patrick.net

Fair question for you, if all these people were sneaking in and out of the castles how do you know about them? I can’t really picture people bragging about it.

Fair question. I used to really be into this stuff. Much of the historical record from that period comes from various diaries and journals, as well as what execution records and other inventories were kept. Keep in mind that a functioning castle had all kinds of religious officials, military officials, royals, guilds and serfs. All of them had families. There were all kinds of agendas, internal alliances, and subterfuge.

Hell, more than a couple people were "snuck out" of the Tower of London.

Hell hell hell, there are more illegal drugs inside many US State and Federal prisons than there are in some medium sized suburbs.

My point is walls are antithetical to human nature. People always want to do stuff to circumvent barriers, even at great risk to their own freedom, health or even life. I imagine they always will, no matter how many of them you kill.

And the Great Wall of China didn't work so well. It had some success, but it didn't keep out any marauders. It just kept them from hauling too much booty back home from their raids.

Malcolm,

Would it be better if he was Mexican? Should only Mexicans be searched?

Is it just me, or is incremental fascism the order of the day?

So you're basically saying that we should allow terrorists to come and destroy us. We must end freedom to save freedom. Why do you hate our Freedom(TM)?

Uh, yes. Presumably the border patrol down here is not looking for illegal Canadians crossing in from Mexico.

And to add to that Glen, I have a small problem with ANYONE being searched without any cause whatsoever. Something about some 4th amendment thing.

Glen,

WRT point 3, working for lower wages, If the comparable wages for an immigrant back home is far lower than what we'd consider a "reasonable minimum wage" here, then you'll be left with another country exerting a strong downward pressure on our standards of living. I'd prefer to avoid that as much as possible.

I think there's a good argument for taking steps to engineer a better society in such countries. (Cutting off remittances would be a start, but I don't see an easy way off doing it, and there are some ethical arguments against encouraging revolutions by directly pressuring the poor.) There's also a national security interest, as violent crime from the various drug cartels is increasingly spilling over the border.

GC, I really think Peter has some good points about very liberal work visas.

I propose that fences are antithetical to human nature, and especially to American nature.

To this, I say:

"Good fences make good neighbors"
--Robert Frost

The completely open-borders policy might work great for two countries that are socioeconomically very similar, like U.S. and Canada, but is nuts for Mexico & the U.S. I do not view a boder fence as a magic 'silver bullet". Just a common sense measure that, along with other common-sense measures *can* make a difference (less welfare for illegals, consistent enforcement of immigration law, hard-to-fake employee IDs, penalties for employers, etc.). If we can afford to send XX thousand troops to Iraq for extended duty, then we can afford to do a better job of protecting our borders.

There are so many illegals doing menial jobs because the middle class America wants to live the life of the Vanderbilts. I am pretty sure if the average American family lives a frugal life, there won’t be any illegals in this country, because there won’t be any jobs for them.

Ahh... the old "they do the jobs Americans just won't do" canard. GC, exactly WHO do think did these jobs (back when they paid better wages) before our de-facto open borders policy went into full effect? Who does them NOW in places with low immigration rates (Australia, NZ)?

And exactly 27 years ago we had the Cuban boatlifts. This is what I mean by politicizing illegal immigration. Some wetbacks are welcomed, some are not.

There are so many illegals doing menial jobs because the middle class America wants to live the life of the Vanderbilts. I am pretty sure if the average American family lives a frugal life, there won’t be any illegals in this country, because there won’t be any jobs for them.

If decent wages are paid, they will be filled by legal immigrants, there will be a supply of legal immigrants/part timers that will work in McDonalds, make up hotel rooms etc. Many of the fast food places wouldn't even hire anybody that is not a migrant (I see a lot of Spanish help wanted signs in Chinese restaurants).

And for those of you in SF who think, immigration wasn't always a controversy here, please take a second to reflect on the history of China Town.

HARM,

Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don't think we get 30M new immigrants each year.

Australia's biggest advantage is, they are not bordered by any country. Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees :-)

Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees

There were a lot of Portuguese migrants working in Toronto in construction, many were deported and some advocated started rallies with slogans like "nobody is illegal". The problem I have with that is, if you say "nobody is illegal", then what do you do, open up to anyone and everyone that wants to come. It seems to be the immigrant advocate and the far-left's position is so extreme that it does not make any sense to me.

So if we allow all the illegal immigrants to become citizens, then by definition there are these jobs that no legal immigrants will do, then who's going to fill these jobs? There will be no fix if the employers are never penalized.

"I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends."

You know, the kids who did that may look back on it as the time of their lives. There is a bonding and sense of worth caused by such a struggle that would not come from persuing the flashiest car or ipod.

Question for those on the west coast. Are they offering over there like they are here on Long Island? $40k free money for a down payment and another $20k to fix it up; it's insane!!!!!

oops! here is the link.

Want to seal the border? Take a lesson from the pros.

Encourage Mexico to go "Peoples Republic" Then the new General Secretary and Politburo will effectively seal it airtight from the south side. Just like the DDR's anti-imperialist wall.

Allah,

That is insane. If they quit handing out money, property priced will come down to affordable levels.

I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the "poor."

Allah,

I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the “poor.”

Precisely! They are offering this to anyone who makes up to 30% more than the median income which means not just the poor...and that is why I wrote this.

Are they doing something like this on the west coast?

I worked in England for a summer and the visa form asked me to indicate my race. The choices were:

When I last arrived at SFO, the ICE official asked what my religion was.
I could not believe what I was hearing. This was a Filipino officer. I told him I did not see that question on the declaration form :)

Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don’t think we get 30M new immigrants each year.

OO,

While the above may be true for each nation as a whole, immigration as a % of California's population would be much, much higher. CA, as a border state (and chief entry piont of choice from Mexico) absorbs a far greater share of immigrants, illegal and otherwise, than any other. I seriously doubt if ND or Montana gets a whole lot of immigration. And if you factor in children of illegals here (who automatically get citizenship), the numbers climb a lot higher.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

United States Net migration rate:
3.05 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)

Australia Net migration rate:
3.78 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)

Even if Lake Michigan has an average depth of 2 feet, you can still drown in the middle of it. Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Actually, OO's figures were wrong. 30 million new immigrants would represent a +10% net migration rate, not a 1% rate.

I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends.

Excuse me, but when did anyone here say anything about life in other countries NOT being tough? Actually, that's part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).

they laugh at America for allowing them to invade and breed like roaches while we pay the way.

I don't want to be the PC police, but that was a sickeningly racist comment.

Betty,

I am apparently the person who does NOT believe that they buy social security numbers.. which shows you didn't do me the respect of bothering to read what I actually wrote. Before offering me your blessings why not doing me the courtesy of reading before responding. I simply asked you to demonstrate *how* you know they actually bought these SSNs instead of one of the other less nefarious ways in which they may have obtained them, legal or illegal. Not all "borrowed" SSNs are cases of identity theft.

I've had my SSN and credit used in identity fraud also, by the way. About 2 years ago. And it had nothing to do with Mexicans or illegal immigrants. And moreover, it was a pain in the ass but ultimately cost me $0 and actually caused my credit to end up 10 pts higher than before it happened (perhaps coincidentally).

I had an uncle end up in an identity snafu too, which was much harder for him to shake. Somehow he got mixed up with someone else of the exact same name and somewhat similar SSN who'd defaulted on a mortgage. You know, that took him over a year to clear up, and cost him a couple thousand $ in lawyer fees to force resolution (and he filed a small claims action to recover the fees which was remanded to superior court, so he couldn't pursue that either).

Off Topic

Have been following a house in Alamo which is being sold by our previous realtor. It has been listed twice since last November at $2,699,000.

Price dropped to $2,399,000 last week. It is now only $400,000 over Zillow's zestimate.

What a deal !

Actually, that’s part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).

It sounds like, basically, you just don't want to see any poor people. Better for them to be even poorer in their native country than come to the US and offend your sensibilities.

Glen,

If you're so in favor of completely open borders, then why don't you welcome some of these fine folks into your house --and volunteer to feed, clothe, insure and employ them too, while you're at it.

HARM

Walls and secure borders are not the same thing. Many dissimilar countries have very secure borders yet don't build walls or fences.

Borders are porous. They always will be. The challenge is to secure that against critical, defensible threats, like from armies or surging mobs.

Building giant walls has, at best, a rapidly diminishing return on investment no matter how you measure it. I'm all for some of your other proposals, like holding employers accountable.

As an employer myself, I find it doubly criminal that other employers utilize illegals, which hurts honest employers as well as taxpaying society while they profit and smugly claim they're anti-illegal immigrant.

HARM,

All else equal, if I were looking for a roommate, employee, or opportunity to do charity work, I would be just as likely to choose an immigrant as a US citizen. I fail to see why I shouldn't.

For the record (before someone else puts more words in my mouth), I am not against all forms of immigration or for closing the borders, or for means-testing all immigrants. That's ridiculous. I would even be in favor of expanding current immigration quotas/limits, and allowing more work visas, if WE WOULD JUST START ENFORCING IMMIGRATION LAWS AND PUNISHING OFFENDERS.

Glen,

Good for you. Problem is, when national immigration policy is based on weepy bleeding heart "oh, how sad, they're so poor" emotions, what you get is an uncontrollable and unassimilated flood of "diversity" along your border states, along with all the wonderful "benefits" it brings (poverty, high crime rate, lower wages, overwhelmed deteriorating infrastructure, high uninsured rates, diseases like TB that were once eradicated here, etc., etc.

@Randy H,

Fair enough. I suspect that removing eligibility for welfare subsidies from illegals and a few well publicized cases of punishing employers would quickly "get the word out" and might just make building a wall unnecessary, or at least, a lot less necessary.

HARM,

you are right, I can't even do simple arithmetics. Still, I doubt if we get 3M net inflow. But you are right in pointing out that CA is the major receptor of all these immigrants (which is why I always think that the Pacific Northwest is a much nicer place).

I am not pro illegal immigration either, I earned my status and hope others to do the same. I am particularly against importing old parents into this country, even on a legal basis. Elderly parents have no reasons to be here unless they can entirely fund their own medicare and retirement. But I just think border control will never work.

We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I've been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.

The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.

@ Malcolm

What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. ...shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!

Oooops! I meant @Allah

What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. …shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!

We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I’ve been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.

The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.

Ha ha --now there's some out-of-the-box thinking. And not a bad idea at that.

Well NAFTA was supposed to be that subsidy by removing trade tarrifs.

The corruption in Mexico is so bad you almost would rather deal with China. They at least speak English, but their government actively is promoting commerce and growth. The Mexican government is more like dealing with the mafia. Every single thing is a shakedown to those buggers. The whole culture is screwed up to where you would rather say forget it. When I was starting out in life, I worked for a company which made dog leashes and we had a little maquiladora. It was a joke, my boss told me all kinds of stories about every semi official with a badge coming by for their payoff. He just made up a name of someone who sounded important like Mr Castanza and said that would sometimes keep them in check. I can't figure out how the whole country hasn't collapsed, I know it is on the verge.