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The first comment I saw already got me:
"My parents came to this country legally and I don't understand why other people can't or won't do that."
You know what's disingenuous: the assumption that a people needs a constant flow of new semi slave labor to attend the menial tasks necessary for its existence. There is something indecent about that thought. That we are forever assisted and in need of support. That we need a lower class of - not deplorable but certainly deportable - people to reassure us of our place in the universe.
We have record numbers of people on welfare assistance, disabilities and the like, but we can't stoop so low as to care for our own kids, we can't cook in our own restaurants, we can't man our own hotels, or build our own constructions, and we certainly can't pick up our own damn strawberries. It would be unconscionable to do so. Even racist.
Consider: we would have to stop being an entire populace of special snowflakes. We would have to wake up early in the morning. We would have to work hard. And... oh no... our standard of living would be down. The horror!
There will definitely be a big economic impact to getting rid of slave labor via powerless illegal migrate workers. However, in the long run our economy will be far better off with strong, but more expensive labor. Yeah, we'll have to pay more for food, which is dirt cheap in America. But a good economy is built on a strong middle class, not masses of poor peasants working the fields.
Eventually all farm work will be robotized. Then what are you going to do with all the unemployed non-citizens with zero savings and skills?
Illegal immigrants are 3.5 percent of the population.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/11/19/the-importance-of-the-immigration-debate-in-1-map/?utm_term=.e4b230454e61
That's a lot, especially since everything is priced on margin. Image the impact on real estate if Trump actually made good on deporting 3.5% of the population or 10% of the population in certain bubble areas like CA, AZ, and FL.
If laws aren't enforced than we have no laws. They should address this semi slave labor issue that some profit from.
Were these immigration laws just as evil 3 months ago as they are today? Which of them should be repealed?
Who exactly is welcome to enter the United States without permission and who is not? If they are Latino should the immigration laws not apply to them? Why isn't everyone allowed in to the United States without documentation?
Or is it only when someone actually dares to administer the law that they are Hitler? Obama is not Hitler because he "wanted to reform the immigration laws" but didn't, because "even among Democrats, I do not have enough votes." Which of these Democrats are also Nazis?
I call major BS on the righteous indignation of the left on this issue. Liberalism is about feeling good about oneself - not about having true integrity and unimpeachable moral character.
A) The left could care less about Latinos and Muslims from the 7 of 53 majority nations. B) They only yell and scream in favor of feel-good policies out of their own excessive guilt for living privileged lives. C) They will continue to be pleased with the current state of undocumented immigration as long as those immigrants continue landscaping their lawns, cleaning their toilets, picking their fruit, and working the dishes at the restaurant. If the illegals rise to anywhere near the status of the poor US citizens who do nothing and get paid for it, they deal will be off. How will the Poor Democrats feel when the well-to-do politically-correct policies for housing, feeding, and providing health care to illegals makes them indistinguishable from one another? You simply want to know that some feel-good laws are in place to take care of sufficiently distant illegals, so that you can lay your fat head on your fat pillow in your fat neighborhood for one more night.
Overall, if we were to manage to deport all illegals, wages for Americans would go up (along with the prices for certain things, like strawberries), but also, tax revenues would rise, and the elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have slightly less illegal profit.
Sounds like a win-win for Americans.
If laws aren't enforced than we have no laws.
Another reason to prosecute torturers and cops who murder.
The first comment I saw already got me:
"My parents came to this country legally and I don't understand why other people can't or won't do that."
No one wants to wait in line to get into the world's greatest country.
Illegal immigrants have been shown to be a net drain on the US economy...something like $12K per year per person. I saw a study the other day. They need to go and be vetted before they are let in legally. We can't have healthcare for all if we don't vet immigrants to be "makers" and not "takers".
wonder what kind of obvious studies are they going to do next. "should criminals go to jail" ?
Overall, if we were to manage to deport all illegals, wages for Americans would go up (along with the prices for certain things, like strawberries), but also, tax revenues would rise, and the elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have slightly less illegal profit.
Sounds like a win-win for Americans.
How so? How would American wages go up?
My salary would increase? How?
You just removed a huge chunk of the consumers in America too, by removing the illegals. Tax revenues would go down : sales tax and some of those illegals are actually paying more income tax than Trump is (the ones with fake borrowed SSNs).
Very small local effect in unskilled labor markets, would see a small wage rise, as demand for labor spikes. Long term net effect to America is actually negative by what most economists think, and the initial cost of deporting is expensive as well. There would be some substantial market disruption for those industries heavily using cheap undocumented workers as well. There is no efficient pipeline or method to link the out of work 'Americans' to these occupations now no longer filled, and there is significant skepticism that any of the people looking for work would take these positions.
The "it saves us money" and "wages go up" is all voodoo math.
You just removed a huge chunk of the consumers in America too, by removing the illegals.
The idea that a larger population is always good for the economy is empirically false. Economies can only sustain so many people.
But a growing number of consumers and a growing economy go hand in hand.
Do you honestly believe that a higher population is always good no matter how large the current population is? Would having a trillion people on Earth be better for the global economy, the world ecosystem, world peace, etc.?
Is the total dollar amount of the world economy or U.S. GDP the only thing you care about? Hell, why care about the total GDP? That's a meaningless metric. The only metrics that fundamentally matter in an economy are the per capital GDP, which represents the average wealth production of all individuals, and how that wealth is distributed, i.e. the equality metric. Every other metric is just a means to determining those two things.
So would increasing the population of the United States with low-skill workers increase the per capital GDP or increase equality? No. It would have the opposite effect on both metrics. Low-skill workers, especially ones that can be deported at a hat's drop, have no bargaining power, and in a capitalist society, that means they are effectively slave labor. The vast majority of the wealth they produce goes to the owners of the businesses, not to the workers, precisely because the workers have no bargaining power. This is terrible for the economy, but great for the rich, and that is why we have so much illegal immigration.
Overall, if we were to manage to deport all illegals, wages for Americans would go up (along with the prices for certain things, like strawberries), but also, tax revenues would rise, and the elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have slightly less illegal profit.
Sounds like a win-win for Americans.
Elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have much less illegal profit, and this is a good thing. Their profit is parasitic. They are not producing wealth, but using illegal immigration to increase their power to siphon wealth from workers. This should not be rewarded. It should be punished.
A strong middle class composed mostly of highly skilled, highly productive workers who take home the lion's share of their wealth production is the key to a good economy, a high quality of life, and a society where life is highly valued. Wherever labor is cheap, life is cheap.
Elite lawbreaking employers of illegals would have much less illegal profit, and this is a good thing. Their profit is parasitic. They are not producing wealth, but using illegal immigration to increase their power to siphon wealth from workers. This should not be rewarded. It should be punished.
It's about maintaining a permanent underclass of peasants that's easily exploitable, which helps drive down wages. This group rotates frequently with fresh, less informed, more easily exploitable workers. Use 'em, and abuse 'em, then lose 'em, for the next batch of illegals/guest workers.
Great intro to Guest Farm Workers. Many are paid in a piece-work system, and make less than minimum wage; nor is there the least job security or overtime.
http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/low-wages/
My kids couldn't even get what use to be typical teenager jobs because of illegals. Jose is mowing all the lawns with his family, delivering papers with his non insured 1988 civic with blown out muffler and 8 tone paint job at 4am, and has made fast food work into a career. They cant get rid of them fast enough.
The biggest claim I have a problem with is the idea that paying more for low end labor will affect the pay levels higher up.
Didn't say it would have an effect further up. But deporting illegals would definitely increase the pay rate at the lowest levels, which is important for vast numbers of legitimate citizens.
My kids couldn't even get what use to be typical teenager jobs because of illegals. Jose is mowing all the lawns with his family, delivering papers with his non insured 1988 civic with blown out muffler and 8 tone paint job at 4am, and has made fast food work into a career. They cant get rid of them fast enough.
And the police don't stop them because they never show up to court and pay fines.
Didn't say it would have an effect further up. But deporting illegals would definitely increase the pay rate at the lowest levels, which is important for vast numbers of legitimate citizens.
This is the "Everybody makes more than $100k" or "Everybody is Middle Class" Idea that is stuck in people's heads, when the median household income is $55k.
Median Household Incomes are still lower than what they were in 1999. That's right, in almost 20 more years of neoliberalism and banks first and $20T in debt, median household incomes are lower!
It's about maintaining a permanent underclass of peasants that's easily exploitable, which helps drive down wages. This group rotates frequently with fresh, less informed, more easily exploitable workers. Use 'em, and abuse 'em, then lose 'em, for the next batch of illegals/guest workers.
Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.
Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of free markets, actively prevents them. The fools view economics as a religion that has unquestionable dogma, and anyone who dares question the dogma must be a communist. As long as those morons are allowed to dominate the discussion of economics, we'll never be able to transition to a better economic system that encourages productivity rather than parasitic behavior.
If we were to transition to a better system, our GDP would easily increase ten fold without an increase in population or technology. Furthermore, technology would advance much faster. Capitalism is an obsolete Bronze Age technology. It is highly wasteful and often self-sabotaging. It makes any decent engineer cringe.
@Patrick, another problem with the stupid comment limit is that the character count in the counter of the post submission form never agrees with what the server thinks the character count of a post is.
Many are paid in a piece-work system, and make less than minimum wage; nor is there the least job security or overtime.
Oh, there is overtime, just not paid.
Median Household Incomes are still lower than what they were in 1999. That's right, in almost 20 more years of neoliberalism and banks first and $20T in debt, median household incomes are lower!
They would be much lower if not for the great advancement in technology. If we got rid of paleocapitalism, the median household income would have gone up considerably. Even more so if we replaced capitalism with a system that pays everyone x% of their productivity including management and executives. The remaining (100 - x)% goes to the state to provide all the infrastructure and government services needed. x should as close to 100 as possible. 80% is quite realistic.
Yeah, we'll have to pay more for food, which is dirt cheap in America.
This !!
We spend less as a percentage of income vs many third world countries as well as 1st world countries of Western Europe
We spend less as a percentage of income vs many third world countries as well as 1st world countries of Western Europe
We spend damn little on food compared to our grandparents.
In 1930, Americans spent 25% of their disposable income on food. Today it's 10%.
I can't find a graph showing inflation adjusted food prices, but I strongly suspect that inflation adjusted food prices have also dropped dramatically over the past 100 years.
We should be spending more on food. It would let us eat better food and provide living incomes to farmers -- and I mean farmers, not farm owners.
71 percent don't know squat about economics and what puts fruits and vegetables into their stores. They are stupid. Pure ignorance.
So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?
As a supporter of our new patriotic president I took into consideration many of the common points that liberals make when it comes to immigration. I've accepted the fact that things will cost more without this modern day slavery. However, its such a petty increase in comparison to regaining a better standard of living. Less crime, less spent on massive entitlements, less people in prison resulting in less early releases for serious crimes such as burglary, assault, etc... You brain-dead libs can walk hand in hand with these people as we true Americans figure out how to take care of our poor and suffering Citizens that are already here.
What is insane is that we have the same political base advocating for illegal immigration for economic benefit reasons as is advocating for the continued escalation of minimum wages!! The individuals that vote these people in must be purely incapable of critical thinking!
So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?
They are growing so much food in LA and Santa Ana that the food should be free.
Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.
Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of free markets, actively prevents them. The fools view economics as a religion that has unquesti...
Dear God,
Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.
Thank You
In 1930, Americans spent 25% of their disposable income on food. Today it's 10%.
Thank You capitalism. We love you.
What happens if the agribusinesses of all sizes realize that without cheap labor and subsidies, their low margins make the whole thing not worth their time and work? Do we import all food from Mexico and Central/South America then? Does the land get reworked as a shiny white McMansion subdivision? Do we have food insecurity going forward?
So you're saying that without illegal immigrants we won't have any food?
Americans could use a food shortage.
Dear God,
Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.
Thank You
If you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.
Dear God,
Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.
Thank YouIf you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.
I gave you a reason. You don't understand economics. Your arguments are so off the mark, it's jaw dropping.
It's like a 10 year old telling a heart surgeon how he should be doing a heart transplant.
Exactly. Illegal immigration is the direct effect of capitalism. It is fundamentally a problem of capitalism, the separation of producers (labor) and owners and allowing owners to control the distribution of the wealth created by producers. This is the one and only defining characteristic of capitalism. It is literally the definition of capitalism. And it is a fundamentally flawed economic system because it creates a grossly perverse incentive for the owners do make important decisions that benefit them at the expense of the productive members of society and society at large. There is no way to patch this fundamental flaw. This is why capitalism must end.
Unfortunately every moron in our society thinks that capitalism means commerce, free markets, banking, and currency. These idiots cannot accept that capitalism has at best nothing to do with those things, and in the case of fr...
this sounds lost
Dear God,
Please give Dan an Econ 101 book, and the ability to understand it.
Thank YouIf you knew anything about economics, you could make a real counterargument instead of a baseless assertion that the other side is wrong, giving no reason. Your response is simply intellectual laziness.
I gave you a reason. You don't understand economics. Your arguments are so off the mark, it's jaw dropping.
It's like a 10 year old telling a heart surgeon how he should be doing a heart transplant.
haha there is no argument in that to counter. It sounds like an economics bullshit generator w no unifying theme to the words used. http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
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The other 29% are illegal immigrants and their anchor babies.
http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-illegal-immigrants-be-deported
#poltiics