patrick.net

And for those of you in SF who think, immigration wasn't always a controversy here, please take a second to reflect on the history of China Town.

HARM,

Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don't think we get 30M new immigrants each year.

Australia's biggest advantage is, they are not bordered by any country. Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees :-)

Canada is blessed in the same way, they only need to worry about American refugees

There were a lot of Portuguese migrants working in Toronto in construction, many were deported and some advocated started rallies with slogans like "nobody is illegal". The problem I have with that is, if you say "nobody is illegal", then what do you do, open up to anyone and everyone that wants to come. It seems to be the immigrant advocate and the far-left's position is so extreme that it does not make any sense to me.

So if we allow all the illegal immigrants to become citizens, then by definition there are these jobs that no legal immigrants will do, then who's going to fill these jobs? There will be no fix if the employers are never penalized.

"I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends."

You know, the kids who did that may look back on it as the time of their lives. There is a bonding and sense of worth caused by such a struggle that would not come from persuing the flashiest car or ipod.

Question for those on the west coast. Are they offering over there like they are here on Long Island? $40k free money for a down payment and another $20k to fix it up; it's insane!!!!!

oops! here is the link.

Want to seal the border? Take a lesson from the pros.

Encourage Mexico to go "Peoples Republic" Then the new General Secretary and Politburo will effectively seal it airtight from the south side. Just like the DDR's anti-imperialist wall.

Allah,

That is insane. If they quit handing out money, property priced will come down to affordable levels.

I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the "poor."

Allah,

I believe that such programs are designed to keep house prices high, not create affordability for the “poor.”

Precisely! They are offering this to anyone who makes up to 30% more than the median income which means not just the poor...and that is why I wrote this.

Are they doing something like this on the west coast?

I worked in England for a summer and the visa form asked me to indicate my race. The choices were:

When I last arrived at SFO, the ICE official asked what my religion was.
I could not believe what I was hearing. This was a Filipino officer. I told him I did not see that question on the declaration form :)

Australia has a higher immigration rate than the US, the total quota for immigration is around 1% of the total population, each year. I don’t think we get 30M new immigrants each year.

OO,

While the above may be true for each nation as a whole, immigration as a % of California's population would be much, much higher. CA, as a border state (and chief entry piont of choice from Mexico) absorbs a far greater share of immigrants, illegal and otherwise, than any other. I seriously doubt if ND or Montana gets a whole lot of immigration. And if you factor in children of illegals here (who automatically get citizenship), the numbers climb a lot higher.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

United States Net migration rate:
3.05 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)

Australia Net migration rate:
3.78 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2007 est.)

Even if Lake Michigan has an average depth of 2 feet, you can still drown in the middle of it. Lies, damned lies and statistics...

Actually, OO's figures were wrong. 30 million new immigrants would represent a +10% net migration rate, not a 1% rate.

I think every American teenage ought to be sent to a third-world country to live for 2-5 years. Live just like the locals. No special positions, no stipends.

Excuse me, but when did anyone here say anything about life in other countries NOT being tough? Actually, that's part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).

they laugh at America for allowing them to invade and breed like roaches while we pay the way.

I don't want to be the PC police, but that was a sickeningly racist comment.

Betty,

I am apparently the person who does NOT believe that they buy social security numbers.. which shows you didn't do me the respect of bothering to read what I actually wrote. Before offering me your blessings why not doing me the courtesy of reading before responding. I simply asked you to demonstrate *how* you know they actually bought these SSNs instead of one of the other less nefarious ways in which they may have obtained them, legal or illegal. Not all "borrowed" SSNs are cases of identity theft.

I've had my SSN and credit used in identity fraud also, by the way. About 2 years ago. And it had nothing to do with Mexicans or illegal immigrants. And moreover, it was a pain in the ass but ultimately cost me $0 and actually caused my credit to end up 10 pts higher than before it happened (perhaps coincidentally).

I had an uncle end up in an identity snafu too, which was much harder for him to shake. Somehow he got mixed up with someone else of the exact same name and somewhat similar SSN who'd defaulted on a mortgage. You know, that took him over a year to clear up, and cost him a couple thousand $ in lawyer fees to force resolution (and he filed a small claims action to recover the fees which was remanded to superior court, so he couldn't pursue that either).

Off Topic

Have been following a house in Alamo which is being sold by our previous realtor. It has been listed twice since last November at $2,699,000.

Price dropped to $2,399,000 last week. It is now only $400,000 over Zillow's zestimate.

What a deal !

Actually, that’s part of the reason for not wanting completely open borders: most of us already here do not want the U.S. to become yet another Third World hellhole (just like the countires these people are trying to escape from).

It sounds like, basically, you just don't want to see any poor people. Better for them to be even poorer in their native country than come to the US and offend your sensibilities.

Glen,

If you're so in favor of completely open borders, then why don't you welcome some of these fine folks into your house --and volunteer to feed, clothe, insure and employ them too, while you're at it.

HARM

Walls and secure borders are not the same thing. Many dissimilar countries have very secure borders yet don't build walls or fences.

Borders are porous. They always will be. The challenge is to secure that against critical, defensible threats, like from armies or surging mobs.

Building giant walls has, at best, a rapidly diminishing return on investment no matter how you measure it. I'm all for some of your other proposals, like holding employers accountable.

As an employer myself, I find it doubly criminal that other employers utilize illegals, which hurts honest employers as well as taxpaying society while they profit and smugly claim they're anti-illegal immigrant.

HARM,

All else equal, if I were looking for a roommate, employee, or opportunity to do charity work, I would be just as likely to choose an immigrant as a US citizen. I fail to see why I shouldn't.

For the record (before someone else puts more words in my mouth), I am not against all forms of immigration or for closing the borders, or for means-testing all immigrants. That's ridiculous. I would even be in favor of expanding current immigration quotas/limits, and allowing more work visas, if WE WOULD JUST START ENFORCING IMMIGRATION LAWS AND PUNISHING OFFENDERS.

Glen,

Good for you. Problem is, when national immigration policy is based on weepy bleeding heart "oh, how sad, they're so poor" emotions, what you get is an uncontrollable and unassimilated flood of "diversity" along your border states, along with all the wonderful "benefits" it brings (poverty, high crime rate, lower wages, overwhelmed deteriorating infrastructure, high uninsured rates, diseases like TB that were once eradicated here, etc., etc.

@Randy H,

Fair enough. I suspect that removing eligibility for welfare subsidies from illegals and a few well publicized cases of punishing employers would quickly "get the word out" and might just make building a wall unnecessary, or at least, a lot less necessary.

HARM,

you are right, I can't even do simple arithmetics. Still, I doubt if we get 3M net inflow. But you are right in pointing out that CA is the major receptor of all these immigrants (which is why I always think that the Pacific Northwest is a much nicer place).

I am not pro illegal immigration either, I earned my status and hope others to do the same. I am particularly against importing old parents into this country, even on a legal basis. Elderly parents have no reasons to be here unless they can entirely fund their own medicare and retirement. But I just think border control will never work.

We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I've been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.

The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.

@ Malcolm

What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. ...shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!

Oooops! I meant @Allah

What can I say? Truth is stranger than fiction. …shocking.
I read your site too. Bam!

We have to be smarter at it. One of the proposals I’ve been thinking is to provide subsidy to multi-national corporations if they outsource jobs to Mexico instead of China or India, because if China or India have employment problems, it is much harder for Chinese or Indians to get on a boat and set sail to America. We have more vested interest in keeping our backyard, Mexico, stable and fully employed at a decent wage than that of China or India.

The subsidy is just a redirection of public resources we would otherwise spend if these Mexican illegals come and stay.

Ha ha --now there's some out-of-the-box thinking. And not a bad idea at that.

Well NAFTA was supposed to be that subsidy by removing trade tarrifs.

The corruption in Mexico is so bad you almost would rather deal with China. They at least speak English, but their government actively is promoting commerce and growth. The Mexican government is more like dealing with the mafia. Every single thing is a shakedown to those buggers. The whole culture is screwed up to where you would rather say forget it. When I was starting out in life, I worked for a company which made dog leashes and we had a little maquiladora. It was a joke, my boss told me all kinds of stories about every semi official with a badge coming by for their payoff. He just made up a name of someone who sounded important like Mr Castanza and said that would sometimes keep them in check. I can't figure out how the whole country hasn't collapsed, I know it is on the verge.

I will no longer go into Mexico for genuine fear unless I am with a Mexican friend. It is really dangerous, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I told you guys how I helped build a house down there some months ago. I literally don't know how there aren't real epidemics down there. The houses on this beautiful hillside had no plumbing. Each house has a little shed over a 10 foot deep open hole which is their toilet. I have no idea how the land can sustain that many people constantly crapping in it. I will never forget going down to that part.

Have there been reliable studies on the net economic benefit/cost to the United States of legal immigrants versus illegal immigrants? I recall reading before of studies that show substantial net benefits from legal immigration but substantial net costs from illegal immigration.

Immigration policy should be like a company's hiring policy. You don't hire everyone who submits an application. You look for quality. You pick applicants who will add value rather than drain resources.

In the past, the United States was terrific at stealing the best and brightest from other countries. They would come here as students and wind up staying to the benefit of U.S. industries. Over the years, I have known many highly talented foreign students who ultimately returned home because they could not obtain a work visa or greencard. Ironically, many left precisely because they were law abiding when, if they were less concerned about the law, they easily could have just remained illegally.

I will no longer go into Mexico for genuine fear unless I am with a Mexican friend. It is really dangerous, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

I will only go to Mexico on a round-trip cruise. And I may not even get off the boat at ports-of-call.

It is interesting to see that the first defense (or last refuge?) of those opposed to immigration controls is: "Do you really want to live in a police state?"

There are many ways to enforce current immigration laws without having roadside checkpoints.

As a (fully documented legal) immigrant, I have absolutely NO problem with the government asking me to produce evidence of my legal status when I desire access to taxpayer-funded government benefits. Sure, it is an inconvenience, but is perfectly reasonable if I am asking the government to pay for something.

I am not surprised that there are people who pretend that this is some great affront to their dignity, when it is clear to the meanest intelligence that it is merely a ploy to abuse benefits to which they are not entitled. What amazes me is that the this country's government actually puts up with this. Only in America!

SP

I will only go to Mexico on a round-trip cruise. And I may not even get off the boat at ports-of-call.

I was in Cancun few years ago and a lot of the restaurants in the hotel zone were really expensive, the waiters were making some serious $$$ in tips, I never saw any women waiting on us.

It’s when people that are totally unrelated all dog pile into a SFH more based on where they work and simply for economics and convenience that bugs me.

I don't really understand why this is a problem, but I guess that is why I live in a city and not in the suburbs. I think people should be allowed to live as densly as they desire. Often times that is the only way to save money. But I grew up in a big family.

I have travelled all over Mexico, by car, bus, airplane and train. I have been there dozens of times and have not had the least bit of trouble. I speak a fair bit of heavily accented gringo Spanish, which helps, and I am also careful to be culturally appropriate, but I can honestly say that I have never felt the least bit threatened there. I think some gay guy made a pass at me once when I was wandering around Guadalajara, but I just pretended like I didn't understand him.

I also once got held by immigration for about two hours in Mexico City because I stupidly forgot my passport. I had visited northern Mexico so many times, I started to think of it as the 51st state and forgot that you need a passport more than 50 miles from the border. I sat and chatted with a pleasant young man for about an hour and then my airline (!) vouched for my identity and I was given a 14 day tourist visa.

I would not drive from Arizona to Chihauhua by car though. That area is pretty lawless and has had problems with bandits since at least the time of Pancho Villa.

Don't think that you can go to Mexico and just get drunk and stupid and you will be fine.

Randy H Says:

> Could someone provide me with a historical precedent
> where the fence-builders fared better than those they
> were trying to fence-off?

It is not PC to say this but as someone who has hired Mexicans to do work with shovels I know for a fact that the wall will not work at all to slow the Mexicans down (but it sure will be a big contract for Bechtel or Halliburton)…

> I propose that fences are antithetical to human nature,
> and especially to American nature.
> “Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!” You know, the
> Soviets didn’t tell das Volk in the DDR the fence was
> to keep them in after all. It was to keep the evil
> kapitalists out.

All the tank traps in East Berlin were designed to keep someone in a tank from getting out not to stop someone in a tank from getting in…

Randy H Says:

> I think most people have a cartoon notion of
> how well borders and walls can seal off a
> population. You guys do know that even
> during the grand castle sieges of antiquity
> literally thousands of people were able to sneak
> in and out every night, right?

That reminds me that a friend’s firm was doing some work “inside” the gates of San Quentin and his laborers were buying pot “inside” the gates of the prison from “inmates” for less than they could buy it for on the streets of San Francisco…

OO,

I think you should pitch your argument at the High School or Junior College level, because the LAST thing the white elite want is educated Mexicans competing for THEIR jobs.

OK, that's a snark but IMHO there's some truth in it. We have a similar situation in Australia, where employers are attempting to use the Skilled Migrant Program to bring in TRUCK DRIVERS and the like. They don't want people with real education and skills!! THEY intend to remain on the top of the heap, after all. What they want is 'support staff' for THEIR economy.

Sorry to sound like DS, but it really burns me every time I read about a grossly overpaid executive whining about the need to bring in unskilled or semi-skilled labour so they can have 'competitive' labour costs.