patrick.net

chanakya4773 says

esp given so much irrational exuberance over gay marriage rights .

You make it sound like there is a gay marriage rights bubble. I assure you that gay marriage rights can only go up. Gay marry now or forever be locked out!

chanakya4773

Here is science illuminating incest and why society won't embrace it for the rights of marriage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

Simple explination: it prodcues unfit and unwell children. That comes with a large societal cost.

Here are examples of a multitude of strict to loose laws dealing with incest, to try and mitigate damage to overal social structures, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest

Why are you so hung up on incest? Hot for sister or cousin? (if mildly attracted to a cousin, you are likely wired normal: your genetic selfishness is just begin exhibited. If sister, you are in a minority whoes geneitc safegaurds aren't being tripped. Humans recognize when there is too much genetic similarity. Why? It's been bred into us! Think about that for a second … yeah.)

Can you find any factual, science based articles to show that a same sex family is detrimental to society? I'll help you out: you cannot. (if you want to use any 'word of God' arguments, I'll simply ask for you to prove God exists, and that's game set and match.)

If you want to argue for two sisters or two brothers to be married, sure, go for it. By the logic above there is no known cost . Incestual homosexual couples would be like what … less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population. (shrug) That can be a tack on clause to the marriage equality and rights acts ... but it never will be ... because it simply doesn't exist in society in large enough numbers.

The true reason religions, socieites, and states are so hung up on homosexuality is because they want to breed more followers. "Growth is always good. Growth is power."

Most religions believe and preach that procreation is one of the most holy things one can do with ones life. This is no accident. What religions are most anti-homosexual? Are they larger older practicies or new smaller pracitices? Are they growing? Or receeding in popularity? Why is this? (see Mormons and Islam for nice examples)

Religions go through a life cycle if you will: when they are first being founded they are all inclusive, everyone in! Then when they are trying to grow they get fanatical, often proselytizing, and very anti-homosexula. Later as they age they become more inclusive again and work to focus on societal goods and adapt to the society that is most predominant for their followers.

(An aside: Which US states gave the right to vote to women first? Why?)

Some of the first ancient cities went through bouts of outlawing and legalizing homosexuality. Why? Population management was crucial and very difficult to deal with in ancient city formations. Too many people, packed in close together brings hosts of issues: disease, unemployment, filth, squalor.

Today though, there are so many children without families of their own there is no societal impretive to promote procreation. With adoption and the internationalization, how small the Earth is today for humans ... no reason to tie marriage to a procreative need.

The PRC may get very gay here in the not too distant future. I'm not joking.

The problem with the anti-homosexual crowd is that they have a horrible knwoldege of history and science. (Those old holy books aren't the only game in town, and far less infleuntial today. They are loosing ground every year. Evolve or perish. (yes, evolve, that was a carefully chosen term))

(Bonus snark: I comfort myself knowing there is a huge section of homophobe bro-dudes who like the movie 300. Little do they know, little do they know …)

chanakya4773 says

This topic is a room silencer ..esp given so much irrational exuberance over gay marriage rights .

most people will just look at you clueless as if a brick hit their head.

Nobody can technically/legally/logically answer this question....esp legally

For US law we citizens would say simply: Legally you are denying rights to a class of citizens that is enjoyed by another class of citizens. See any discrimination or civil rights law for the past 70 years as an example of the foundation of the legality of gay marriage.

(In case you haven't noticed it's already legal in many states. So legally I think that's a check mate. You want to go for logic or technicality next? Your move.)

"Daddy, what's a rimjob?"

"Bobby, rimjobs are for daddies who love each other very much."

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

They can legalize eating your own feces in public, but that doesn't make it right. People can make all sorts of illogical arguments for why it's ok and ram it down your throat in the media. But, in the end, it'll always be disgusting and unnatural.

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

But that sounds like what our parents said about us and what their parents said about them when they were listening to the beatles and stones. There is a tendency to spot moral decay in society as we age ;)

mell says

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

But that sounds like what our parents said about us and what their parents said about them when they were listening to the beatles and stones. There is a tendency to spot moral decay in society as we age ;)

they used to stop black people from marrying white people which means that we should reconsider the legal status of incest.

some of the logical conclusions liberals come to is just stupendous.

The Original Bankster says

they used to stop black people from marrying white people which means that we should reconsider the legal status of incest.

some of the logical conclusions liberals come to is just stupendous.

There is no tendency towards incest today, in fact it is far less common due to the globalization and people leaving their home town/village. Reconsidering the value of certain laws is not moral decay. If you want to target moral decay running rampant these days you may want to look no further than the financial industry or the NAR, not how 15 year olds dress (although that is an understandable concern for parents).

The Original Bankster says

Im starting to think the real problem is just a total degeneration of morals amongst the boomers.

In russia for instance, where such behavioral excesses were bred out in the last 20 years, gay marriage is simply not even a consideration.

this gay marraige debate is really a byproduct of ... yes you guessed it, the Stupid Generation aka The Boomers.

I think this moral decline started in the late 60's early 70's. Too many drugs, too many excesses, and no reason to do anything productive. Entire generation spent their life doing drugs, drinking, and seeking pleasure. Bored people with nothing better to do and no imagination. Way too prosperous for our own good.

And at some point we decided that every single person out there needs to make it and pass on their genes. I remember back in the day there was this tv show where they would marry off retards, those that were born retarded, and acted as if that was some sort of humanitarian mission. So our gene pool got a little mixed with all kinds of things that evolution wouldn't support otherwise. And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

FortWayne says

And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

Again Russia is going to destroy us.

China is not nearly as much of a threat as Russia. Russian have very strong values and identity and America is totally susceptible to manipulation. There is really nothing any one individual can do about it because our system is built on democratic liberal values, and it really only takes a few years to first corrupt the people, then exploiting the system's finances only takes a short time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

FortWayne says

And we are here today wondering where all the weirdos come from.

We've 'outsmarted' ourselves.

The Original Bankster says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

That's one scary video.

FortWayne says

The Original Bankster says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQoGMtE0EY

That's one scary video.

he has a number of them on Youtube. A really brilliant speaker who describes the evolution of American culture perfectly. And he said all this stuff decades ago.

The Original Bankster says

"Daddy, what's a rimjob?"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/P8XJ_Z-QSBI

FortWayne says

Too many drugs, too many excesses, and no reason to do anything productive. Entire generation spent their life doing drugs, drinking, and seeking pleasure. Bored people with nothing better to do and no imagination. Way too prosperous for our own good.

The poor in this country are certainly not "way too prosperous", and I would submit that drug and alcohol use in poor neighborhoods is largely the result of trying to dull the pain of poverty.

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

Dan8267 says

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

because most of these people's actual lives are nothing like how we see them. Anytime we get a glimpse inside these people we get to see they are severely damaged and highly dependent people who make for more manageable assets for the entertainment industry.

The Original Bankster says

Dan8267 says

Now as for why rich, famous dumb-asses use drugs, that I don't get. If you're fucking Denise Richards, live in a mansion, and never have to work for a living, why do you need to roll eight-balls? Actually, I have no idea what that even means, but I know it has something to do with heavy narcotics.

because most of these people's actual lives are nothing like how we see them. Anytime we get a glimpse inside these people we get to see they are severely damaged and highly dependent people who make for more manageable assets for the entertainment industry.

That I'd agree with, but I don't think incest or gay marriage are a threat to this society (no matter if you endorse it or no not). I do think though that a nation that focuses more on these topics rather than on sound money policy and enforcing the rule of law does have a problem. I'd gladly give up my right to marry (it should be a personal contract anyways) for seeing Jon Corzine prosecuted and convicted of fraud and locked up in jail. That would be a start ;)

as bezmenov describes, it's part of the process of demoralization. Clearly things like Gay Marriage should not be a top priority right now and anyone who has half a brain can see it's being used as a distraction.

The Original Bankster says

it's being used as a distraction

...by Republicans who sell war all over the world (including the drug war at home) all charged to deficit spending by saying they're going to "defend" you and your kids from those scary "other" people, who are supposedly attacking you somehow. The sad thing is that so many people have fallen for that distraction. Hopefully when DoMA ends and becomes a distant memory, and gay couples being married is as familiar as interracial couples being married (e.g. Clarence Thomas and his wife, and the President's parents) Republicans won't be able to use it as a distraction anymore.

And before anyone accuses me of "partisanship" because I mentioned the name of a certain major party, see my comments on Obamacare, I'm no captive of either major party.

curious2 says

I'm no captive of either major party.

but you are captive to an ideology that claims that any biological impulse is permissible. You were told in your indoctrination center(that you were told was a school to be proud of) that this is a form of freedom, however it was actually an agenda to break down the structure of America. Seems liberals and gay marriage proponents can't see the forest for the trees.

Personally I'm tiring of trying to challenge every step in this progression towards complete moral debauchery and instead I simply wait for the collapse and put my eggs elsewhere. Those who can't see this for what it is will no doubt be left holding the shit bag.

Your nonsense about "moral decline" is bigotry masquerading as morality. If you want to talk about moral decline, look at CEOs looting the corporations with which they've been entrusted. Look at the medical-industrial complex, and read David Goldhill's searing Atlantic article "How American Health Care Killed My Father". There are real examples of immorality, quit hiding your own by pointing your finger lamely at gay couples as if they were somehow not on your arrogant and falsely claimed moral plateau. Bigotry is no substitute for morality, see Dan's earlier threads on this topic.

Rome rose as a republic with freedom of religion and same-sex marriage. It later became an empire, then converted to Christianity and banned same-sex marriage, and then later fell. Look at the Muslim world too, and watch Neil deGrasse Tyson's lecture on Muslim history: they prospered for three centuries during which they were open to ideas, then they closed themselves off in a world of bigotry and fell into poverty. It happens over and over. If America falls, it will be the fault of bigoted morons being distracted from the looting and massacre by the various industrial complexes that have subverted the government into their own tool.

LOL - where's Pat Robertson with his hurricane forecasts! And where was he when the 2012 Republican convention got disrupted by a hurricane, and San Francisco got a rare double rainbow during the Democratic convention! Truly, he should have seen these signs of miracle and wonder, dropped the wife, and got gay married.

chanakya4773 says

why did you leave that ?

because I answered your questions pages ago, but you denied that there were any differences despite the fact that I listed several, and eventually I concluded you're a troll who believes he's found a clever way to disguise his real motive for attacking gay marriage and supporting incest. You call it a conversation stopper, it's because you make a fool of yourself and people don't want to waste time talking to you anymore. You might become the first PatNet user I ever put on Ignore.

any time Liberals are attacked they try and label their opponents as religious fundamentalists.

I'm not religious. I think the bible is quackery. I also think most of what LGBT is promoting is perverted and sick.

The Original Bankster says

I'm not religious.

Then what is the basis for your intense feelings about gay couples? And why does "The Original Bankster's website" link to two words that I won't quote here but that seem very important to your vocabulary?

Colombia Professor defends Incest as being the same as homosexuality:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339108/David-Epstein-Homosexuals-want-INCEST-different.html

what these gay rights advocates are doing is brokering power with a significant voting bloc(LGBT) while seriously degrading our legal concept of marriage. The changes will be irreversible and damaging in the extreme.

curious2 says

intense feelings about gay couples?

disagreeing with you is 'intense feelings'?

wth is wrong with liberals? why are they so filled with hate and intolerance?

really getting tired of these assholes.

curious2 says

two words that I won't quote here

you wont quote them but you'll ban them and limit free speech in every imaginable way won't you?

if reality doesn't fit your needs then you can just reengineer it! amirite?

The Original Bankster says

disagreeing with you is 'intense feelings'?

I was referring to your extreme vocabulary, for example "your" website and your comments above. Clearly, these indicate some extreme feelings on your part. Why does the thought of gay couples together arouse you so much?

I own Google Trends now?

American Education Filmstrip for Elementary School kids in the future:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv407daollc

curious2 says

I was referring to your extreme vocabulary, for example "your" website and your comments above. Clearly, these indicate some extreme feelings on your part.

Why does any kind of debate with your insane values provoke silly childish diversionary tactics?

if you talk about gay then youre gay.

this is an interesting value because what it does is INSURE THAT ONLY GAY PEOPLE WILL HAVE A SAY IN THE DISCUSSION, ALLOWING GAYS TO SHAPE THEIR OWN RULE SYSTEM THAT THE REST OF SOCIETY MUST FOLLOW.

what if for instance, I dont believe that being gay is either natural or inherent?

there is much scientific evidence to back up this belief, however it is ruthlessly suppressed by the gay community.

gay is really a psychological side effect of one's attitudes towards family and parents, and is not at all something we are born with(aside from being born into certain familial/social environment).

THUS- to impress these values onto others is destructive.

The issue here is cut and dry. All Americans deserve to have basic civil rights, of which marriage is one of them. Nobody is trying to force anyone to believe as they do or behave as they do. This is an open and shut case and years from now this will be looked back on in the same way that other instances of civil rights were enacted over time.

chanakya4773 says

Simple explination: it prodcues unfit and unwell children. That comes with a large societal cost.

Did you not read my posts ? I suggest reading posts before jumping with answers. I had said that gay couple are equivalent to sibling couple who decide not have their own kid but use donor cell (IVF) or adopt one. So their case is no different than gay couple.

Can you explain why you don't want to legalize their marriage ?

because it simply doesn't exist in society in large enough numbers.

This is not a good explanation for not giving somebody civil rights. large enough number is not a legal explanation. just like there are not large enough number of gay people in Iran :-)

Uhh, you didn't read mine either. I'm fine with same sex incest couples wanting to have the legal right to marriage. I'd also be ok with incestual marriage provided there was no intent to reproduce.

You need to look up the definition of a "protected class" if you want to comment intelligently on the basis for discrimination laws. Again, you don't need to protect something that is so insignificant as to not merit attention or bias against it.

As far as homosexuality being unnatural, that's simply an ideology, not a fact. Check highly social and intelligent species on Earth and you will find it. It's found in nature plenty (no added ingredients, all natural).

-------------------------------------

Other comments made here in the thread:

rimjobs - they are not the exclusive domain of gay couples. You propose to regulate them? Regulate when and what a parent can teach to their child? You are pro large regulating government?

Boomers morals - the boomers are far more conservative than GenX/Y/Next. It's the boomer's children ('boomlets') not the boomers themselves that are making this change happen. (Are you in "the greatest generation" by chance? I could see your complaint if so. Every generation is more inclusive and progressive than the one before it. It's a small small world today with a lot of people in it.)

morality & law - They are linked, but there is also a very defined separation, especially when you start talking about religious morality. "Morals" typically supported by law are anything where an act may harm another citizen or violate another's rights in some way.

------------------------------

Here is what you need to answer:

1) How do two adults of the same sex, doing whatever they want to in private, hurt or harm another? How is it the States, Feds, or your concern at all?

2) Why does any state have the right to deny a same sex couple, the same benefits afforded to any other couple, by marriage? It's pretty clear to most, that it is unconstitutional. Words from the supreme court for the Prop 8 hearings go something like this: "This was struck down by the CA lower courts as unconstitutional. Should we even be reviewing this?"

3) What major damages to society come from allowing gay marriage? Please describe them?

edvard2 says

The issue here is cut and dry. All Americans deserve to have basic civil rights, of which marriage is one of them. Nobody is trying to force anyone to believe as they do or behave as they do. This is an open and shut case and years from now this will be looked back on in the same way that other instances of civil rights were enacted over time.

Spot on.

Queers are irrational psychopaths. Don't even try to debate with a queer. After all, they have problems figuring out which hole is for what.

To sum this up more, American conservatism always loses in the end. This has been the case throughout American history, as a steady route of progress is made, there are always those who drag their feet and might slow things down. But in the end they will always, and have always lost, and they will lose this debate as well. Civil rights is a right for all and gay Americans will be able to marry and live lives like the rest of us shortly.

edvard2 says

The issue here is cut and dry. All Americans deserve to have basic civil rights, of which marriage is one of them. Nobody is trying to force anyone to believe as they do or behave as they do. This is an open and shut case and years from now this will be looked back on in the same way that other instances of civil rights were enacted over time.

OK, so can I marry my cats now? I'd love to be able to claim that Head of Household tax filing status and claim them as dependents.