and breitbart says it will. Don't be a party pooper by bringing up the fact it never has in the past. It's different this time.

just any guy says

NewOldUser says

I haven't the slightest clue what you're referring to on this point. Please elaborate how renters cover any costs for owner-occupied SFH?

Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?

Because renters don't have to fix anything, do upgrades, replace roofs, paint, replace carpet, etc. In the long run, renters come out ahead versus getting the tax deduction.

just any guy says

Why don't renters get a tax deduction on their monthly housing costs like homeowners do?

Say what? How does the mean that renters are subsidizing homeowners?

You do realize how much more SALT (the money that funds the county for infrastructure and the local school districts) homeowners pay, right? Renters pretty much use all that stuff for free because renting is a cash business, meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.

NewOldUser says

You do realize how much more SALT (the money that funds the county for infrastructure and the local school districts) homeowners pay, right? Renters pretty much use all that stuff for free because renting is a cash business, meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.

WTF do you think the rent pays for?

NewOldUser says

meaning that renters don't pay any SALT outside of income and sales tax.

Well at least not directly. They do pay rent which the landlord uses to pay property taxes so indirectly renters do pay property taxes.

Enough guys.

Sniper says

You don't think a landlord passes all his costs through to the renters in the total rent payment?

Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand. What the owner pays in mortgage/SALT is irrelevant to what the market charges for rent. (except in the very long run)

For example--if there are 1000 houses for rent in a local market like Detroit, it doesn't matter that the owner of one may have large mortgage, that house will probably rent for less than his costs.

That's true.

A landlord cannot simply pass any and all costs on to renters. Rents are set by ability to pay it, not by what the landlord thinks he needs.

NewOldUser says

taking the position that the $200k to $500k taxpayers are not "middle class"

Some take this position? Ridiculous! Everybody knows that the middle extends 3 standard deviations from the algebraic average.

If you are in the bottom 1%, you are poor. If you are in the top 1%, you are rich. Everybody else is middle class.

Hold on a second. Has the plan been finalized? If so, where can one find an unbiased summary of actions (not anticipated effects). Also, I thought the standard deduction was going to be raised. Just a thought before this devolves into pure red vs blue.

anon_8f378 says

Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand.

That is the definition of a free market.

anon_8f378 says

Actually no. In a free market--price is set by supply and demand. What the owner pays in mortgage/SALT is irrelevant to what the market charges for rent. (except in the very long run)

For example--if there are 1000 houses for rent in a local market like Detroit, it doesn't matter that the owner of one may have large mortgage, that house will probably rent for less than his costs.

EXACTLY. The rent is the rent is the rent.
The renter pays for the rights granted in the lease agreement, explicit terms such as "pet fee" or similar, AND NOTHING MORE.

The landlord is obligated to pay the property taxes. And maintenance. And repairs. Individual balance sheets are irrelevant. What happens when the unit is vacant? The landlord pays the taxes. Case closed.

Just because you bought a car does not mean you paid the company's research & development costs. You paid for a fucking car.

jazz_music says

All American oligarchs have to do is to join with Russian oligarchs and the rest of the world's oligarchs will become irrelevant without any war needed.

Jeff Bezos. Elon "Subsidy" Musk. Bill Gates.

All of whom are firmly on the side of crushing Middle America with mass immigration and H-1Bs. All of whom opposed Trump.

As did the Koch Brothers.

We know who their preferred candidate was...

anonymous says

Yes, Bezos and the WaPo lobbied incessantly for Hillary, who is Cheap Labor's best friend. Even in her Private Prisons they'll use inmates to crush honest labor.

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

The plan is to rape everyone who works for a living and fist them to death and shoot them in the face and to make life for the investing class a tax free experience, as the Founding Fathers intended.

Yes, the primary injustice in our current tax system is that actual productive work is taxed much more highly than capital gains is:

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/12/11/long-term-capital-gains-tax-rates-in-2017.aspx

It's really amazing that this is never in the press. It should be the headline every day.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

As did the Koch Brothers.

We know who their preferred candidate was.

Sure I'll bite. Who do you believe the koch bro's preferred candidate was?

Patrick says

Yes, the primary injustice in our current tax system is that actual productive work is taxed much more highly than capital gains is:

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/12/11/long-term-capital-gains-tax-rates-in-2017.aspx

It's really amazing that this is never in the press. It should be the headline every day.

What press do you read? Long term capital gains taxes have been discussed time and time and time again for years and years.

Anyone with a high enough income and large enough potential capital gains for these changes to matter already are watching and planning for this.

bob2356 says

Sure I'll bite. Who do you believe the koch bro's preferred candidate was?

I suspect they hoped for Hillary as many insider Republicans like Kristol and French and Wilson and the rest of the Bowtie Country Club Crew clearly did.

Being such huge boosters of the Republicans for decades but not endorsing the winner in 2016, they showed themselves to be the Corporatists they really are.

The Winner has pushed deregulation and tax cutting while in office. I suspect the "Libertarian" Koch Brother's dependence on illegal immigrants and government subsidies for their many low-value added resource extraction enterprises made them unwilling to support a Nationalist.

I have seen report that people's tax liability goes down across the board. Is this true, and does this account for the supposed loss of MI deduction?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

I suspect they hoped for Hillary as many insider Republicans like Kristol and French and Wilson and the rest of the Bowtie Country Club Crew clearly did.

Being such huge boosters of the Republicans for decades but not endorsing the winner in 2016, they showed themselves to be the Corporatists they really are.

The jokes on you, though, as the Koch Bros. have proven to have more influence than Bannon ever will. They're getting everything they could have every wanted and more with Trump. The tax plan. Deregulation. All they have to do is let Trump pretend that he's doing something about immigration.

steverbeaver says

I have seen report that people's tax liability goes down across the board. Is this true, and does this account for the supposed loss of MI deduction?

No, it's not true. Many middle class taxpayers will pay more under both Senate and House plans.

Sniper says

Wrong, why do you libbies keep pushing this lie. The majority will get a BENEFIT.

Which tax plan is this? House? Senate?

Link?