patrick.net

Rew says

Well said elliemae.

(Sorry, did you say free food too?)

(blush) I should have led with that.

Rew says

You confuse hate, for deep feeling and attachment. Dan cares enough to be critical.

Dan probably also prescribes to the tenant that one of things which makes America so great, is that we can so openly, and freely, challenge established belief and governance.

The guy who flat out says that he hates America isn't exactly loving the place. Those were his words, not mine, and he wasn't sarcastic either.

elliemae says

Only you would find a way to link the behaviors and actions of a mentally ill black man to all liberals simply because of his race.

We liberals don't all know each other and you can't flush us out of the bushes with your battle cries. Unless you yell "Section 8" and "I blame Obama" and "free food" really loudly... then we'll come running.

It's because liberals have put people onto government assistance, created a generation of people who live on government assistance and don't know another way to exist. Final result is just more widespread poverty and dependency. Nothing good came out of it, and it'll only get worse. And now entitled racist prick liberals are running around killing people when life gets a little tough, because all of a sudden their entitlements don't seem to pan out like they thought it should.

It's liberals who are creating this nightmare in America, and I'm not ok with that.

FortWayne says

It's because liberals have put people onto government assistance, created a generation of people who live on government assistance and don't know another way to exist.

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

socal2 says

Dan8267 says

It is the responsibility of the American South to fix the problems it created.

It already did.

The South kicked out the racist Democrats and is now much more prosperous and tolerant with Republican political leadership.

Exactly the kind of revisionist history lies that make the American South still worthy of scorn.

marcus says

Hyperbolic much ?

In your opinion, not mine. There are consequences to policies that last hundreds of years after those policies. There are also consequences to establishing vile cultures like the American South or Middle Eastern Islamic states. Culture matters, and it effects last for centuries even after the culture has died out. No one is born in an equal position to everyone else to equally wealthy families in equally sized houses with equal educational and career opportunities.

As far as I'm concerned, you cannot be forgiven from a sin while still benefiting from it. And yes, I'm speaking metaphorically.

elliemae says

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

Try Obama and other Democrat assholes if you need a photo. They've created this culture of dependency, a generation of inepts living on government assistance.

marcus says

I know you will not and can not do this

So if I do this, you'll admit your wrong, right?

marcus says

I know you will not and can not do this, but please outline a few of the most important steps that southerners need to do to address these problems, and exactly how these are any different from steps northerners or westerners need to take, and also how these steps have anything whatsoever to do with nostalgia for the confederacy or any of the complex emotions some southerners have for the war they lost and the hundreds of thousands that died in that war.

The only hard part if figuring out what you are asking given the above incoherent sentence. I'll give a reasonable effort, but if it's not good enough for you, then you need to talk more clearly.

The Confederate soldiers who lost their lives for the Confederacy and slavery wasted their lives. No whitewashing is going to change that fact. They were on the side of evil, no different from German soldiers in WWII. There is nothing that can be salvaged from that mistake except for future generations learning not to repeat it.

There are a number of things that can be done by the south to rectify the problems they created through slavery, segregation, and political, social, and economic discrimination and oppression. Many of these things can and should also be implemented throughout the country, but the degree in which they are needed is greater in the south. Others are specific to southern states. Here's a brief list, but I'm sure I can add extensively to it if I wanted to spend the time.

1. Stop all efforts at voter suppression laws masquerading as voter ID laws. Follow the intent of the Civil Rights Voting Act, not just the letter, and not just if the federal government makes them.
2. Stop the policy of police harassing minorities. Keep a written record of all police stops and if individual officers are disproportionately stopping non-criminal minorities, reprimand, retrain, or fire them.
3. End the war on drugs. It is an excuse to prevent minorities from voting as evident by the fact that minorities are disproportionately convicted and imprisoned for the same drug use as whites.
4. Stop flying the treasonous and racist Confederate navy jack, which became popular solely because the KKK started using it as their symbol.
5. Stop racist zoning practices that cause problems like Ferguson.
6. Stop embracing the culture of racism that is far more prevalent in the south.
7. Perform community policing where members of a community are the police that patrol the community rather than having white officers police black neighborhoods where they think everyone is the enemy. When the police live in the neighborhood they are policing and are of the same race and cultural background, they are less likely to think of citizens as the enemy.
8. Stop manufacturing thinly veiled racist propaganda.
9. Stop using code words like "thug" for "nigger". Also stop using dehumanizing language all together like "lazy" and "entitled". These code words are used far more in the south than elsewhere.
10. End this ridiculous opposition to socialist policies and social safety nets. Such opposition creates systemic poverty, which in turn creates violent crime. Both affects the next generation as well as the current.

So how's that for a start? Care to admit you were wrong about the whole "can't and won't" part? You should know by now, I never bluff.

The more Dan talks, the more delusional and naive he sounds.

FortWayne says

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

Less than Obama that's for sure.

Putin is a likable guy.
The world's biggest problem right now is an American president who needs to recreate all of yesterdays crisis to make his party relevant again.

Obama would love nothing more than a Nuclear stare down with China, Russia, Iraq or even NK so he can say he handled it like a Kennedy.
But the only -problem is Obama has proven time and time again he's no fucking Kennedy. Not even the bad drunk vehicle homicidal ones.

Obama is a ten dollars worth of shit in nickle toilet.

FortWayne says

elliemae says

Sources, please. And don't show me a photo of the rectum you pulled this out of.

Try Obama and other Democrat assholes if you need a photo.

So, then you don't have sources. This is why elliemae said you pulled this out of your ass, and she's right. You have some twisted fantasy about how the other team plays that does not even remotely resemble reality and when historic and present facts contradict that fantasy, you get all pissed off and flippant because you know you cannot square that circle.

Dan8267 says

So, then you don't have sources.

Who needs sources when you have rhetoric. :)

Dan8267 says

Exactly the kind of revisionist history lies that make the American South still worthy of scorn.

No revisionism. Just inconvenient facts for some people.

The South is more economically prosperous and less racist today under Republican leadership than they were 30+ years ago when Democrats had majorities in the State legislatures, Governorships and Congressional Seats in Southern States.

Reminder - more Republicans in the US House and Senate voted for the 1964 Civil Rights bill than Democrats. Al Gore Sr. voted against the Civil Rights act.

Today's Republicans ARE the Dixiecrats of the past. Once again, conservatives try to revise history.

FortWayne says

Hell, I bet Putin hates America less than Dan.

As I've stated many times, it is impossible to love or hate a country. On dumb asses think that the word loves applies to imaginary borders on a map.

That said, I'm sure you'd be much happier living under Putin's distopia than America today, and surely more than American tomorrow. You care more about the image of America than you do about actual Americans. That's not patriotism. It's blind nationalism.

FortWayne says

The more Dan talks, the more delusional and naive he sounds.

A smarter person would realize a statement like the above carries no weight if you don't justify it.

Dan8267 says

So if I do this, you'll admit your wrong, right?

I'm wrong I guess in that you attempted it. Here's the thing, most of your suggestions are good, and difficult, not just in the south, and they are good suggestions for everywhere.

Which ones do I think addressed how the south uniquely might address improving things ?

1) Does happen more in the south - but I don't see how it's connected to southern pride
4) but I disagree here and will explain below
("which became popular solely because the KKK started using it as their symbol") FALSE

The rest is really undo right wing anti poor policies everywhere and not unique to the south.

There's little here related to southern embracing their ancestry or the confederate flag, as a cause that needs to be undone or proof of why. Yes the flag is the Navy Jack, but it's also a lot like the battle flags of Virginia and Tennessee, and is sort of a blown up part of the major design (upper left corner - the part that's not all white) on the 2nd and 3rd flags of the confederacy.

According to recent polls:

As of the early 21st century, the "rebel flag" has become a highly divisive symbol in the United States.[39] In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the second Confederate Navy Jack represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result - 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride, while 75% of Southern blacks said the flag represented racism.[40]

I agree that the confederate flag has no place in government, but I do believe that for many in the south it is about southern pride and about their culture which should not be boiled down to simply racist.

Southern towns are very segregated, with a black side of town, and with much larger percentages of African Americans and also larger percentages of white right winger racists than in northern urban areas. But I don't buy your simplistic assertion that this has much to do with glorifying the slavery practices of the past or celebrating their ancestors.

You can wave your hands and say obviously that's cause and effect, but I don't see it. I'm proof that it isn't always that way. I'm a northern liberal but I have an ancestor who died in the civil war(on the confederate side), and his wife was active in the politics of the south after that. I have some historical pride in this, but it doesn't mean that I think slavery would be remotely close to acceptable now. And yes slavery was ugly as is much of what has happened since to African Americans.

I guess from marketing or political point of view I appreciate what you're saying, because you're arguing for change in the positive direction. But you aren't speaking a truth that I agree with. As I said it's too hyperbolic. Too simplistic. Too black and white. This is my opinion.

I guarantee that of the 75% of the white folks that said the confederate flag is about southern pride, I guarantee that at least a third of them are fairly liberal politically. OF the 25% that don't think that it's about southern pride, I believe a majority probably aren't from the south. They just live there now.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

And you will continue to pay those costs until you fix the problem your slaver ancestor scum created. And until you do fix those problems and stop glorifying those ancestors and their despicable culture, you deserved to be judged just like them.

"slaver ancestor scum ?" Some "slavers" had friendships and love for some of their slaves, and treated them all fairly well (considering it's slavery). Could Steve Jobs say the same about any of the employees at iphone factories in China that committed suicide because conditions were so bad ?

How is everything so fricking black and white for you ? Was Steve Jobs scum ? He was willing to do what it takes to succeed, just like those plantation owners, except those Chines employees clearly had it worse than most American slaves. The word slave just means the people had no choice. You think it's any different for many of those people working for almost nothing over there ?

I finally bought my fist iphone (replacing android) recently. Am I therefore now evil too ?

Dan8267 says

6. Stop embracing the culture of racism that is far more prevalent in the south.

Dan, are you a nutcase or something? Do you actually read this crap? Up to 3% more republicans in slave holding areas? WTF. So what about all the area's that never had slaves and are almost totally republican and hate affirmative action? Like Kansas, the Dakota's, Montana, Arizona, Idaho, Nebraska, Alaska, Utah and Nevada to name a few? Where did they get their attitude from? What nonsense. This is your supposed proof that racism is FAR MORE PREVALENT in the south?

Why post the same study twice from 2 different sources anyway? Did you just read the headline?

Dan8267 says

So, then you don't have sources.

Sources don't matter, you liberals repel reality all your life not like anything is going to change that. I'm not even going to waste time. If you care, look them up yourself, plenty of information out there.

bob2356 says

Dan, are you a nutcase or something?

Just pointing it out for you Dan, you are a mental case, even others notice.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

So, then you don't have sources.

Sources don't matter, you liberals repel reality all your life not like anything is going to change that. I'm not even going to waste time. If you care, look them up yourself, plenty of information out there.

Like creationism has nothing to do with conservatives repealing reality. Get a grip.

FortWayne says

you liberals

seriously, you know that any real discussion is dead the moment you say "you liberals", right?

it's the same the other way. as soon as you classify the other person as "that kind of person", your own tribe's orthodoxy is the only thing that is possible to say.

as far as i'm concerned, the whole point of this site is to be able to get past orthodoxies and actually understand text and subtext and have some sympathy for the other person's legitimate concerns. and there always are legitimate concerns.

ah, fuck it.

bob2356 says

Like creationism has nothing to do with conservatives repealing reality

It's old school Bob. You got to let that one go man.

seriously, you know that any real discussion is dead the moment you say "you liberals", right?

Yes Patrick I know. It makes for a real passionate conversation though. Because it doesn't matter what or how anyone says it. All those issues we discuss are always going to make people pick sides, and it'll never be pleasant. Dan will blow up regardless of how polite I sound, nothing will change that. Might as well just go at it.

well, if you enjoy that, ok.

You know Patrick, I think it bothers you, so I'll try to be a bit more conscious of that in my future posts. I'll do my best.

marcus says

most of your suggestions are good, and difficult, not just in the south, and they are good suggestions for everywhere.

By definition, social progress is good everywhere.

And things like voter suppression laws are unique to the south, not that matters, because of course the evil of one culture can exist in any other culture. The entire differences among all cultures are the degrees of good and evil values.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

So, then you don't have sources.

Sources don't matter

Exactly what someone with no sources would say.

FortWayne says

bob2356 says

Like creationism has nothing to do with conservatives repealing reality

It's old school Bob. You got to let that one go man.

Which of the multitude of conservative hypocrisies that you spout continually would you consider current?

FortWayne says

The guy who flat out says that he hates America isn't exactly loving the place. Those were his words, not mine, and he wasn't sarcastic either.

Since we're making up quotes now...

If it's wrong for a 50 year-old man to love sheep, I don't want to be right.
- FortWayne

Dan, did you read this far ?

marcus says

"slaver ancestor scum ?" Some "slavers" had friendships and love for some of their slaves, and treated them all fairly well (considering it's slavery). Could Steve Jobs say the same about any of the employees at iphone factories in China that committed suicide because conditions were so bad ?

How is everything so fricking black and white for you ? Was Steve Jobs scum ? He was willing to do what it takes to succeed, just like those plantation owners, except those Chines employees clearly had or have it worse than most American slaves did. The word slave just means the people had no choice. You think it's any different for many of those people working for almost nothing over there ?

I finally bought my fist iphone (replacing android) recently. Am I therefore now evil too ?

I don't know if it's true, but supposedly it got so bad that they had to install nets for those employees making iphones, because so many were jumping off the roof to kill themselves. I remember some people boycotted Nike for using child labor making their shoes, but that didn't last long. Maybe Nike improved those situations. I haven't heard of anyone boycotting apple because of work conditions in Chinese factories. Somehow I think that since it's happening now, and since we don't bring those Chinese people here to treat them terribly, and because it's contracted out to Chinese entities (making it inidrect), it makes it seem not nearly as bad as slavery of the past.

Was Steve Jobs slaver scum ?

There are racist liberals and racist conservatives. There are low bandwidth liberals and low bandwidth conservatives. There are bullshit liberal memes and bullshit conservative memes.

Adults are merely big children that like to be told simple stories that make them feel better.

In conservatopia, economic and social injustice is solved by ignoring it (and leaving those who prospered from it fully intact, on accounta THEY deserve their ill-gotten spoils). If someone believes in solving, and tries to remedy the injustice, they are:

*making matters worse
*are the REAL racists

And that's why conservatives are so fucking stupid that it makes people like Dan's head spin.

marcus says

but I do believe that for many in the south it is about southern pride and about their culture which should not be boiled down to simply racist.

OK--I hear this often. Could you be a bit more specific? What exactly does the confederate flag represent besides racism. What "culture"? What are Southerners taking pride in that the flag represents?

Other parts of the country have slightly different cultures, but you don't see a Midwest flag representing their culture or a Southwest flag representing desert culture.

Dan8267 says

And things like voter suppression laws are unique to the south,

Voter ID is pretty much the standard for all of Europe and the civilized world.

How is it "progressive" to have 16th century voting standards or to facilitate the poor and old to continue to live off the grid without any reasonable form of ID?

socal2 says

Voter ID is pretty much the standard for all of Europe and the civilized world.

The intent of voter ID in the south is to prevent legitimate voters from voting. Voter ID could be done trivially here without preventing a single legitimate vote. However, all supporters of voter ID laws oppose such measures.

Voter ID could be
1. Made free as in beer. There should be no cost to the ID.
2. The IDs could be issued years before they are required to vote.
3. An election could be run where the ID is asked for but not required to see what the current compliance level is. Until compliance is near 100%, the ID should not prevent voting.
4. Even when ID is required, it should not prevent voting. Instead, the votes should simply be flagged so that the voter can be verified. Unless it is proven by the state that the vote is fraudulent, it should count.
5. If a person shows up without ID, the voting site should be able to issue the ID on the spot within minutes. This is the 21st century, the apex of the Information Age. Securely issuing voting IDs should be easy to do in real time. Whatever procedures are needed to issue a voter ID should not take more than seconds using computers and automation. If computers and automation aren't used, then the procedures are not secure and the ID is worthless.

So, why is it that the voter ID proponents object to any system that meets the above five criteria? If the actual intent was to prevent voter fraud, they wouldn't. They would only object if the intent was to prevent legitimate votes. And that is why the south, which is where all these voter ID laws have been proposed, is still racist. This is just modern Jim Crow. And the laws and procedures in Europe are not designed to prevent legitimate votes, so the comparison is invalid.

The fact is that conservatives would block any voter ID system that met the above criteria because it would increase voting by minorities, especially blacks, by making the process easier and on-boarding potential voters who aren't registered. Image if everyone over the age of 18 with a driver's license had to get a voter ID to continue using their driver's license. There would be a lot more registered voters, both minorities and young people, and that would devastate Republicans and the Tea Party in every election. And people like you would oppose that measure.

Dan you will never grasp voter id laws of you prejudge everything based through a lens of 16 year old socialist comedy show.

So unless we can drag every American human being into a court house and give them free ID's, we need to keep our election laws like a 3rd world banana republic?

That makes sense!

Besides, many States already offer free IDs.
https://www.texastribune.org/2013/06/25/dps-begin-offering-free-voter-id-cards-week/

You can not function in the 21st century without ID. But dumb "Progressives" like Dan want to keep people living in the shadows and provide no incentive to participate in society.

socal2 says

So unless we can drag every American human being into a court house

Who said anything about a court house? IDs can be easily issued at polling stations.

But, of course, your objection is to any system that does not prevent legitimate voters from voting.

socal2 says

You can not function in the 21st century without ID.

Many voters have IDs that aren't accepted under voter suppression laws. This includes veterans.

Again, you objection isn't to lack of ID, it's to lack of suppression. Giving IDs to all voters without stopping anyone from voting is a trivial problem to solve.

What possible objection could you have to the system I proposed other than it doesn't suppress votes?

Dan8267 says

What possible objection could you have to the system I proposed other than it doesn't suppress votes?

First - I don't trust politically run polling stations to issue ID's.

"These 11 Illinois Counties Have More Registered Voters Than Eligible Residents"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/reboot-illinois/these-11-illinois-countie_b_8072078.html

Besides, why create yet another bureaucracy to issue separate ID's when we already have State organizations that provide this service?

Maybe if Illinois wasn't already bankrupt from paying union pensions, their DMV could afford to offer free ID's for the tiny percentage of "eager voters" who aren't capable of getting their own ID?

socal2 says

Besides, why create yet another bureaucracy to issue separate ID's when we already have State organizations that provide this service?

Inter-state voting fraud. Obviously any kind of national election needs to be managed at the federal level. Proposing a state-level ID law says you're not interested in alleged fraud in other states. So what's the motivation? Oh yeah, vote suppression.

It is clear from you posts that you are not in any way concerned about voter fraud and only concerned about rigging elections.