patrick.net

joshuatrio says

Nomograph says

joshuatrio says

They said it would cost me $100 for a copy. I don’t get a copy until closing.

My assumption is that $100 dollars is to get the CC&R’s as a non-homeowner (i.e. some guy off the streets).

Nice quote Who said that again? Ignore what advice? Lol.

Whole advise based on a false assumption? I love your advise Nomo. LOL.

Nomograph says

bubblesitter says

joshuatrio says

Nomograph says

joshuatrio says

They said it would cost me $100 for a copy. I don’t get a copy until closing.

My assumption is that $100 dollars is to get the CC&R’s as a non-homeowner (i.e. some guy off the streets).

Nice quote Who said that again? Ignore what advice? Lol.

Whole advise based on a false assumption? I love your advise Nomo. LOL.

Except that I was correct.
As per the email he can get the CC&Rs by paying a hundred bucks. He doesn’t have to wait until he closes; the management company couldn’t care less.
(HINT: Try listening to people who have experience with these matters. I’ve been through this many times)

Only problem? He posted email after your advise. So technically your advise was still based on a false assumption. Haha..

Nomograph says

bubblesitter says

Only problem? He posted email after your advise. So technically your advise was still based on a false assumption. Haha..

No, my advice was based on fact. Like I said, I’ve been through this process many times, I know how it works, and I didn’t need his email to confirm what I already know: you can always get the CC&R’s from the management company.
That’s why I told him to ignore you.

Even though you told him to ignore me, he'll will run from HOA(so he listened to me) and by doing so he ignored you. Come on Nomo this is a crash site. :)

Nomograph says

No, my advice was based on fact.

yeah... ok.

Personally, I would have walked away from it as soon as I learned there was a mandatory HOA, let alone to find out I had to pay a riciculous fee to find out what the rules were. HOA's are a way local govt's can tax you the same, but put the cost of things like road repair, on you too. And, HOA's attract sociopathic personality types who love the power it gives them. It pits neighbors against each other as HOA busybodies clash w/those who simply wish to live and let live. The fees rarely cover anything worth the price. And, if there are a lot of foreclosures in your area, the HOA can be in serious financial trouble and try to make up for it by raising fees to astronomical amounts. HOA's are given WAY too much power, and usually end up being run by people who should not be allowed to ever have any power because they abuse it. So if you let them pressure you into moving in without knowing what you're getting into, you will soon find out why so many homeowners abhor HOAs.

bubblesitter says

Only problem? He posted email after your advise. So technically your advise was still based on a false assumption. Haha..

joshuatrio says

Nomograph says

No, my advice was based on fact.

yeah… ok.

Wow--you guys just can't admit mistakes, can you? All you have to say is that you misunderstood the OP, and that is that. Why do you continue to pretend like Nomo was wrong?

Jvolstad, I think you should read CCR before you buy a home in HOA controlled area. You don't want to find out something you can appreciate after you bought. Just can't say, wait a min, this is not what I wanted. Can I have refund? Not gonna happen.

You may want to figure out how many REOs and shortsales are going on in the same HOA controlling subdivision. If there're lots of them, the HOA could be in financial trouble, and then, the HOA will raise fees or do all sort of ridiculous things to the people in the area. You don't want to put yourself in a situation like that, do you?

BTW, this is not for the dogs and their owner, right?

tatupu70 says

Wow–you guys just can’t admit mistakes, can you? All you have to say is that you misunderstood the OP, and that is that. Why do you continue to pretend like Nomo was wrong?

Tatupu, you make me laugh. It's evident you didn't read the entire thread - or you missed a few minor details.

We didn't misunderstand/misread the OP, Nomo did.

Dingleberry.

CSC says

Personally, I would have walked away from it as soon as I learned there was a mandatory HOA, let alone to find out I had to pay a riciculous fee to find out what the rules were. HOA’s are a way local govt’s can tax you the same, but put the cost of things like road repair, on you too. And, HOA’s attract sociopathic personality types who love the power it gives them. It pits neighbors against each other as HOA busybodies clash w/those who simply wish to live and let live. The fees rarely cover anything worth the price. And, if there are a lot of foreclosures in your area, the HOA can be in serious financial trouble and try to make up for it by raising fees to astronomical amounts. HOA’s are given WAY too much power, and usually end up being run by people who should not be allowed to ever have any power because they abuse it. So if you let them pressure you into moving in without knowing what you’re getting into, you will soon find out why so many homeowners abhor HOAs.

HOA's are Great! For the people who set them up that is. They are a cash cow for the management company of the HOA. Rarely do you get value for your HOA fees, it's all the good ole boy network, and it's damn near impossible to get rid of them once you sign up. Often it takes 100% of the homeowners vote to dissolve them. They try to sell you on the idea that without the HOA your neighborhood will quickly turn into a ghetto. Rarely does this happen, the HOA exists to make the management company rich. Avoid HOA's if at all possible.

TechGromit says

CSC says

Personally, I would have walked away from it as soon as I learned there was a mandatory HOA, let alone to find out I had to pay a riciculous fee to find out what the rules were. HOA’s are a way local govt’s can tax you the same, but put the cost of things like road repair, on you too. And, HOA’s attract sociopathic personality types who love the power it gives them. It pits neighbors against each other as HOA busybodies clash w/those who simply wish to live and let live. The fees rarely cover anything worth the price. And, if there are a lot of foreclosures in your area, the HOA can be in serious financial trouble and try to make up for it by raising fees to astronomical amounts. HOA’s are given WAY too much power, and usually end up being run by people who should not be allowed to ever have any power because they abuse it. So if you let them pressure you into moving in without knowing what you’re getting into, you will soon find out why so many homeowners abhor HOAs.

HOA’s are Great! For the people who set them up that is. They are a cash cow for the management company of the HOA. Rarely do you get value for your HOA fees, it’s all the good ole boy network, and it’s damn near impossible to get rid of them once you sign up. Often it takes 100% of the homeowners vote to dissolve them. They try to sell you on the idea that without the HOA your neighborhood will quickly turn into a ghetto. Rarely does this happen, the HOA exists to make the management company rich. Avoid HOA’s if at all possible.

I rent a house (for work) here in Millbrae, CA. No HOA's and the area is beautiful. I have never subscribed to the idea that without an HOA the area goes ghetto. I guess it depends on the area however.

TechGromit says

HOA’s are Great! For the people who set them up that is. They are a cash cow for the management company of the HOA. Rarely do you get value for your HOA fees, it’s all the good ole boy network, and it’s damn near impossible to get rid of them once you sign up. Often it takes 100% of the homeowners vote to dissolve them. They try to sell you on the idea that without the HOA your neighborhood will quickly turn into a ghetto. Rarely does this happen, the HOA exists to make the management company rich. Avoid HOA’s if at all possible.

If you're a member on the board it shouldn't be too bad. My dad ended up becoming president of his HOA for a small group of condo's because fees were getting out of control. He ended up firing/hiring several management companies - who were notorious for raising fees yearly. Finally found one that works.

joshuatrio says

tatupu70 says

Wow–you guys just can’t admit mistakes, can you? All you have to say is that you misunderstood the OP, and that is that. Why do you continue to pretend like Nomo was wrong?

Tatupu, you make me laugh. It’s evident you didn’t read the entire thread - or you missed a few minor details.
We didn’t misunderstand/misread the OP, Nomo did.
Dingleberry.

At least I'm good for a laugh. Seriously--Nomo was right. The CCRs cost $100 before purchase, but are given free at closing. What did I miss?

tatupu70 says

At least I’m good for a laugh.

Yes you are.

joshuatrio says

tatupu70 says

At least I’m good for a laugh.

Yes you are.

OK good. I thought you might have a point. Now I see that you are just trying to imitate your buddy Fantastic.

tatupu70 says

At least I’m good for a laugh. Seriously–Nomo was right. The CCRs cost $100 before purchase, but are given free at closing. What did I miss?

I see it this way now. Jvolstad - this is your fault... LOL

tatupu70 says

At least I’m good for a laugh. Seriously–Nomo was right. The CCRs cost $100 before purchase, but are given free at closing. What did I miss?

They aren't free, the CC&R's, R&R's, HOA Certification, etc., are paid for out of the escrow account.

vain says

tatupu70 says

At least I’m good for a laugh. Seriously–Nomo was right. The CCRs cost $100 before purchase, but are given free at closing. What did I miss?

I see it this way now. Jvolstad - this is your fault… LOL

I'm a conservative. It's all my fault. ;-)

tatupu70 says

OK good. I thought you might have a point. Now I see that you are just trying to imitate your buddy Fantastic.

We know how you roll:

rob918 says

They aren’t free, the CC&R’s, R&R’s, HOA Certification, etc., are paid for out of the escrow account at closing.

The plot thickens.

So, again, what were you right about?

tatupu70 says

So, again, what were you right about?

I was right that Nomo didn't read the post and was just stating useless information (and misquoted me) - meanwhile telling jvolstad to ignore all of us who actually read the OP regarding CC&R's and closing.

Here you go:

jvolstad says

They said it would cost me $100 for a copy. I don’t get a copy until closing.

Which is why we're all saying RUN, (if this is the case) because you've already plopped down a deposit, paid the inspector etc.... and you're stuck at the closing table.

Nomograph says

(1) Ignore the advice you have received thus far. They have absolutely no knowledge of the situation

The only knowledge any of us have is based on what the OP posted (DUH).

Nomograph says

(3) Once you have the CC&R’s, make an informed decision.

Explain how you can make an informed decision if you don't have the CC&R's - and you don't get them until closing (after you've already started shelling out money)

Tatupu - read. It gets old having to explain things to you. The original argument was based on only being able to obtain the doc's at closing - which jvolstad may be able to get before hand - plus $100. It appears this issue has been cleared up with this:

jvolstad says

Email from management company:

Mr. Volstad-

The realtor may be able to obtain the CCR’s from the previous owner, otherwise there is a $100.00 fee.

Thank you,

Marisela D.L. Delgado, CMCA®, AMS®, PCAM®
Association Management Services
1600 NE Loop 410, Ste 202
San Antonio, Texas 78209
Phone: 210-829-7202 ext 106 ** Fax: 210-829-5207

Website: www.ams-sa.com
Email: Marisela@ams-sa.com

——————————————————————————–

From: Jim Volstad [mailto:jvolstad@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 1:21 PM
To: Marisela De Leon
Subject: Moss Brook Estates HOA

I am thinking about buying a house in Moss Brook Estates. Is there an HOA web site? I would like to see the CCR’s before making an offer.

Jim Volstad
jvolstad@yahoo.com

Which means you're just jumping in, arguing for no reason (like usual).. Like I said. Read.

Mr.Fantastic says

I’m going to go program a good spam bot that tatupu can argue with.

Please provide a separate forum for Tatupu as well.

My old folks live in an HOA. It's a never ending drama. Somehow there is always a ahole who will do all he/she/they can in order to get the entire community pay to their contractor friends, someone to pay for their personal expenses.

josh--

So let me get this straight. You and others tell the OP to run because you didn't think he could get the CCRs before closing. Nomo correctly says that he can, in fact, get them by paying the $100. You and others post that he's wrong and insult him.

The OP appears to confirm that Nomo was correct. You and others then continue to post that Nomo was wrong and gave bad advice anyway.

Did I summarize that correctly?

EBGuy says

Here’s a novel idea. Knock on a prospective neighbor’s door. If they’re renters, perhaps you don’t want to live in that subdivision. If they’re home owners, they would probably appreciate a responsible person like you living next door and they may loan you a copy of the CR&Rs (or look at you blankly and ask “What’s a CC&R”). Who knows, you may learn some valuable information from them about the neighborhood. Perhaps they raise pitbulls (again the CC&R’s I might add), but do you really want to live there after finding this out?

+1

i'd just knock on a few doors and ask how the hoa is.
if they've had or heard of problems, what the rules are, how lenient/strict they are.
i suspect if there's major problems they would have heard and probably would love to complain about it to someone.

if everything is fine, then i'd go and read the cc&r

tatupu70 says

josh–
So let me get this straight. You and others tell the OP to run because you didn’t think he could get the CCRs before closing. Nomo correctly says that he can, in fact, get them by paying the $100. You and others post that he’s wrong and insult him.
The OP appears to confirm that Nomo was correct. You and others then continue to post that Nomo was wrong and gave bad advice anyway.
Did I summarize that correctly?

Tatupu, would you read?

Nomograph says

joshuatrio says

The only knowledge any of us have is based on what the OP posted (DUH).

Wrong.
(HINT: Some of us possess knowledge beyond this forum; say, for example, how one obtains CC&R’s on a prospective property)

You were right nomo, but for those of us who don't deal with HOA's - and someone wanted advice about a home where you could only get the CC&R's @ closing, we'd all say run. If all we had to go by was the OP (and if that were true for that subdivision) then that is what we have to go by.

My apologies for ruffling your feathers :)

If you have to pay $100 to get CCR's you should run as far as you can from that place.

From my experience with HOA's is that if they start money grabbing that early, it's only the icing on the real cake you'll get into later.

ChrisLA says

If you have to pay $100 to get CCR’s you should run as far as you can from that place.
From my experience with HOA’s is that if they start money grabbing that early, it’s only the icing on the real cake you’ll get into later.

Agreed. They only tried to feed you that BS line about having to pay up front because they are having issues with non-payment of dues, and are looking for revenue wherever they can find it.

Condo assn's used to do this to us all the time too when we'd ask for a questionnaire filled out for a refi. Some would do it, and some would say, "That'll be $300". When we'd tell the applicant their approval hinged on them having to cut the condo assn a $300 check first (just to be underwritten, not guaranteeing approval, which was conditional on the contents of the questionnaire), invariably the owner would call them up and rip them a new one, and the next day it would be, "Ok, fax it in and we'll have it back in 72 hours".

On the one hand, all of you saying "Run" were correct. But for the wrong reason.

On the other hand, Nomo correctly assessed the situation, that it was possible to obtain it prior to closing, but had previously told the OP to ignore the correct advice others had given him.

So everyone was incorrect. Or fell ass-backwards into being somewhat correct.

Except for ChrisLA. He is correct.

I can only speak to California, but the docs (HOA certification, CC&R's, R&R's, etc.) come from the management company that handles many other community associations. The HOA doesn't deal with these docs at all. The managment company sets the rates and keeps the fee for the different documents that are given out. The HOA (condo community Board of Directors) doesn't get any of that money, in fact the HOA community pays an annual fee to the management company to do everything from getting bids for major/minor projects and making sure they are done to paying the maintenance staff, paying the pool and gym maintenance people to the mundane stuff like sending out a warning letter to the unit owner because their dog is barking incessently while the owner is at work to handling the HOA board of directors elections by sending out of ballots and running the association election at the yearly meeting. I see that some people are using the term HOA which is the community Board of Directors interchangably with what would be the management companys responsibility.

About CC&R (Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions) and other HOA onformation

1. all HOAs should be required to post a searchable PDF of their CC&R online (google documents is free)

2. all HOAs should be required to post delinquencies online

3. in fact, all financial reports, documents, contracts, insurance policies and so on should be online.

I've seen people talk before about how HOA laws are basically a big giveaway to the management companies, and that the laws make it difficult to avoid having a management company. I'm not surprised. I suppose this counts as being "business friendly" in some circles.

Nomograph says

Ahh, the sweet taste of a empty, hollow, and meaningless Internet victory over complete strangers. What could be better?

At this point ya'll could whip 'em out on the counter and measure 'em...

This has been so much fun! But I lost score and am not sure if I can sleep tonight without knowing who was right, who was right first, who was correct in their rightness, who was self-righteous, and who righted the wrong.

I can't believe that I agree with someone named syphilis. But it's also possible that knocking on doors won't help if the people won't answer.

@Justme, Thing is, all of this gets recorded by the county (well, not 3., but 1 & 2). It's ridiculous in this day and age that the county recorders do not have this online (some do, to varying degrees). Got microfiche?
@rob918 Very nice post. It was pretty obvious that many folks could not understand the difference between the HOA and the management company. I was about to type something up, but you covered it much better than I ever could have.

I still believe (going off of Utah experiences), HOA's have to file their CC&R's with the recorder's office. So, at least out here, one can obtain a copy via a property profile through a title company or by toodling down to the recorder's office and requesting a copy.

rob918 says

I see that some people are using the term HOA which is the community Board of Directors interchangably with what would be the management companys responsibility.

I guess that may be in CA., but that's not my experience. The HOA can hire a management company if it chooses. And it can delegate whatever functions it sees fit to this management company, but the management company works for the HOA.

This $100 is being incurred because you're buying from a bank rather than a real person. A "real" seller would supply a copy before closing. I would pay the $100 though it is exorbitant.

If the subdivision looks good, then the rules are being enforced. Ask some neighbors for the names and numbers of the HOA board members and inquire about the financal health of the HOA from those members as well as regular residents.

tatupu70 says

I guess that may be in CA., but that’s not my experience. The HOA can hire a management company if it chooses. And it can delegate whatever functions it sees fit to this management company, but the management company works for the HOA.

Of course the HOA doesn't have to hire a management company but why would the residents want to trim dozens of trees in the common area and maintain the swimming pool? That's what the management company gets paid to do...MANAGE. The board of directors are volunteers that are elected so they don't want someone calling them at 2:00 a.m for a pipe that burst, or the neighbors dog is barking, or have to pay the company to take the dumpsters 3 times a week, and deal with mortgage companies that need paperwork like the HOA Certification for funding and all of the other stuff that needs to be done in a self contained complex. The managment company gets paid to do all of that stuff...... solicit bids, does the payroll for the on site maintenance people, keeps the landscapers on track and paid, and all of that other stuff that makes a community run. The managment company representative comes to the once a month meeting and if there are any large projects, the bids are looked at, discussed, and then voted on. Most owners don't want to get involved with that day-to-day, mundane stuff and the majority of owners here are either retirees that travel alot or young professionals like doctors and lawyers that don't have the time or interest to sweep the lobby, wash windows, or plant flowers every month. They simply want to lock their door and leave for a month or the day and come home and everything is done. Heck, in a well run unit like ours, it's hard enough to get five people in a large complex to run for the board let alone trim thousands of flowers. The only efficient way to run a multi family community is to have a managment company do it for a fee. Like I said earlier, the HOA doesn't run the managment company, they work together in a sense, but what the management company charges for documents, etc., has nothing to do with the HOA board. I am on a HOA board of a large complex we own in Old Pasadena so I am familiar with HOA's. We own SFH's and condos in the area and we use yet another managment company for those rentals, so I am also familiar with how they operate. HOA's and Management companies are not synonymous. If there is ever a question on any HOA matters it all reverts to what Davis-Sterling has to say about it. That is the rulebook so to speak for California Common Interest Developments about how an HOA operates http://www.davis-stirling.com Then law maker Gray Davis (former Gov.) and Larry Sterling passed laws regulating common developments.