patrick.net

Dan8267 says

If a cop or an ambulance is driving with its siren on to an emergency and I use my car to physically block the emergency vehicle and delay it, that's a crime. If I use 20 cars to delay that vehicle, it's a crime. If I use thousands of cars to delay multiple emergency vehicles, it's a crime.

First of all, it's an infraction. Maybe a minor misdemeanor. Secondly, there is a burden of proof that it was done by his direct order. And being a mere misdemeanor it doesn't give the prosecution enough bargaining power to lean on his (already fired) employee.

CL says

Call it Crazy says

If that's what your looking for dude, you have some HUGE targets sitting in D.C. Why not try and focus your energies there, not on a traffic jam...

Apologism runs strong. Ask yourselves if you would be as lenient, as Dan suggested, if it were a Democratic Governor in NEW JERSEY who carried himself as a thug or mobster. Why do I suspect your cavalier attitudes would evaporate?

Of course he wouldn't. It's all about party to him.

Now, there is no evidence that Christie played a role in this though. So let's not jump to conclusions. But if democrats were the ones doing this shit, I'd still be calling for their prosecution. Abuse of power cannot be tolerated.

Now since Christie assured the public that his staff had nothing to do with it, we can question if Christie is competent in appointing people to powerful positions and keeping them honest, something that's very relevant to a presidential run. But I'm not going to accept or advocate guilt by association.

Should this hurt Christie chances in 2016? Perhaps, but not as much as the left would like. Unless, of course, evidence comes out that Christie himself played a part in either the crime or the coverup. I haven't seen any such evidence yet.

sbh says

Oh, and Sarah Palin will have to figure out what continent to go visit now.

She said she was going to visit the continent of France, but she doesn't speak Spanish, so she's going to visit Chile instead.

CL says

On this we agree then. I look forward to your detached, realistic view as we head to the midterms and the 2016 elections.

You can always count on my detached realistic view on any subject. Except, of course, the cockeyed arm.

Homeboy says

Christie endangers the public and possibly indirectly caused people's deaths in a petty, meaningless act of political retribution: A tempest in a teapot.

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

CL says

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

It's all but forgotten by the media. I don't hear about it even on KSFO, which means it's gone from the spotlight.

Dan8267 says

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

LOL. If you believe Christie had nothing to do with it, let me sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

Homeboy says

Dan8267 says

Not Christie. There is no evidence, yet, that Christie had a hand in this. If such evidence comes up, then fine, nail him to the wall, but not until then.

LOL. If you believe Christie had nothing to do with it, let me sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

Now, if and when evidence showing Christie played a role in this crime comes to light, I'll change my mind, but my decision will be based on facts, not politics.

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

I'm VERY disappointed with you, Dan. It is obvious the fat-ass is even more guilty than dat kreepy-azz kraka I'm going to charge with civil right violations any moment now.

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do too, but this is not a trial, so that standard does not apply. If and when he is tried, then it should apply. Politicians are judged by their conduct in office. If the people don't approve of their conduct, they don't vote for them. Christie had assured the media that his staff did not cause the traffic jams as political retribution. He even sarcastically joked about the very idea being ludicrous. That implies that he did some sort of internal investigation and talked to the people who were responsible. Earlier, he admitted that proper protocols were not followed in doing this "traffic study", so he knew something wasn't kosher. Why would you even block off lanes to do a traffic study? That makes no sense. Quite obviously, his internal investigation was superficial at best. If he were truly innocent, and his staff truly went rogue, he should have gotten to the bottom of it. Clearly the evidence was there; Christie just failed to bring it to light. These are the actions of someone who is guilty, and was complicit in the crime. The only other possibility is that he is grossly incompetent, which I don't believe. But it doesn't matter, because I don't want a grossly incompetent president either.

Call it Crazy says

If you knew the normal daily traffic around that bridge, and the liberal MSM didn't tell you about this "scandal", you would think it's just another day in NJ/NY traffic hell...

That's bullshit. Those lane closures quadrupled commute times, according to the press.

Call it Crazy says

Christie just re-won the election in a BLUE state, run by democrat controlled legislative branches...

Um, that was before this evidence came to light. You do know this was just revealed a couple days ago, don't you?

Call it Crazy says

And MILLIONS lose their coverage...

The only thing anyone "lost" were junk insurance policies that didn't cover anything. If they would bother to simply go on the exchange and sign up for a new policy rather than screaming, they would find it's actually quite affordable.

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

It didn't just "cause a traffic jam"; it caused a week of horrendous traffic and endangered the public. That lady was delayed in getting to the hospital, and she DIED. They're saying the delay wasn't the cause, but it easily could have been. We may not ever know if anyone died that week as a result of not getting emergency services quickly enough. Long story short - that's not the kind of thing you should be fucking around with just to get revenge on a political opponent. And shit, the guy wasn't even an opponent; he was just a guy who wouldn't endorse Christie. You can try to downplay it all you like, but those are the actions of a THUG.

Call it Crazy says

Yeah, I would say both of those "scandals" are on the same equal level....

Yes, I'm sure YOU would say that.

Call it Crazy says

Homeboy says

Call it Crazy says

Christie just re-won the election in a BLUE state, run by democrat controlled legislative branches...

Um, that was before this evidence came to light. You do know this was just revealed a couple days ago, don't you?

Your point?? Is he running for Governor again this year??

Son, you are thicker than molasses.

Call it Crazy says

Well, if the press said it, then it MUST be true!! We all know, the press never lies and twists facts, right??

They reported on the traffic situation the week it happened. That was before it came to light that Christie was responsible. Your little media conspiracy theory just doesn't pan out.

Call it Crazy says

Dan8267 says

I believe in innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

When there is zero evidence supporting the guilt of a person, that's more than reasonable doubt.

Now, if and when evidence showing Christie played a role in this crime comes to light, I'll change my mind, but my decision will be based on facts, not politics.

Why the sudden change of heart... You have him guilty, convicted and sent to prison just a little while ago??

Jesus fucking Christ! Do you actually read any posts or just skim them in a rush to respond?

I have not in any of my posts stated that Christ Christie should be imprisoned. I stated that Bridget Ann Kelly and David Wildstein should be prosecuted for this crime. That's a big difference. You know, different people and different demand.

By the way, I fully reserve the right to have a "sudden change of heart" in any matter when new evidence is brought to light. There is nothing wrong with flip-flopping on a position due to a better understanding, increased knowledge, or new evidence. Only fools stick to their beliefs when their beliefs do not hold up to reality.

I might very well flip-flop and say Christie should be prosecuted, but not until there is a damn good reason to do so.

Well, Freud and Jung quarreled and they were on the same psychology squad as "psychoanalysts" so it's completely understandable and justifiable what krispy kreme did....

dublin hillz says

so it's completely understandable and justifiable what krispy kreme did....

Raising popular anger and blocking lanes under false pretense are legitimate instruments of power.

It's sort of like going to war under false pretense - except Americans care.

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

To believe your spin, we'd need to believe:

that lane closures on this busy thoroughfare don't make it much worse, which defies any kind of traffic system I've ever seen.

That Christie "looked into it", gave his word that he wasn't involved, not anyone in his administration. Then they lied to him, but he fell for it.

That, although it may have killed a woman (and maybe others), it didn't result in a tremendous amount of lost productivity.

On that last point, wouldn't such a business-friendly guy at least be held accountable for costing millions of dollars to spite someone in an opposing party (and a low-level one at that).

He's guilty at least of poor judgement; either in who he surrounds himself with, to whom he gives his trust, and voters would be right to question whether they could trust his word (since he "looked into it", which is shorthand for "if you believe me generally, extend that credibility to me here").

Logic says he was involved and this is the cover up. But, as Homeboy said, this isn't a trial, it's the court of public opinion. If his polls stay high, I would write it off as mass delusion.

CL says

Call it Crazy says

Which causes a traffic jam and causes some people to be late for school and work, and in the larger spin, a 91 year old lady has a heart attack...

To believe your spin, we'd need to believe:

that lane closures on this busy thoroughfare don't make it much worse, which defies any kind of traffic system I've ever seen.

... it may have killed a woman (and maybe others)...

I wouldn't throw this kind of stones in a glass house, because every time Obama visits SF for private fundraising dinner he seriously worsens traffic situation in and around the city. Which may have killed a woman or two.

Straw Man says

I wouldn't throw this kind of stones in a glass house, because every time Obama visits SF for private fundraising dinner he seriously worsens traffic situation in and around the city. Which may have killed a woman or two.

You really don't see the difference? You don't see normal operating procedures as fundamentally different than spite driven churlishness?

And then I wonder what you'd say about the Governor's use of helicopters?

CL says

Straw Man says

CL says

And if they can tie the death(s) to him, it will have a lasting effect.

Nah. He'll pretend to lose it, scream "What difference at this point does it make?" and it all will be forgotten. ;)

Wait...if it was "all forgotten" somebody better tell Issa, and 90% of the GOP and 100% of the flying-monkey right. Benghazi has not Ben-forgotten there.

Wow! The administration must be trying to make sure that Benghazi just fades away, eh?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-names-militants-involved-benghazi-attack-21486991

CL says

You really don't see the difference? You don't see normal operating procedures as fundamentally different than spite driven churlishness?

I say, let's charge anyone who crashes his car and causes traffic jams with all the deaths in 20 mile radius. Because crashing your car is not normal operating procedure and you're not supposed to do it.

And then I wonder what you'd say about the Governor's use of helicopters?

I need more information to say anything. Did he eat all the helicopters?

CL says

Wow! The administration must be trying to make sure that Benghazi just fades away, eh?

Well, maybe I'm wrong and there's still hope.

Krispy Kreme just wanted people to stop and think so bringing flow of traffic to a screeching halt was the way to do it. And what other choice did he have knowing that new yorkrers are basically zombies on crystal meth that would make adolph hitler seem like he was on pot?

Straw Man says

I say, let's charge anyone who crashes his car and causes traffic jams with all the deaths in 20 mile radius.

It's called vehicular manslaughter, and they DO charge people who commit it. My god are you ever stupid.

Homeboy says

Straw Man says

I say, let's charge anyone who crashes his car and causes traffic jams with all the deaths in 20 mile radius.

It's called vehicular manslaughter, and they DO charge people who commit it. My god are you ever stupid.

Right. Somebody thinks that all deaths within 20 miles of traffic jam caused by an accident are called "vehicular manslaughter" and I'm the stupid one. A-ok.

Straw Man says

Right. Somebody thinks that all deaths within 20 miles of traffic jam caused by an accident are called "vehicular manslaughter" and I'm the stupid one. A-ok.

If a person deliberately crashed his car into others, yes, it would be a crime, probably a felony.

More relevant to Bridghazi would be the situation in which a person deliberately blocked an emergency vehicle that was on the way to an emergency. And yes, that would be a crime as well.

Bridget Ann Kelly and David Wildstein effectively used thousands of vehicles to obstruct police, ambulances, and fire fighters in active duty. And they did so deliberately and with criminal intent. The emails prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

As much as you dislike it, the Republicans have been caught doing something sleazy, dangerous, and illegal less than two years before a presidential election.

Dan8267 says

More relevant to Bridghazi would be the situation in which a person deliberately blocked an emergency vehicle that was on the way to an emergency. And yes, that would be a crime as well.

We've been though this once: blocking emergency vehicle is a misdemeanor. Look it up.

Dan8267 says

Straw Man says

Right. Somebody thinks that all deaths within 20 miles of traffic jam caused by an accident are called "vehicular manslaughter" and I'm the stupid one. A-ok.

If a person deliberately crashed his car into others, yes, it would be a crime, probably a felony.

I've written Homeboy off, but you, Dan, I still have a glimmer of hope for you. First of all, if person deliberately crashes his car and doesn't directly injury or kill anyone it won't be a felony, so let's get this out of the way. Now, do you really-really think that if person deliberately crashes his car, closing two lanes of freeway, this person will be legally responsible for all deaths in 20 miles radius from the resulting traffic jam?

Call it Crazy says

Wow, you and and that other conspiracy guy should get together and go on a speaking tour about 9/11, Sandy Hook and Bridgeghazi!!!

But first tell us, did that 91 year old lady have a cockeyed arm?

I know it's tough for you to come to grips with the fact that your hero is a scumbag, but you really need to end your denial-fest.

Homeboy says

Clearly the evidence was there; Christie just failed to bring it to light. These are the actions of someone who is guilty, and was complicit in the crime. The only other possibility is that he is grossly incompetent, which I don't believe. But it doesn't matter, because I don't want a grossly incompetent president either.

Someone is grossly incompetent because some staffer does something dumb and lies about it? You've obviously never been in charge of other people and I can certainly see why.

Did you read the story at all or just the headlines. Christie's staffer Kelly sent an email to Wildsten at port authority who arranged to block the lanes. Do you really believe Christie monitors and reads every email sent by his staff? Do you really believe Christie is supposed to be monitoring every action of the port authority, a huge bi state independent agency? That's just stupid. Traffic jams at the GW bridge? Yea right that's really suspicious enough for the govener of NJ to look into. Sort of like the sun rising in the east.

I'll go with Christie's explanation until something turns up that says there is more to it than a staffer being an idiot.

To put things in proper perspective, how many people have Obama fired over the IRS scandal and Obamacare webpage debacle?

bob2356 says

Someone is grossly incompetent because some staffer does something dumb and lies about it? You've obviously never been in charge of other people and I can certainly see why.

Yes, I've been in charge of people, and I considered myself responsible for their actions, as any competent person would. I can see that YOU obviously have never been in such a position.

bob2356 says

Did you read the story at all or just the headlines. Christie's staffer Kelly sent an email to Wildsten at port authority who arranged to block the lanes. Do you really believe Christie monitors and reads every email sent by his staff? Do you really believe Christie is supposed to be monitoring every action of the port authority, a huge bi state independent agency?

Obviously I did a lot more reading that you did. As I wrote before (and apparently you didn't read), Christie assured the media that he had spoken with his staff and was convinced that there was no political retribution involved. When the press made a public records request for email correspondence related to the lane closures, Christie's office said no such emails existed. Only after a subpena was issued were the incriminating emails released. So we have Christie claiming that he had investigated the matter and was convinced there was no wrongdoing, and then stonewalling outside investigators who tried to obtain documents about the incident, in addition to ADMITTING proper protocols weren't followed in the lane closures. Yet we now have a mountain of proof that this was a deliberate act of political retaliation. Only two possibilities exist: That Christie is so incompetent that he couldn't figure out the extremely obvious fact that something fishy was going on in his own office, or he is a liar.

I could maybe buy that this thing happened without him knowing about it, but I cannot buy that he looked into it with any degree of thoroughness at all and still didn't discover anything suspicious.

zzyzzx says

how many people have Obama fired over the IRS scandal

Nobody's life was put in danger because of the IRS actions. Worst that happened was some scumbag teabaggers had to pay taxes that they owed.

zzyzzx says

and Obamacare webpage debacle?

The webpage is fixed. Haven't you heard?

bob2356 says

I'll go with Christie's explanation until something turns up that says there is more to it than a staffer being an idiot.

It was a lot more than "a" staffer, dude:

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/01/chris-christie-fort-lee-charlie-mckenna-text-message

Homeboy says

Yes, I've been in charge of people, and I considered myself responsible for their actions, as any competent person would. I can see that YOU obviously have never been in such a position.

So any time one of your staff screwed up you considered yourself grossly incompetent? I've had employees screw up and lie about it. Everyone has. You're really going to try to claim it never happened to you. Either total bullshit or you've full of shit about managing people.

Homeboy says

It was a lot more than "a" staffer, dude:

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/01/chris-christie-fort-lee-charlie-mckenna-text-message

This article is a joke.

Christie could be pure as the fallen snow or in it up to his eyeballs. Either way I'm going to wait to see what comes out. Too bad you are so partisan you can't even define objective, much less try it.

bob2356 says

So any time one of your staff screwed up you considered yourself grossly incompetent?

Aw, for christ's sake, Bob. Could you try fucking READING what I write? Christie told the press he had investigated the matter - that he had spoken to his staff and was convinced they had done nothing wrong. If that really happened, and he's not just a lying sack of shit, then he's incompetent. Are you incapable of understanding the difference? Here's a simple analogy that maybe can get through to you:

If one of my employees does something wrong, that doesn't mean I'm necessarily incompetent. But if there are news stories every day about it, and the person affected by the wrongdoing CALLS MY OFFICE and speaks to my chief of staff, and tells her that he believes wrongdoing has occurred, and members of the press contact me, and I assure them that no wrongdoing has occurred, and then it turns out there were a TON of clues that something fishy was going on, that I failed to notice, then yes, I would be incompetent.

bob2356 says

This article is a joke.

You are a joke.

bob2356 says

Christie could be pure as the fallen snow or in it up to his eyeballs. Either way I'm going to wait to see what comes out. Too bad you are so partisan you can't even define objective, much less try it.

Fuck you. Partisan's got nothing to do with it. The people who are rabidly partisan are the ones saying, "Oh yeah, well Obama this and Hillary that..." That's irrelevant. I am judging this by the evidence, and there's NO WAY IN HELL Christie could have done the internal investigation he claims he did without uncovering the fact that something wasn't right. You're just refusing to see it.