patrick.net

John McDonald says

yes, single payer can be better at controlling cost because a single payer can dictate the size of the pie - thus "death panels" or essentially rationing care and we all fight over our share. Thus long lines which should start to happen in the USA in very short order in 2014 as they do in most of the world.

Oooh the big bad single payer. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. The US has more death panels and health care rationing than any country on earth. It's called the insurance companies.

I lived in three of those awful socialist single payer countries. Lived in as in permanent residency and/or citizenship. I used the medical system in all three. I can honestly say you are so clueless that I can't even begin to explain it to you. I will say that I'm going to have to come back to the states in the very near future for to deal with aging parents for a while and I'm already dreading the thought of dealing with the US medical system.

We thunderlips11 says

Obamacare offers cheap insurance - that comes with massive deductibles and pitiful copays.

Out of of morbid curiosity I checked and the insurance was not inexpensive.

The deductibles are good because they define the plans as High Deductible Health Plans for IRS purposes which allow the use of Health Savings Accounts funded by pre-tax dollars. Assuming you're a middle class Californian paying 28% Federal tax and 9.3% state income tax the inability to use a HSA means all your planned medical expenditures like glasses cost 59% more than if you could pay for those goods with pre-tax money.

You cannot pay insurance premiums (except for Medicare, COBRA, and long-term-care insurance) with HSA money; other cynics would probably be right in suggesting that's intentional to keep people in expensive employer-based plans which are paid for with pre-tax money.

The least expensive plan I could get for my wife and I is $700/month with a $5000 deductible ($10K family) and 40% co-insurance with a $6350 ($12.7K family) out-of-pocket maximum.

Silver is $933/month with a $2000 deductible and 30% co-insurance with $6350 out of pocket maximum. This plan makes no sense - assuming a 28% Federal tax rate and 9.3% state tax rate you'd be better off with the bronze plan and setting up an Health Savings Account which would accumulate $4452 a year (you get to use pre-tax dollars which means the $233 you'd have post-tax is $371 pre-tax) with the difference in price disregarding investment gains. IOW with this plan there's a small window of health situations in which you'd come out ahead in the first year

Gold would run $1100 a month with "no deductible" and 20% co-insurance up to $6350. This makes less sense than the silver plan because it's no longer a HDHP which is a 60% penalty on things like glasses and dental care for many people. It costs $7655 more than the bronze plan. With only one person developing health problems you'd be guaranteed to spend more because the bronze plan has a $6350 per-person out of pocket maximum.

Platinum would be $1263/month with no-deductible and 10% co-insurance up to $4000. $10,775 more than the bronze plan. D-U-M-B. The chances of requiring health spending where you'd come out ahead versus the bronze plan are miniscule - either you're going to be way under or way over.

My employer provided plan runs both of us about $1000/month before the tax break for a $250 deductible ($500 for a family), $3000 out-of-pocket maximum in-network ($6000), and 10% co-insurance although if I had to pick up the whole tab it'd be $627/month in take-home pay which is less than the Bronze plan and it goes with a Flexible Spending Account that I can use to pay for things like glasses with pre-tax dollars although I can't save that across plan-years to take care of unexpected costs up to the maximum.

I am not impressed with the ACA options.

And once again, this is what Bgamall is deleting:

"So let me see. You think that a vertical column of windows shattering is what indicates the required squibs for bringing down that building? Ha, ha, ha. You really think that, do you? Not that it is directly connected to the internal collapse in that part of the building and the subsequent air pressure forcing out air and debris as the collapse progressed. Seriously, your argument is poor even for you. You really are claiming that the demolition experts placed a long vertical line of squibs up one side of the building to bring it down. That's your claim. And that apparently these squibs were silent when they were detonated. God, you are comedy gold."

One work around to the "health" insurance racketeers is the Direct Primary Care movement.
Imagine, if you will, a doctors office that takes no insurance. None. Zero.
Minimal office personnel overhead. No waiting on payment from the govt. or the malevolent cartels.
It is similar to Concierge Medicine but without as big an annual payment, typically. Doctor visits for 45-60 bucks in most of the country.
Typical rates can be seen here:
http://neucare.net/blog/2013/8/16/new-all-inclusive-memberships

Coupled with a very high catastrophic care (what they used to call "hospital insurance" and which used to be the only kind there was) policy, this would be my ideal.
If you remove the insurance component a lot of first line health care is really not that expensive.
I am sure they will move against this nascent model if it starts to grow much, and make cash for service illegal in the medical realm.
Imagine their feeling of disempowerment not getting to decide if I need a Prostate exam or not.

HydroCabron says

Straw Man says

MershedPerturders says

Bitcoin is not controlled by banks, it's controlled by whomever has the money to purchase hashing power. It's the dumbest thing since the Dutch Tulip Mania.

It's also so untraceable that when somebody steals it you can't even prove you had the money in the first place.

Wait a minute.

I have $375 I'm cash in my wallet: If I get mugged, I can just tell the cops, and I'll get my money back?

facepalm.jpg

bgamall4 says

And notice, Bigsby, that the explosions were detonations. Trying to make explosions not detonations like you do shows what a damn fool you are. Notice the pulverization and white smoke that accompanies all implosions. And, btw, the 3 buildings on 9/11 had those same traits. You are an idiot cockroach.

Notice 'the explosions were detonations'?
bgamall4 says

Squibs were observed, Bigsby. Smoke being blown out symmetrically was observed. You can make fun of it if you want, cockroach, but here is another example of the exact same thing roach. Some squibs are horizontal, some are verticle. Some buildings like the Towers had explosions prior to collapse. The Towers was sophisticated, but many of the same effects are seen in this compilation:

What is it with you? Do you want to disprove your own claims? You've just posted up a bunch of demolition videos that directly refute your claims. Which of those buildings were brought down by squibs planted in a single long vertical line (and nothing else) half way up the building? None of those videos show anything remotely similar, and they all make, how can I put it, a loud bloody noise, something sorely lacking in any of your videos.

debyne says

Government single payer may force premiums down, but it'll be at the expense of the quality of care one receives as doctors get paid less and fraud, waste and abuse increase. Don't lose the competition or you'll lose quality in the long run....doctors need incentive like the rest of us

That doesn't even make any sense. All the fraud in the system is because of fee for service encourages it. Eliminate fee for service with a capitation/salary arrangement (the way the rest of the world does it) and there's no avenue for fraud.

Don't you understand the more a doctor treats you the more he gets paid? Look at the differences in treatment between practices that can refer to testing/diagnostic centers they own and the practices that can't or don't. Shocking. Sometimes the best medicine is not doing anything. You obviously don't grasp the fine distinction between quantity and quality.

bob2356 says

Don't you understand the more a doctor treats you the more he gets paid? Look at the differences in treatment between practices that can refer to testing/diagnostic centers they own and the practices that can't or don't. Shocking. Sometimes the best medicine is not doing anything. You obviously don't grasp the fine distinction between quantity and quality.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Having the gov't pay for our care vs the private sector has nothing to do with fee for service. The private sector is already starting to make strides away from fee for service, so your argument makes no sense. The private sector will always ultimately find better, faster, cheaper solutions than the gov't will ever dream of doing.

it's untraceable. he got sloppy and posted his real name.

i'm surprised that you being the conspiracy theory expert hadn't know about this.

the History Channel made a documentary claiming LBJ was behind the whole thing but the higher power made them stop airing it. LBJ was bought by the Military Industrial Complex and organized the whole thing.

http://www.rense.com/general76/hunt.htm

bgamall4 says

You misunderstand the respect with which JFK was given by the American people.

The American people dont respect cronies who have ties to organized crime like the Mafia's, Sam Giancana, which the Kennedy's have been neck deep in for decades past. Perhaps we are better off with Kennedy's clan being out of power.

Since you a big conspiracy buff.. how do explain JFKs ties to the Mafia ?
Why did Kennedy need the help of the Mafia and equally corrupt unions to get elected?

There is your answer...

Mark D says

the History Channel made a documentary claiming LBJ was behind the whole thing but the higher power made them stop airing it. LBJ was bought by the Military Industrial Complex and organized the whole thing.

Dont need the History Channel to remind many that it was Kennedy and Democrats on the whole who were claiming the Missile Gap and where seeking higher military spending...

"During the campaign, Kennedy charged that under Eisenhower and the Republicans the nation had fallen behind the Soviet Union in the Cold War, both militarily and economically, and that as president he would "get America moving again."

Here's one issue with the disjointed conspiracy team.

If Gerry Ford and Nelson Rockefeller were so close and tight knit, on the whole conspiracy cover up, then why did Ford drop Rockefeller from his re-election ballot? In other words, why was Rocky dropped by virtue of him, being too liberal in the eyes of other conservatives? Would fellow conspirators drop each other, at the drop of hat?

I think that thing here is that yes, there was a conspiracy but no, it didn't involve everyone under the sun.

What is it with you and these false flags?
Every post you are sticking a false flag up somebody's ass.
Don't you have any true flag stories to tell?
bgamall4 says

Ceffer says

Why should I be ashamed because the American public has such poor judgment?

You pervert. Didn't you know that it was Kennedy who stopped the false flag Operation Northwoods from happening? Didn't you know it was Kennedy who sought to issue money instead of relying on the Federal Reserve? The exact things that so called libertarians call for today, he gave his life for you putz.

Call it Crazy says

A blunder ??? REALLY?? A slip of the tongue??? Freudian slip??

How many times did he repeat it over and over for multiple YEARS in many speeches???

And you'll sit here and call it a "blunder"???

WOW!!!

Calm the fuck down there, Skippy. I don't understand the point of your histrionics here. It's not necessary for you to hold down the question mark key when you are typing. I called it a blunder. Apparently you seem to equate "blunder" with "one time minor inadvertent mistake", but that is not what I said. Neither did I say "Freudian slip" or "slip of the tongue". So don't put words in my mouth, asshole.

Same question to you: Nobody is claiming that Obama was correct to say that. So what is your point?

Call it Quits says

50 to 75 percent of the 14 million consumers who buy their insurance individually can expect to receive a “cancellation” letter or the equivalent over the next year because their existing policies don’t meet the standards mandated by the new health care law.

Waaahhhh! Obamacare won't allow me to keep my high-deductible plan. Obamacare deductibles are too low.

thunderlips11 says

Obamacare offers cheap insurance - that comes with massive deductibles and pitiful copays.

Waaaahhhh! Obamacare deductibles are too high.

Wow, you guys can't even agree on what you hate about Obamacare. You're making the exact OPPOSITE points. You couldn't MAKE this stuff up. LOL.

BoomAndBustCycle says

That's basically CANCER coverage... or bad car accident coverage... It's expensive yes.. but it's better than nothing.

As I illustrated it's better than more comprehensive coverage except in very constrained circumstances. If the plan pays your health care providers they can add 25% and keep the rest as profits (obviously this would not be a problem with not-for-profit government insurance).

If you pay your providers you don't pay the markup and get the better of the insurer's negotiated discount and what you can get for cash.

With the lesser coverage you also avoid the 59% markup (28/9.3 federal and state rates) on your share of costs (obviously this would not be a problem without the current government tax policies which favor expensive employer plans and increase profits for the companies providing them).

ThreeBays says

Dang $1500/mo, that's expensive. Not some $400/mo plan people are complaining about being double what they paid before.

That's probably 2 adults and one or more kids, and just $918 a month in take-home pay if you paid it all yourself (28/9.3 federal and state rates, 1.45% Medicare, no FICA or SDI)

$306/3 = $313 a person which is less than the $400/month people are complaining about on individual plans.

If you're not hitting the FICA and SDI wage caps it'd be $810/month and just $270 a person.

thomaswong.1986 says

"During the campaign, Kennedy charged that under Eisenhower and the Republicans the nation had fallen behind the Soviet Union in the Cold War, both militarily and economically, and that as president he would "get America moving again."

It's MORNING IN AMERICA again!

Wait that was another President.

I'm not sure why our usual bunker crowd would care much about this revelation. Kennedy was a Democrat after all, and pinning it on another Democrat is of course satisfying but ultimately as long as he's dead..... who cares?

ThreeBays says

drew_eckhardt says

$940/3 = $313 a person which is less than the $400/month people are complaining about on individual plans.

The $400 complaint was for a family I believe.

Pre-ACA young people were getting $80 policies and family plans were about 3X one adult so that remains a valid complaint.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/gsMKMMlleOE

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

An oligarch buys the very last business in the world and disbands the last union and sends the last job to the Chinese gulag and then everyone in America volunteers to suck him off for the chance to wash his car for a tip or a piece of cheese.

Then everyone eats each others' faces.

Basic Adam Smith.

That's all correct.

I got to say you're a smart cookie.

one and two are the same thing.

the third answer is people like Homeboy hitting submit about ten times. There's no damn 24% of any group left in this country that has anything positive to say about Obamacrap but Libots.

Too early to tell for the program.
The act of signing up for it definitely does not emote confidence.
The lies told to get it through the legislature definitely does not emote confidence.
But the program itself?? Too early to tell...

No, because I never had any faith to begin with. It was a disaster, congress didnt even read it before they voted on it. It will be a disaster. It was designed to be a disaster. It will likely destroy what is left that was working in healthcare and its failure will bring about Barry's ultimate goal, total state/federal run medicine.

ThreeBays says

Obamacare haters should know full well Obamacare is Romneycare. It's Republican Care. Do some research... ACA is the plan republicans have wanted for decades, and Romney implemented in Massachusetts with individual mandate and all. The only reason Repubs hate it now is because it was signed by Obama.

I agree that people are completely uneducated about Obamacare. As an independent, I'm actually in favor of this type of health insurance implementation because it fosters more competition across the private insurance companies, and we have to get everyone with at least catastrophic coverage in order to ultimately spread costs more evenly and bring costs down for everyone.

No, because as someone else said- it JUST started. Secondly, the latest little trick the right-wingers are playing is spreading the half-truth that MILLION are losing their insurance when in fact, all that's happening is that about 5% of the population on private plans are on plans that lack the basic requirement of the ACA. So as such, they are then able to sign back up and in turn get plans that are actually better, and in most cases at the same cost or cheaper.

Either way, I assume the GOP and their eager, faithful followers will keep right on spending every waking minute wasting it on trying to defeat a law that is already in action.... and they'll do so right up to the 2016 elections where they will lose as a result.

What the libtards are missing is that people are naturally going to be hesitant to enter all their personal info into a website that's famous for being craptacular.

Homeboy says

Waaaahhhh! Obamacare deductibles are too high.

Wow, you guys can't even agree on what you hate about Obamacare. You're making the exact OPPOSITE points. You couldn't MAKE this stuff up. LOL.

I'm giving my honest opinions.

I'm in favor of single - payer, not more Public-Private Cooperation Taxpayer Funded Bullshit that fixes nothing except bonuses for Insurance Company Executives.

$5000-$10000 deductibles are ludicrous.

As I explained above, the reluctance of people to get testing is not helped by massive deductibles, which represent anywhere from 20-33% of their entire yearly income. Because the median household makes $38k, a $5000-$10000 deductible does not do much about the "Wait until you can't stand it any more, then go to the ER problem". To say nothing about 40-50% drug copays.

That is Walmart Grade, "Look, we provide Insurance, really we do" type insurance.

Who gives a crap about Romney Care? We need the NHS.

What wingers are missing is that people aren't being hesitant at all, but that indeed the current system has bugs, and a lot of that is from the overwhelming amount of traffic from people trying to sign up.

If the Constitution forbids slavery or any other essential component of liberty, then the Constitution is unconstitutional!

edvard2 says

What wingers are missing is that people aren't being hesitant at all, but that indeed the current system has bugs, and a lot of that is from the overwhelming amount of traffic from people trying to sign up.

It's chief primary operating function right now, is to defer people to Medicare. The actual potential insurance buyers are avoiding it like a Wafflehouse on MLK blvd.

edvard2 says

nd a lot of that is from the overwhelming amount of traffic from people trying to sign up.

That is not true- the site just doesn't work. and they paid $650 million for it.
Whether you like Obama care or not this type of "glitch" is not acceptable. Obama said it was like Apple.
Imagine if people couldn't use their iphones or ipads for a month and the CEOof apple kept saying "Apple is more than an iphone, its a good product".

edvard2 says

What wingers are missing is that people aren't being hesitant at all,

If you are mandated, better not hesitate!

thunderlips11 says

not more Public-Private Cooperation Taxpayer Funded Bullshit that fixes nothing except bonuses for Insurance Company Executives.

We needed dramatic reform of a broken system.
We got Obama care.
By some estimates, at least a third — and perhaps as much as half — of all the money spent on health care in the United States is wasted, and all we are doing is arguing about who should pay for this waste.
And fund the average CEO salary of 11 million bucks.

Taxes are due on April 15 every year. If only 1% of people who owe, have paid their taxes by Feb. 2, does that mean that the IRS is a failure and that taxes will never be paid?

smaulgld says

That is not true- the site just doesn't work. and they paid $650 million for it.

Whether you like Obama care or not this type of "glitch" is not acceptable.

A story was on the morning news today about how that in the case of Massachusetts's own healthcare plan, which Obamacare was heavily modeled after, it too had a lot of technical glitches when it started. Besides- that has nothing to do with trust and people's hesitancy to sign up.

Hard to lose faith in something that I never did have faith in. In many ways it's even a bigger disaster than expected and anticipated. A bad program shoved down our throats by an idiot president.

"...not in actuality vote for anything that would legalize human slavery."

I can't believe he would insult The Confederate States of America.