patrick.net

Yes, I think we can rename taxes as “citizenship fees”. That ought to do the trick.

Sure, let's have a per-head fee. This is way more extreme and "regressive against the poor" than the flat-tax I support.

Fees are charged according to needs. Taxes are charged according to abilities.

It is easy to see why Marx would want highly progressive taxes instead of fees.

It's only a flesh wound... the April Case/Shiller numbers (PDF) are out. Miami is burnining, Cleveland is turning, and the SF Bay Area continues to slide downward.

TOB,

I'm sure the government would be happy to accept extra taxes from you slotted for over-regulation. You should contact them to work out an arrangement.

what is wrong with having all roads as toll roads? You're paying more now for roads in your taxes than you would paying for toll roads.

Also, what is wrong with paying a subscription to police and firemen? Those who choose not to have coverage can decline the offer.

I can't really see a problem with that scenario. Again, TOB, if you feel that this causes injustice on the poor who cannot afford some of these things, then you are more than welcome to pony up their fees for them.

Is your point on where to draw the line of voluntary versus required payments? If so, then military protection is a good place to start.

As for basic individual human rights, such as ownership of property, libertarians happen to regard those in the highest manner.

why not have

Good ideas!

We need to have platinum and diamond levels too! :)

Re: subscription-based military

How about this...

All future wars will be fought on computer war games. The losing side is to execute a number of its citizens. The probability of being selected for liquidation will be according to your subscription level. The more you pay, the less likely you will be picked.

The integrity of the whole system can be backed by MAD.

Is this just Star Trek (A Taste of Armageddon) with a twist? :)

I personally vouch to pay for TOB's Bronze level subscription.

"really? is a judicial system a subscription service too????"

of course not. You need to pay someone with all that human right subscription money coming in.

TOB, out of curiousity, what are your feelings on health care?

Is that a basic human right? Should the government be paying for it?

Abolish all socialized health care in this country and costs will come down in no time.

Gimme me the country club membership, which I don't already have, and we will talk again.

awwww, TOB is sad he only get's a bronze.

sniffle. sniffle.

Don't worry TOB, once health care and all your precious over-regulation and never ending socialist programs collapse this country in massive unrecoverable debt, and a libertarian society grows out of the ashes, I will let you mow my lawn in exchange for a silver subscription.

So where do you stop on the way up?

I propose that we would stop on the way down at military defense. I think it's necessary and required to uphold a society. Therefore, involuntary requirement to pay for.

Where would you stop on the way up? If not health care, then where? Should my government be feeding me? Should it be bathing me? Should it provide me a car and a beach house?

Why do you act as if anyone gives a fart about your opinions regarding economic planning?

they have no such opinion!

And they certainly don't expect those going through puberty to be interested in any such discussion.

Oh wait, you're like 29 huh?

my bad.

I for one am not suggesting we do anything. It will come to us naturally. At this point, just continuing on exactly as we are for another 12-15 years should do the trick just fine.

I’m not suggesting a massive overhaul of our entire legal and economic structure...

Because someone already did just that in the 1930's.

Many would argue that the Great Depression lasted so long mainly because of the New Deal.

It has been proven time and again that welfare creates and sustains poverty.

don't worry. We'll be starving and dying soon enough. But for now, lets get me some a that unemployment! Woohoo!

You are so ON today TOB! It's amazing. You said fuck & d-bag!

I wish I had your wit, and clever debating skills.

oh wait, I said debating. I wonder what TOB will do with that one! I can't wait!

Anyhow, we are essentially talking to a prepubescent child at this point Peter. He can't even put together a point while sophomorically attempting to personally attack us.

Time to get back to work.

@Patrick

As for setting the “right” rate, one proposal is simply to let people pay what they want and make that payment a legally binding offer to sell for 50X that amount.

Interesting proposal. As long as there is preferential treatment of different borrowers however, this is an unworkable scheme, and there would still be a lot of credit-driven speculation as developers with deeper credit access try to buy and flip properties out from under individuals who have less leverage in the credit markets.

How about something along the lines of in order for the offer to be legally binding, it has to be backed by fee-simple, unencumbered capital. That is, the payment is in pure, unleveraged capital, which generates no lien or payment or conditional claim upon the property anywhere. An amount equal to 20% of the offer, also in unencumbered capital, must also be put up, to go into escrow for 10 years. During that entire time, the owner who was outbid or any third party is free to challenge whether or not the offer was paid with unencumbered capital.

The owner who was outbid can terminate the escrow early by filing a declaration. They can accept a payoff if they want.

If it is proven that the offer was paid with any kind of credit-based transaction involved, then the deed reverts to the owner who was outbid, that owner also gets to keep the payment, and the escrow amount goes to whoever showed proof that the payment was funded by or conditioned upon some kind of credit.

I know that when I used to buy VA foreclosures, the VA had paid the property taxes. In the escrow I would then have to pay my prorated portion. I don't see why banks would be any different. I doubt they are.

Owner occupied homes get a small exemption off the valuation. If I'm not mistaken it is a flat $7,000 reduction of the value.

Question: What is to Liberitards as Surfer-X is to Baby Boomers?
Answer: The Original Bankster.

Bankster, you are having another one of your peak days. May you have many more.

Who was it that wanted to stand in line with me for a new Jetta TDI Clean DIesel?

Was it EBGuy, or Duke, or ? I'm sorry I forgot.

Whoever it was, here is big news: The Jetta TDI Clean Diesel is here! in fact, I drove one personally today at Boardwalk Volkswagen in Redwood City, CAlifornia. It's a great car, and it is going to be very energy efficient. Apart from the big and costly Mercedes E320 Bluetec Clean Diesel, this is the only California-clean diesel car available. May there be many more. The 1.2L Diesel+hybrid will be even better (70MPG), but you will have to wait a while.

Unfortunately, the sticker only lists mileage as 29/40 MPG, but I think the real numbers will be around 40/50 MPG if you drive carefully. If you believe the gauge, I was getting 50MPG easy while going 35MPH on the frontage roads of HW-101.

So far Boardwalk only have the one demo car, but they are getting 20 more in about 2 weeks. The sportwagon version is coming in september (this is the one I'm considering).

Oops, that was supposed to be "Libertaritards" two posts back....

I'm in trouble now. I'm a sort-of libertarian and a boomer.

Dennis, you can hope the two properties will cancel each other out. It is not a given that Surfer-X and TOB will agree what should do with your wife, or whatever was the favorite condemnation.. ;-)

Actually, I'm pretty sure TOB has libertarian leanings. Some of the articles/videos he posts links to have libertarian themes.

Although his hatread of Peter P and his philosophical one-liners will keep him from ever admitting it.

I don't even acknowledge myself as a libertarian, but there do seem to be some compelling arguments there. Clearly the path we're on leads to a giant pile of shit. I don't see how adding social programs on top of ones that are already bankrupting the country are going to do any good.

On the topic of oil, this article makes a compelling argument for speculation...

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0502.html

Justme,

The joke was always on surfer-x: I'm single.

Peter P Says:

> I am not exactly a Libertarian. I am a Free Market Conservative

I usually say that I am a fiscally conservative Democrat or a socially progressive Republican. I hate most Democrats and Republicans but since we don't have a lot of pot smoking intellectuals in the US I'm sure I'll die before a Libertarian wins a major election...

The Original Bankster Says:

1) libertaritards
2) boomers
3) chindians
4) gheys
5) peter p

Dick

Numero fucking uno, the fucking boomers. Oh, we call them "horseshoes" for the horseshoe of hair around their heads.

Hrm, I was hoping someone would comment on Tax Liens.

To my mind this thread has an important point. What do counties do to collect taxes from banks? A few liens are okay as a certain level of uncolected revenue is factored into budgets. But I seem to be hearing that we have:
1) a ton of people not paying their their property taxes
2) a ton of banks not paying their property taxes

I would say that they can run out and borrow mony, but the cost to do so is now much higher.

justme Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
"Unfortunately, the sticker only lists mileage as 29/40 MPG, but I think the real numbers will be around 40/50 MPG if you drive carefully. If you believe the gauge, I was getting 50MPG easy while going 35MPH on the frontage roads of HW-101."

I keep hearing different people say that a Golf makes more sense than a Prius. I can get 50MPG while going 75 with the cruise control. So can someone tell me, how a VW is better than a Pruis when it comes to fuel economy? I don't really know how they compare on other attributes.

A buddy of mine works for a Central Valley County and here is how it works there.

Let's say you have a note on your house and you don't pay your taxes. After so many years , they put a lien on the property. If more time goes by, they force the sale of the property and kick your butt out. (they don't care about the bank) When the property is sold on the courthouse steps to collect the owed taxes, the buyer had better have done a title search because the money is still owed on the note and when they take on the property they take on the debt. Fun huh?

When I went to a San Diego County tax auction they said the only liens that one should be aware of would be Federal liens, like a tax lien. My understanding is that banks are no different and can lose a property to the county just like everyone else. I don't believe a trust deed on the property would carry over to a new owner as the bank foreclosing on the prior owner is basically wiping the slate clean. They now own the property just like anyone else. I'm not quite sure if other liens like contractor liens come into play, I know those can transfer over from owner to owner but not sure if they are wiped out during a County Tax seizure.

Duke, I always found the topic of banks paying the taxes interesting. From years ago people here used to speculate that the carrying costs of having to pay the taxes would put pressure on banks to relieve themselves of REOs. Not only do they find themselves with a non performing loan, but they have the burden of 1%+ taxes in California each year on each one. If you think about it, it doesn't sound like much, but if the bank has 100 properties it is like buying a full price house each year, and paying cash for it. Not very attractive for a for profit business to have to do.