patrick.net

Rew says

It's not middle class tax relief. It's an inequality boosting bill.

Then why are so many democrats supporting it?

anon_66227 says

will

We make very similar income and Senate plan shows me saving $8k (flat under house plan).

Do you have a mortgage that you deduct ?

Fucking White Male says

I know people who make in the hundreds of K's annually.

How the hell do you people find time to post here?

Work smarter not harder? Spouse makes a substantial portion of the income? Those would be my ideas why a high incomer has time to Dick around here.

Strategist says

Then why are so many democrats supporting it?

House:


Senate:

makes half a million bucks per year
"worries" that cheap housing will decrease before buying a place

sounds dubious...

makes half a million bucks per year
calls other people "stupid" and "greedy"

Sniper says

Why weren't you worrying about that when Obama added $10 Trillion to the debt?

Why were you worrying back then but not now?

Strategist says

Then why are so many democrats supporting it?

Which Dems support it? I know of none.

They all got paid.

WookieMan says

Spouse makes a substantial portion of the income

yup ..that's it for me ... HHI is split more or less 50/50

Sniper says

First, because the bill hasn't been signed into law yet, so these "debt claims" aren't supported by... well.. nothing...

Multiple GAO evaluations are "nothing"?

Was it included in the bill-can't find info anywhere about weather the amendment was added and passed.

Rand Paul's Repeal FATCA amendment was introduced into the 'Manager's Amendment' (a collection of individual amendments). It is #1623 here: https://www.rpc.senate.gov/tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-reconciliation-tracker ... The MA was passed, so then Repeal FATCA is included in HR1.

The strange thing is that there has not been a chorus of "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead" from anyone. No news coverage, either. I'm starting to doubt what I'm seeing.

Sniper says

Second, the debt "projection" is just that, a "projection", and we know how well these projections work out when it comes to reality.

Yes we know how these projections work out. There will be a lot more debt than projected.

Sniper says

FortWayne says

Some people are screaming "greatness", others are screaming "bloody murder".

That's all because of what side of the aisle they are on and where they get their news.

anon_ca717 says

How does any of you know how it affects you when there are changes being made every day?

One person who gets it.

I've tried at least 3 different tax scenario calculators, and they all came back with wide ranging numbers that weren't even close to each other.

It’s not that difficult to figure out....the new tax bills make it nearly impossible to itemize unless you have a $600k to million dollar mortgage and a ton of charitable contributions.

With no SALT deduction to combine with mortgage interest and property tax deduction most married people won’t get over the $24k standard deduction threshold. So after that you basically just calculate your income after 401k contributions based on the new brackets. And tack on the $2k credit per child.

Irrelavent for the same reasons trump was elected At this point Change for the sake of change Is desired Once Washington wraps itself around the idea of change then it can be focused in a particular direction right now this moment in Washington there is no such thing as change
anon_e0eaf says

anon_ca717 says

How does any of you know how it affects you when there are changes being made every day?

In regards to the tax code

Trump is the icebreaker the ice must be broken Before the ships of pork Can Sail in their various directions

Libbies take note. :
In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt called for “bold, persistent experimentation” and said: “It is common sense to take a method and try it; if it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.”

anon_e0eaf says

And tack on the $2k credit per child.

Yah that’s a pretty nice bump for working families! It’s about time they started recognizing the work and sacrifice it requires to raise children in this economy and awarded a little financial incentive to do so! The only alternative to Americans having children is importing more third world people to do that for us.

Quigley says

anon_e0eaf says

And tack on the $2k credit per child.

Yah that’s a pretty nice bump for working families! It’s about time they started recognizing the work and sacrifice it requires to raise children in this economy and awarded a little financial incentive to do so! The only alternative to Americans having children is importing more third world people to do that for us.

Crony Capitalism ftw

BlueSardine says

Libbies take note. :
In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt called for “bold, persistent experimentation” and said: “It is common sense to take a method and try it; if it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.”

Newsflash--trickle down has been tried already. And it failed.

errc says

Crony Capitalism ftw

One of your less coherent posts. And that’s bad company lately.

BlueSardine says

In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt called for “bold, persistent experimentation” and said: “It is common sense to take a method and try it; if it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.”

The Great Depression and top of the Obama boom. Same thing.

Quigley says

errc says

Crony Capitalism ftw

One of your less coherent posts. And that’s bad company lately.

I was doing my best mell impression, guess it fell flat.

As an American, I don’t support the Fed Gov picking winners and losers, and giving some citizens privileges that they force the unprivileged to pay for. It’s obvious that for you, all that matters is wether or not it personally saves or costs you any money

errc says

I don’t support the Fed Gov picking winners and losers

Who are the winners being picked?

HappyGilmore says

Winners: Owners of private jets. People with estates > $11MM, people with large holdings in stocks

Losers: Everyone else.

That doesn't seem accurate. You don't think a 24k standard deduction helps a middle class family?

HappyGilmore says

People with estates > $11MM, people with large holdings in stocks

How many people fit that profile versus how many people fit squarely in the middle class and will benefit form the $24K standard deduction?

HappyGilmore says

Of course. But removal of the exemptions hurts them. Removal of student loan interest hurts them.

I'm talking in totality(and in general)--winners are the super rich. Losers are everyone else.

Those are good moves IMO. The Department of Education just released data that showed that the student loan default rate from October 2013 to October 2017 has increased to 11.5 percent (roughly 600,000 defaulters). This is unacceptable. Those losses are tax payer subsidized. No one is forcing those people to take loans and taking incentives AWAY from bad borrowers is a good thing IMO.

Still, I've done the math and the 24k deduction is huge for people who aren't over borrowing. not to mention the lower tax brackets per income level overall. Also this is the largest drop to small business and corporations in 20 years (more business expansion and jobs coming).

The only people this tax cut seems to hurt are "over borrowers", people who borrowed far too much to buy a home, or borrowed far too much taxpayer money to give to some liberal arts schools.

Net positive, these tax cuts are far better for the economy.

Goran_K says

HappyGilmore says

Of course. But removal of the exemptions hurts them. Removal of student loan interest hurts them.

I'm talking in totality(and in general)--winners are the super rich. Losers are everyone else.

Those are good moves IMO. The Department of Education just released data that showed that the student loan default rate from October 2013 to October 2017 has increased to 11.5 percent (roughly 600,000 defaulters). This is unacceptable. Those losses are tax payer subsidized. No one is forcing those people to take loans and taking incentives AWAY from bad borrowers is a good thing IMO.

Still, I've done the math and the 24k deduction is huge for people who aren't over borrowing. not to mention the lower tax brackets per income level overall. Also this is the largest drop to small business and corporations in 20 years (more business expansion and jobs c...

As an American Capitalist, i see a very simple solution: bring back Capitalism so that student loan debt is discharged in chapter 7 bankruptcy. The market will sort it out

HappyGilmore says

Access to education should not be only available to the wealthy. That's bad policy for the US--an educated population is vastly superior to an uneducated population.

Have you seen millenials? They are already vastly uneducated despite a liberal arts degree and have high unemployment as it is.

Giving "free money" to students is not the way to give "access to education", that's just enabling bad decisions and causing inflationary pressure on the cost of education.

Nope--I've done the calculations too. Huge net negative. Much better off simply sending all taxpayers $10K.

I doubt that. You can't even come up with a situation where it actually hurts someone who isn't up to their necks in debt.

errc says

As an American Capitalist, i see a very simple solution: bring back Capitalism so that student loan debt is discharged in chapter 7 bankruptcy. The market will sort it out

As an american capitalist, then you should also be in favor of loaning money based on projected ability to pay back? Right Mr. Capitalist?

Goran_K says

errc says

As an American Capitalist, i see a very simple solution: bring back Capitalism so that student loan debt is discharged in chapter 7 bankruptcy. The market will sort it out

As an american capitalist, then you should also be in favor of loaning money based on projected ability to pay back? Right Mr. Capitalist?

Of course

HappyGilmore says

Access to education should not be only available to the wealthy. That's bad policy for the US--an educated population is vastly superior to an uneducated population.

Just like our expensive healthcare system, when the government subsidizes something, it becomes much more expensive as it just increases the demand.

Instead of shoveling more of our tax dollars into education loans, we should be working with universities to come up with ways of reducing the cost of tuition. There is absolutely no reason why a 4 year degree should cost hundreds of thousands of dollars saddling our kids with a big fat mortgage right out of college.

Reducing education costs will require eliminating many ridiculous administrative positions to manage SJW nonsense and getting back to educating.

socal2 says

Instead of shoveling more of our tax dollars into education loans, we should be working with universities to come up with ways of reducing the cost of tuition. There is absolutely no reason why a 4 year degree should cost hundreds of thousands of dollars saddling our kids with a big fat mortgage right out of college.

Yep--I agree with that. Education is similar to healthcare, however, in that it has a very inelastic demand curve. People need education.

Goran_K says

Still, I've done the math and the 24k deduction is huge for people who aren't over borrowing. not to mention the lower tax brackets per income level overall. Also this is the largest drop to small business and corporations in 20 years (more business expansion and jobs coming).

So show us the math. How did you do the math when the bill isn't out of committee yet and there are two versions with some big differences?

Yo be fair, every traditional family of 4 already has a bigger than $24k standard deduction now. You get $12700 standard fling married and your 2 kids and 2 parents get a $4050 personal deduction each which comes to $28900 deduction currently. The only thing that saves them from getting screwed is the large increase in child credit and extending it to $500k income families is smart too.

I’m just so glad I didn’t roll my wife’s student loans into our home equity loan this past year like I was going to so we could write off the interest. That would have sucked since equity loan interest write offs are going away for sure.

Goran_K says

HappyGilmore says

Winners: Owners of private jets. People with estates > $11MM, people with large holdings in stocks

Losers: Everyone else.

That doesn't seem accurate. You don't think a 24k standard deduction helps a middle class family?

HappyGilmore says

If I had an uncivil button, I would have used it on this comment. I'd expect better from a moderator.

You misused the uncivil button before so that's probably why you lost it.

I'm simply asking you to come up with a situation where the tax reform hurts someone. Give me a scenario.

anon_faba8 says

So show us the math. How did you do the math when the bill isn't out of committee yet and there are two versions with some big differences?

Based on the proposed changes, the majority of those who are not in abnormally high debt, will experience a pretty good windfall.

Can you come up with a situation where the tax reform hurts someone who isn't in debt up to their necks with student loans and a jumbo mortgage? Give me a scenario.

HappyGilmore says

Yep--I agree with that. Education is similar to healthcare, however, in that it has a very inelastic demand curve. People need education.

Sure - but people shouldn't take out massive student loans to attend ridiculously expensive private or Ivy league schools just to get a humanities degree.

We need to increase competition in education and allow for the accreditation of more online education and commuter school options instead of shoveling more tax dollars at future students.

Goran_K says

Still, I've done the math and the 24k deduction is huge for people who aren't over borrowing.

I will be huge for the Millennial population, who is becoming the biggest age group, since very few own houses and rent and are staying away from having kids, but getting pets. That $24K will be like hitting the lottery for them. Just think how much avocado toast they can buy with that windfall.