patrick.net

Yup, and a parallell was also drawn between this rollout compared to the Romneycare bill for MA, which also had a very small number of people sign up in the first month. Except this time, its for all 50 states.

Try again...

There are still defenders using the BUT BUT Bush, BUT BUT Romney BUT BUT you are a Republican.

Eventually this fiasco will be apparent to all as the Obama care emperor has NO clothes.

Foolish to even deny how awful this has been so far:
-horrific web site blamed on "demand" -forced mandate
-security holes in the site
-$650 million and counting to build
-12 million people WON'T be able to keep their healthcare even though in the State of Union Obama said they could
-prices for insurance have gone up

These are facts whether you are a card carrying democrat or a Cheny loving neo con Republican or an independent.

Apologize for them at risk of your credibility

AverageBear says

Obamacare is wealth re-distribution, pure and simple.

It will be if they can get the website to work. In the meantime the tab to build/fix it takes in more money

smaulgld says

Eventually this fiasco will be apparent to all as the Obama care emperor has NO clothes.

Or for a check on reality, the site will get fixed, the teething problems will be solved, lots of people will wait until the end to sign up, and once this is all running smoothly, right wingers are gunna' have to find some other evergreen thing to constantly bitch about.

AverageBear says

He lied to you 3 years ago, KNOWING you'd lose your health care.

But then you seem to conveniently forget that those losing their current plan will then be able to sign up for a BETTER plan at the same cost. This bullshit about "On no! Mericans' are losin' thar' Healthcare!" is of course the latest lame media push by the right wing media. Yup- nuttin' like only telling half of the story to rile up the base...

"Obamacare is wealth re-distribution, pure and simple"

you say that like it's a bad thing, LOL.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GINIALLRH

And I partially agree, it is wealth redistribution, taking from the rich -- that new 3.8% tax on investment income, OUCH! -- to pay for poor people's health insurance, people who can't afford the mandate necessary to avoid adverse selection problem of guaranteed-issue insurance.

So it's not JUST wealth distribution, but that is the major thing that (rich) conservatives are really objecting to, having to pay for someone else's health care.

If I make $2000/mo, Obama pays $2500, leaving me a $133/mo premium.

$3000/mo, $700 subsidy for a $300/mo premium

$4000/mo $0 subsidy and roughly the status quo ante ($340/mo premium)

I've been on Blue Shield PPO since 2008 so I'm intimately familiar with the private insurance market.

I had applied in 2004 but Blue Cross rejected me since I had gone to the doctor for knee pain in the past year.

So fuck you and your idiotic ideology. The past way of doing things was broken and "ObamaCare", for all its imperfections, is a step towards progress.

No thanks to you a-holes.

edvard2 says

smaulgld says

Eventually this fiasco will be apparent to all as the Obama care emperor has NO clothes.

Or for a check on reality, the site will get fixed, the teething problems will be solved, lots of people will wait until the end to sign up, and once this is all running smoothly, right wingers are gunna' have to find some other evergreen thing to constantly bitch about.

That would be fine but right now that is just wishful thinking.
Complaining about the roll out should be done by Democrats first and foremost as THEY voted for it-they should want it to work properly.

Even if they wait til the end to sign up won't make O Care a success if they are forced to sign up and end up paying more than they would have or if 12 million people lose their plans and the total cost of implementation of the web site approaches or exceeds $1billion and there are numerous instances of identity theft associated with healthcare.gov

Its hard for the die hards to see what a failure this has been. Like defending a last place team and insisting they are champs

edvard2 says

But then you seem to conveniently forget that those losing their current plan
will then be able to sign up for a BETTER plan at the same cost.

That is what's truly scary - how bad was this so called "coverage" for all the peeps that will be losing their plan? Because when I check my current plan at work vs all these plans at the exchange, my plan is infinitely better. The bronze plan truly sucks when I compare it via anchoring effect vs what I currently receive from the employer. Seems to be like those who will be losing their coverage because it does not meet the "minimum requirements" were truly eating shit.

Bellingham Bill says

So fuck you and your idiotic ideology. The past way of doing things was broken and "ObamaCare", for all its imperfections, is a step towards progress.

Actually the only good thing you can say about Ocare is it is well intentioned. There were easier and more efficient ways of providing healthcare insurance for the uninsured due to lack of funds or preexisiting conditions..

Instead they decided to build a web site, collect your information and then match you up (by mandate) with a PRIVATE company. I don't see any reason for it to have been done this way.

Are there government websites that help you buy a car that direct you to car dealerships and take all your financial and driving records first? Makes zero sense. It adds a layer of bureaucracy that is expensive, unnecessary and smacks of corporate cronyism.

It is no defense to say "but they are trying"
This so far has been no help at all.
Easy to defend single payer, subsidies for the uninsured but THIS?

edvard2 says

But then you seem to conveniently forget that those losing their current plan will then be able to sign up for a BETTER plan at the same cost.

First that isn't true and second-what ever happened to choice-if people want a low cost high deductible plan why force them to take a more expensive one. Like making someone buy a more expensive car because the government thinks you should have a better car and the dealer needs the extra money

edvard2 says

Yup, and a parallell was also drawn between this rollout compared to the Romneycare bill for MA, which also had a very small number of people sign up in the first month. Except this time, its for all 50 states.

Try again...

........Could you mention, for example, that the state you’re using as America’s model has the highest health care premiums in the country? I bet the folks down in Pennsylvania, where unsubsidized coverage for a family of four costs less than $10,000 a year, will be thrilled to learn that, according to Josh Archambault of the Pioneer Institute, the average family premium in Massachusetts is $17,000.I bet the Amish can’t wait for Obamacare to do the same for them!

So, I guess you call it a success when following RomneyCare, we (those in Massachusetts, including ME) pay the highest rates in the nation. Success indeed! Try again...

smaulgld says

There are still defenders using the BUT BUT Bush, BUT BUT Romney BUT BUT you are a Republican.

Eventually this fiasco will be apparent to all as the Obama care emperor has NO clothes.

Foolish to even deny how awful this has been so far:

-horrific web site blamed on "demand" -forced mandate

-security holes in the site

-$650 million and counting to build

-12 million people WON'T be able to keep their healthcare even though in the State of Union Obama said they could

-prices for insurance have gone up

These are facts whether you are a card carrying democrat or a Cheny loving neo con Republican or an independent.

Apologize for them at risk of your credibility

Uh, that's quite an obsession you've got there. I'm sure that "both sides do it" but you're aching for a "See: Obama finally did something worse than Bush!" moment, while seeing blind partisans everywhere but in your own living room.

I hope you don't get that pleasure you seek; not because I want to thwart you, but because we can't afford another 3 thousand billion dollars down the drain.

Something is either good, okay, bad, or terrible. The federal site is terrible. It's terrible whether or not Bush ever did anything good or bad.

You have 3 years and 2 months of Obama left. Maybe your dream will come true, and there will be a moment when he does something demonstrably more awful than Iraq and Afghanistan.

edvard2 says

lots of people will wait until the end to sign up,

Lots of 'people'? People who actually pay taxes? See, this is the weath-distribution thing you don't want to talk about. Oh sure. They'll be tons of people signing up, but they'll be paying zilch, or very little for their health care. Those that actually pay taxes? I think they'll get a different 'experience'. Look at the picture I attached at the top of the thread for an idea of what I'm talking about....

AverageBear says

See, this is the weath-distribution thing you don't want to talk about.

I love talking about wealth distribution!

I am in totally in favor of wealth distribution. The government should use force to redistribute wealth.

I heart wealth distribution!

HydroCabron says

Something is either good, okay, bad, or terrible. The federal site is terrible. It's terrible whether or not Bush ever did anything good or bad.

What's terrible is when your president lied to you 3 years ago about being able to keep your doctor and your insurance, KNOWING that he's lying to you....

And when his incompetence is revealed (pick a scandal, any scandal), he pleads ignorance. Incompetence vs. ingorance. I don't know which is worse, but Obama's got plenty of both these days.

HydroCabron says

See: Obama finally did something worse than Bush!" moment, while seeing blind partisans everywhere but in your own living room.

Like I mentioned that is the best argument one can make in defense of this fiasco.
And the defense is weakened and utterly destroyed because I am not a fan of GW Bush at all so I am not looking for the moment you wish to think I am!

Stick with what you said "Something is either good, okay, bad, or terrible. The federal site is terrible. It's terrible whether or not Bush ever did anything good or bad." I agree that is the credible argument

AverageBear says

What's terrible is when your president lied to you 3 years ago about being
able to keep your doctor and your insurance, KNOWING that he's lying to
you....

No president ever lies to commoners! The issue is that commoners misperceive and misremember everything. And if they don't understand this, Room 101 is right around the corner where they will be convinced of their cognitive errors.

smaulgld says

That would be fine but right now that is just wishful thinking.

Complaining about the roll out should be done by Democrats first and foremost as THEY voted for it-they should want it to work properly.

The people in charge of the rollout have taken the blame and so has the President. What else do you want them to do?smaulgld says

Its hard for the die hards to see what a failure this has been. Like defending a last place team and insisting they are champs

Has been? The damned thing has been out for exactly one month! How can you call something a failure when its not even been out long enough to work out all the kinks? The only people saying its a failure are the folks on the right who were strung along by the righty-winger media that no matter what, Obamacare is bad and thus they desperately want this to fail. So it would probably be best to re-set your expectations more closely to reality because otherwise you're in for some major disappointment.AverageBear says

Could you mention, for example, that the state you’re using as America’s model has the highest health care premiums in the country?

Nobody here said that Obamacare is based exactly on Romneycare down to the smallest details. And therefore your assessment isn't comparing apples to apples. And if you want to go on about costs, well my Dad for example pays close to $1,000 a month for he and he alone. His insurance rate is going to drop dramatically as a result of the ACA. But nevertheless, guess what? Insurance COSTS MONEY!!! ding ding ding ding! Nobody ever said that Obamacare was going to be totally free. But by and large it is cheaper overall.

But what most people who rail against it fail to grasp is that the single most important part of this law is that it made insurance to act like insurance. How easy it is to forget that it was common for people to get turned down, or have their plans terminated at a moment's notice. If you want to talk costs, the amount of people going bankrupt over healthcare bills or from the loss of insurance after which they got sick was costing the US BILLIONS of dollars.

What the ACA did was to reset standards and also bring stability to the healthcare system by eliminating the uncertainty of how much insurance would actually cover or if someone could be turned down or otherwise not served in a manner insurance is supposed to work.

Either way, like I said before- some of you all giddy and hoping this will fail are in for some major disappointment. EVERY single major plan that gets implemented in the US government has been rife with problems, kinks, and false starts. This plan is no different and it too will solve these problems and more or less become a fixture of the US government.

AverageBear says

And when his incompetence is revealed (pick a scandal, any scandal), he pleads ignorance. Incompetence vs. ingorance. I don't know which is worse, but Obama's got plenty of both these days.

I hope you actually believe that because few if anyone else does. Obama is about 2,000% better, more intelligent, articulate, and accomplished than his predecessor by far. People seem to forget how people would cringe when Bush got up on the podium and stuttered and stumbled around on the mike- even with his teleprompters.

HydroCabron says

I love talking about wealth distribution!

I am in totally in favor of wealth distribution. The government should use force to redistribute wealth.

I heart wealth distribution!

I know you do, but the majority of Americans (those that pay taxes, follow the law, and are in fact, legal residents) DON'T like wealth redistribution. In fact, I can honestly say that over 99.80% of tax payers in Massachusetts DON'T like wealth redistribution. How do know? Because whens state taxes are due, you have the option of paying the former/higher tax rate. All's you gotta do, is check a box. A simple way for doing your share of 'wealth redistribution'. But guess what? Less than 1% of Mass Tax payers that actually owe taxes don't check that little box.... .And is it any surprise that Obama would never call his shifty little heathcare act 'wealth redistribution', because then it wouldn't be the fine law that it is today (insert sarcasm)....

edvard2 says

Nobody ever said that Obamacare was going to be totally free.

Actually a couple aged 60 making $40,000 a year can get the "Bronze" level coverage for $2/mo !

Kaiser subsidy calculator link shows $16,000 premium subsidy (!)

So ObamaCare is free to poor people. The middle and upper classes get the shaft with it, kinda, in that they don't get the goodies the poor do.

Those "lucky duckies"!

edvard2 says

I hope you actually believe that because few if anyone else does. Obama is about 2,000% better, more intelligent, articulate, and accomplished than his predecessor by far. People seem to forget how people would cringe when Bush got up on the podium and stuttered and stumbled around on the mike- even with his teleprompters.

Fiscally, I'm not a fan of Bush, so make fun of him all you want. But I'd take a president who's less comfortable around a camera, over a president who lied to me 3 years ago, KNOWING that what he's saying is all lies. "Get to keep your doctor", "Get to keep your health insurance policy"... HA!

smaulgld says

Instead they decided to build a web site, collect your information and then match you up (by mandate) with a PRIVATE company. I don't see any reason for it to have been done this way.

Only because idiot red states opted out of their state-level implementation.

coveredca.com ftw.

Obama couldn't win here with any reforms.

Medicare-for-all was "gov't death panels!" according to you right-wing morons.

PPACA's mandate is "forced commerce with evil private corporations!" according to you clowns.

UK-style NHS (healthcare run like public safety services) is of course communism to you guys.

Your guys idea of healthcare is "got mine fuck you".

That applies for absolutely everything in the conservative ideological playbook.

sbh says

AverageBear says

Obamacare is wealth re-distribution, pure and simple.

Burns, doesn't it?

No, I actually enjoy enlightening those that are ignorant of this fact.

AverageBear says

over a president who lied to me 3 years ago, KNOWING that what he's saying is all lies. "Get to keep your doctor", "Get to keep your health insurance policy"... HA!

I'm not sure how to make this any more clear to you: The only thing that has happened here is a minor technicality: Yes- some people are going to lose their current plan. But this is because the plans they have don't meet the bare minimum requirements for coverage. So in other words- the plans they're on SUCK. So now they can start a new plan and KEEP the same damned doctor. You can keep on trying to turn this into something that is isn't, but the truth has a way of settling things in the end. I realize that the RR media has been bellowing this horse shit all week because you know- they've gotta' find some half-lie to please their ever-anti-liberal listeners.

Oh- and you seem to make this big deal over what you perceive as a Lie ( which I've already disapproved) But if lieing is such a big deal to you then WTF? Bush Lied MANY times. I would also be willing to bet that if it were Bush that had come up the ACA, every single right winger would be all over it, championing it as a marvelous piece of legislation, and so on- not because its a healthcare plan but because the idea was THEIR'S and not the Liberals. That is really what this all boils down to. Obama could have come up with a plan that caused rain clouds to dump gold coins on every city and conservatives would probably call it communism, or whatever other bullshit they regurgitate.

edvard2 says

But then you seem to conveniently forget that those losing their current plan will then be able to sign up for a BETTER plan at the same cost

HHAHAAAHAAA!!!! Please don't tell me you are serious.... Oh, that's a funny one. Thanks, I needed that....

AverageBear says

HHAHAAAHAAA!!!! Please don't tell me you are serious.... Oh, that's a funny one. Thanks, I needed that....

I didn't create the law. That is the law. If you lack understanding of how that works then its not my responsibility to inform you because I'm guessing you wouldn't care anyway.

Bellingham Bill says

wealth redistribution, taking from the rich

When you say 'rich', if 'rich' = 'paying taxes', then you'd be correct.

AverageBear says

Bellingham Bill says

wealth redistribution, taking from the rich

When you say 'rich', if 'rich' = 'paying taxes', then you'd be correct.

How do you sleep at night, knowing that oligarch cash might be going to cure somebody's illness instead of buying weapons?

Bellingham Bill says

So fuck you and your idiotic ideology. The past way of doing things was broken and "ObamaCare", for all its imperfections, is a step towards progress.

No thanks to you a-holes.

Awwwww, c'mon Bill. Don't go away mad. What's the matter? You democrats rammed this into law, w/ ZERO help/input from the GOP. You did anything and everything to make this happen, and refused suggestions/prodding/filibusters/threats of the GOP, and, holy of holies, NOW you blame the GOP for the abortion we call Obamacare?

Obama and Democrats OWN THIS. And now you have CBS, and the other water-carrying MSM (finally) turning on Obama, and reporting the truth about this disaster.

I think it would be best to redirect your sweet-nothings and affection to your dear leader, Pelosi, etal... Because that's where it belongs.

Don't believe me on the media finally turning on Obamacare? We only have scratched the surface when Mother Jones even says Dem incumbents are in trouble......

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/10/new-poll-shows-democratic-incumbents-big-trouble

I like the idea of a government website where I can shop and price compare, but it's poorly implemented. Whole idea needs work.

edvard2 says

The people in charge of the rollout have taken the blame and so has the President. What else do you want them to do?

Be fired or quit in disgrace.

zzyzzx says

Be fired or quit in disgrace.

That's stupid.

edvard2 says

That's stupid.

People who screw up that badly should be fired. Of course since it's a government job, they aren't. Don't you take issue with that?

Wealth redistribution and entitlements only work when most of society contributes sufficiently into the communist system. Anybody have data as to whether the US is a good candidate for that?

AverageBear says

I'm sure this has been posted alredy by now. But only six(!) signed up for Obamacare the first day??!! From what I read, over 4 million visits, but only 6 signed up?

That's a lie. You're talking about only the federal site. That is for the whiny red states whose leaders decided it was more important to sabotage healthcare than to serve their constituents, so they refused to set up state exchanges. You cannot say "only 6 people signed up for Obamacare the first day" because a whole lot of people ALSO signed up in their own states which have their own exchanges.

AverageBear says

Obamacare is wealth re-distribution, pure and simple.

Absolutely. But unlike all the other wealth-transfer schemes: QE, TARP, Fed discount window, bailouts, low capital gains rate, etc. - this one actually transfers the wealth in the right direction, to people who actually need help.

AB said: Obamacare is wealth re-distribution, pure and simple.
I don't think you'd like the other alternatives for wealth redistribution as they tend to be violent and ugly.
Let's break it down. The Top 20 percent control almost 90% of the wealth in the US. Here's what the Top 20 look like:
Top 20 Percent mean income: $226,200
Top 20 Percent mean net worth: $2,061,600
I'm not big on redistribution, but as those types of schemes go, ACA seems better than most. Meanwhile, the Top 20 continue to Hoover up the wealth while the bottom 80 percent are left with crumbs.
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

HydroCabron says

AverageBear says

See, this is the weath-distribution thing you don't want to talk about.

I love talking about wealth distribution!

I am in totally in favor of wealth distribution. The government should use force to redistribute wealth.

I heart wealth distribution!

The problem with advocating and endorsing the use of force to satisfy the will of the people, it may one day turn on you

AverageBear says

You democrats rammed this into law, w/ ZERO help/input from the GOP. You did anything and everything to make this happen, and refused suggestions/prodding/filibusters/threats of the GOP, and, holy of holies, NOW you blame the GOP for the abortion we call Obamacare?

Bullshit. The republicans have absolutely ZERO ideas. They were busy saying "We already have the best healthcare system in the world". Their big "idea" was to do nothing and leave the system broken.

Bellingham Bill says

smaulgld says

Instead they decided to build a web site, collect your information and then match you up (by mandate) with a PRIVATE company. I don't see any reason for it to have been done this way.

Only because idiot red states opted out of their state-level implementation.

coveredca.com ftw.

Obama couldn't win here with any reforms.

Medicare-for-all was "gov't death panels!" according to you right-wing morons.

PPACA's mandate is "forced commerce with evil private corporations!" according to you clowns.

UK-style NHS (healthcare run like public safety services) is of course communism to you guys.

Your guys idea of healthcare is "got mine fuck you".

That applies for absolutely everything in the conservative ideological playbook.

Whatever the reason, it still a big disaster. The name calling, "clowns" "got mine FU" make no sense. The criticism of O care is 100% valid it doesnt go away by attacking those criticizing it.