patrick.net

dublin hillz says

Repbulicans can never be held repsonsible for anything because they are a party of personal responsibility....

Democrats, conversely, will accept blame even when they're not responsible, so it all works out!

Dan8267 says

Bridghazi! Bridghazi! Bridghazi!

I'm sure the rightwing will think this is scandalous and hold hearings, because ya know, they don't have selective outrage.

Remember when Obama single-handedly ran the IRS, and then had the gall to investigate overtly and obviously political activity? Yes! This scandal will be "Lois Lerner" big!

CL says

Dan8267 says

Bridghazi! Bridghazi! Bridghazi!

I'm sure the rightwing will think this is scandalous and hold hearings, because ya know, they don't have selective outrage.

True, they are hypocrites, and this is way worse than even what the Republicans pretended Benghazi was. This is a case of government officials deliberately endangering hundreds of thousands of people just to punish a political rival for not siding with them. Such an abuse of power is criminal by any sane standard.

However, I still don't see anything that connects Chris Christie to this. So I have to give him the benefit of doubt. The worse you can say regarding Christie himself is that he choose really bad people to put into powerful positions. Sure, that's bad. But it's not in the same ballpark as what those bad people did.

Dan8267 says

This is a case of government officials deliberately endangering hundreds of thousands of people just to punish a political rival for not siding with them.

The key there is "rival". WTF? Why go to that extreme and that dangerous of an effort to punish a Democrat for not endorsing a Republican? I'm more surprised that any Democrats supported this jizzbag.

Remember, the crime is bad but the lies and cover up are what will do you in....

Benghazi! Benghazi!Benghazi! Benghazi!Benghazi! Benghazi!Benghazi! Benghazi!

Christie's a lying sack of shit. He ASSURED the media that he had spoken with all his staff and guaranteed that this wasn't an act of political retaliation. Now he's pleading ignorance? BULLSHIT!

Call it Crazy says

Oh please Dan, stop with the hysterics!!! Have you EVER driven over the GWB and through those traffic areas???

I'm basing my statements on what the article I post said.

Cops and lawmakers in Fort Lee said they were given no warning about the decision to close the lanes, which delayed school buses, first responders, and commuters bound for New York City. The Port Authority justified its decision by saying it was conducting a "traffic study."

In one case, the Bergen Record reports, the traffic jam slowed down paramedics as they tried to reach an unconscious 91-year-old woman. The woman later died in the hospital, though EMS officials say her death was not a direct result of the delays. In another case, it took paramedics seven to nine minutes—double the normal time—to reach a car accident where four people sustained injuries..

Now if you think that doubling the time it takes emergency responders to reach the emergency is no big deal, then that's your opinion. However, I doubt you would hold that opinion if a Democrat were responsible for this crime.

Call it Crazy says

You want to sue all the commuters now too??

No, what I want is for the criminals who endangered the public's safety for political gain to be prosecuted for their crimes. In other words, law and order and accountability.

A politician being a politician.

Dan8267 says

No, what I want is for the criminals who endangered the public's safety for political gain to be prosecuted for their crimes. In other words, law and order and accountability.

Not sure if serous. To successfully prosecute someone in this case you'll have to demonstrate a harm suffered by someone and then prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was caused by lane closures. No prosecutor in his right mind would take on a case like this. Not even Eric Placeholder. The only possible consequences could be political and even these would be minor.

Straw Man says

The only possible consequences could be political and even these would be minor.

Call it Crazy says

If that's what your looking for dude, you have some HUGE targets sitting in D.C. Why not try and focus your energies there, not on a traffic jam...

Apologism runs strong. Ask yourselves if you would be as lenient, as Dan suggested, if it were a Democratic Governor in NEW JERSEY who carried himself as a thug or mobster. Why do I suspect your cavalier attitudes would evaporate?

To expound, which "scandal" that has been thrown at Obama do you think is in fact, trivial?

CL says

Apologism runs strong. Ask yourselves if you would be as lenient, as Dan suggested, if it were a Democratic Governor in NEW JERSEY who carried himself as a thug or mobster. Why do I suspect your cavalier attitudes would evaporate?

Me lenient? Nope, just realistic. I've learned from the recent much more serious scandals which went nowhere. This will blow over even faster.

Straw Man says

Me lenient? Nope, just realistic. I've learned from the recent much more serious scandals which went nowhere. This will blow over even faster.

On this we agree then. I look forward to your detached, realistic view as we head to the midterms and the 2016 elections.

Still, as far as political baggage goes, I think it will drag him down quite a bit because it is thuggish, mobster activity and when coupled with his brashness it will create an image that will be hard to shake. I don't think people will gravitate to a guy that seems so small and petulant now.

And that's not even counting his disadvantage in the primaries, where the other candidates will bring this up to tarnish him. And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

But, similar to you, I've been watching this stuff long enough to know that 2016 is a lifetime away. By then the electorate could change in his favor, or he could be in jail.

sbh says

A tempest in a teapot

But if a democrat had done it, it would have been the crime of the century, no doubt.

Obama tells white lie that you can keep your insurance, which is technically true but misleading: Months and months of front page news coverage.

Christie endangers the public and possibly indirectly caused people's deaths in a petty, meaningless act of political retribution: A tempest in a teapot.

Wow, just wow.

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Straw Man says

To successfully prosecute someone in this case you'll have to demonstrate a harm suffered by someone and then prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was caused by lane closures.

If a cop or an ambulance is driving with its siren on to an emergency and I use my car to physically block the emergency vehicle and delay it, that's a crime. If I use 20 cars to delay that vehicle, it's a crime. If I use thousands of cars to delay multiple emergency vehicles, it's a crime. The last hypothetical is what Bridget Ann Kelly and David Wildstein and their ilk did.

A crime doesn't cease being a crime simply because you commit it on a massive scale.

Call it Crazy says

If that's what your looking for dude, you have some HUGE targets sitting in D.C. Why not try and focus your energies there, not on a traffic jam...

Focus my energies? Am I the prosecutor?

As a citizen, I can be outraged at these guys as well as the other republicans committing crimes in D.C.

Unlike Benghazi, this isn't a made up scandal.

Dan8267 says

If a cop or an ambulance is driving with its siren on to an emergency and I use my car to physically block the emergency vehicle and delay it, that's a crime. If I use 20 cars to delay that vehicle, it's a crime. If I use thousands of cars to delay multiple emergency vehicles, it's a crime.

First of all, it's an infraction. Maybe a minor misdemeanor. Secondly, there is a burden of proof that it was done by his direct order. And being a mere misdemeanor it doesn't give the prosecution enough bargaining power to lean on his (already fired) employee.

CL says

Call it Crazy says

If that's what your looking for dude, you have some HUGE targets sitting in D.C. Why not try and focus your energies there, not on a traffic jam...

Apologism runs strong. Ask yourselves if you would be as lenient, as Dan suggested, if it were a Democratic Governor in NEW JERSEY who carried himself as a thug or mobster. Why do I suspect your cavalier attitudes would evaporate?

Of course he wouldn't. It's all about party to him.

Now, there is no evidence that Christie played a role in this though. So let's not jump to conclusions. But if democrats were the ones doing this shit, I'd still be calling for their prosecution. Abuse of power cannot be tolerated.

Now since Christie assured the public that his staff had nothing to do with it, we can question if Christie is competent in appointing people to powerful positions and keeping them honest, something that's very relevant to a presidential run. But I'm not going to accept or advocate guilt by association.

Should this hurt Christie chances in 2016? Perhaps, but not as much as the left would like. Unless, of course, evidence comes out that Christie himself played a part in either the crime or the coverup. I haven't seen any such evidence yet.

sbh says

Oh, and Sarah Palin will have to figure out what continent to go visit now.

She said she was going to visit the continent of France, but she doesn't speak Spanish, so she's going to visit Chile instead.

CL says

On this we agree then. I look forward to your detached, realistic view as we head to the midterms and the 2016 elections.

You can always count on my detached realistic view on any subject. Except, of course, the cockeyed arm.

Homeboy says

Christie endangers the public and possibly indirectly caused people's deaths in a petty, meaningless act of political retribution: A tempest in a teapot.

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

CL says

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

It's all but forgotten by the media. I don't hear about it even on KSFO, which means it's gone from the spotlight.

Dan8267 says

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

LOL. If you believe Christie had nothing to do with it, let me sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

Homeboy says

Dan8267 says

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

LOL. If you believe Christie had nothing to do with it, let me sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

Now, if and when evidence showing Christie played a role in this crime comes to light, I'll change my mind, but my decision will be based on facts, not politics.

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

I'm VERY disappointed with you, Dan. It is obvious the fat-ass is even more guilty than dat kreepy-azz kraka I'm going to charge with civil right violations any moment now.

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do too, but this is not a trial, so that standard does not apply. If and when he is tried, then it should apply. Politicians are judged by their conduct in office. If the people don't approve of their conduct, they don't vote for them. Christie had assured the media that his staff did not cause the traffic jams as political retribution. He even sarcastically joked about the very idea being ludicrous. That implies that he did some sort of internal investigation and talked to the people who were responsible. Earlier, he admitted that proper protocols were not followed in doing this "traffic study", so he knew something wasn't kosher. Why would you even block off lanes to do a traffic study? That makes no sense. Quite obviously, his internal investigation was superficial at best. If he were truly innocent, and his staff truly went rogue, he should have gotten to the bottom of it. Clearly the evidence was there; Christie just failed to bring it to light. These are the actions of someone who is guilty, and was complicit in the crime. The only other possibility is that he is grossly incompetent, which I don't believe. But it doesn't matter, because I don't want a grossly incompetent president either.

Call it Crazy says

If you knew the normal daily traffic around that bridge, and the liberal MSM didn't tell you about this "scandal", you would think it's just another day in NJ/NY traffic hell...

That's bullshit. Those lane closures quadrupled commute times, according to the press.

Call it Crazy says

Christie just re-won the election in a BLUE state, run by democrat controlled legislative branches...

Um, that was before this evidence came to light. You do know this was just revealed a couple days ago, don't you?

Call it Crazy says

And MILLIONS lose their coverage...

The only thing anyone "lost" were junk insurance policies that didn't cover anything. If they would bother to simply go on the exchange and sign up for a new policy rather than screaming, they would find it's actually quite affordable.

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

It didn't just "cause a traffic jam"; it caused a week of horrendous traffic and endangered the public. That lady was delayed in getting to the hospital, and she DIED. They're saying the delay wasn't the cause, but it easily could have been. We may not ever know if anyone died that week as a result of not getting emergency services quickly enough. Long story short - that's not the kind of thing you should be fucking around with just to get revenge on a political opponent. And shit, the guy wasn't even an opponent; he was just a guy who wouldn't endorse Christie. You can try to downplay it all you like, but those are the actions of a THUG.

Call it Crazy says

Yeah, I would say both of those "scandals" are on the same equal level....

Yes, I'm sure YOU would say that.

Call it Crazy says

Homeboy says

Call it Crazy says

Christie just re-won the election in a BLUE state, run by democrat controlled legislative branches...

Um, that was before this evidence came to light. You do know this was just revealed a couple days ago, don't you?

Your point?? Is he running for Governor again this year??

Son, you are thicker than molasses.

Call it Crazy says

Well, if the press said it, then it MUST be true!! We all know, the press never lies and twists facts, right??

They reported on the traffic situation the week it happened. That was before it came to light that Christie was responsible. Your little media conspiracy theory just doesn't pan out.

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

Now, if and when evidence showing Christie played a role in this crime comes to light, I'll change my mind, but my decision will be based on facts, not politics.

Why the sudden change of heart... You have him guilty, convicted and sent to prison just a little while ago??

Jesus fucking Christ! Do you actually read any posts or just skim them in a rush to respond?

I have not in any of my posts stated that Christ Christie should be imprisoned. I stated that Bridget Ann Kelly and David Wildstein should be prosecuted for this crime. That's a big difference. You know, different people and different demand.

By the way, I fully reserve the right to have a "sudden change of heart" in any matter when new evidence is brought to light. There is nothing wrong with flip-flopping on a position due to a better understanding, increased knowledge, or new evidence. Only fools stick to their beliefs when their beliefs do not hold up to reality.

I might very well flip-flop and say Christie should be prosecuted, but not until there is a damn good reason to do so.

Well, Freud and Jung quarreled and they were on the same psychology squad as "psychoanalysts" so it's completely understandable and justifiable what krispy kreme did....

dublin hillz says

so it's completely understandable and justifiable what krispy kreme did....

Raising popular anger and blocking lanes under false pretense are legitimate instruments of power.

It's sort of like going to war under false pretense - except Americans care.

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

To believe your spin, we'd need to believe:

that lane closures on this busy thoroughfare don't make it much worse, which defies any kind of traffic system I've ever seen.

That Christie "looked into it", gave his word that he wasn't involved, not anyone in his administration. Then they lied to him, but he fell for it.

That, although it may have killed a woman (and maybe others), it didn't result in a tremendous amount of lost productivity.

On that last point, wouldn't such a business-friendly guy at least be held accountable for costing millions of dollars to spite someone in an opposing party (and a low-level one at that).

He's guilty at least of poor judgement; either in who he surrounds himself with, to whom he gives his trust, and voters would be right to question whether they could trust his word (since he "looked into it", which is shorthand for "if you believe me generally, extend that credibility to me here").

Logic says he was involved and this is the cover up. But, as Homeboy said, this isn't a trial, it's the court of public opinion. If his polls stay high, I would write it off as mass delusion.

CL says

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

To believe your spin, we'd need to believe:

that lane closures on this busy thoroughfare don't make it much worse, which defies any kind of traffic system I've ever seen.

... it may have killed a woman (and maybe others)...

I wouldn't throw this kind of stones in a glass house, because every time Obama visits SF for private fundraising dinner he seriously worsens traffic situation in and around the city. Which may have killed a woman or two.

Straw Man says

I wouldn't throw this kind of stones in a glass house, because every time Obama visits SF for private fundraising dinner he seriously worsens traffic situation in and around the city. Which may have killed a woman or two.

You really don't see the difference? You don't see normal operating procedures as fundamentally different than spite driven churlishness?

And then I wonder what you'd say about the Governor's use of helicopters?

CL says

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

Wow! The administration must be trying to make sure that Benghazi just fades away, eh?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-names-militants-involved-benghazi-attack-21486991

CL says

You really don't see the difference? You don't see normal operating procedures as fundamentally different than spite driven churlishness?

I say, let's charge anyone who crashes his car and causes traffic jams with all the deaths in 20 mile radius. Because crashing your car is not normal operating procedure and you're not supposed to do it.

And then I wonder what you'd say about the Governor's use of helicopters?

I need more information to say anything. Did he eat all the helicopters?

CL says

Wow! The administration must be trying to make sure that Benghazi just fades away, eh?

Well, maybe I'm wrong and there's still hope.