patrick.net

edvard2 says

clueless

Iosef V HydroCabron says

Pathetic.

ooh - name-calling, that's really winning for your party, isn't it? Gee it's great that you're so concerned about my health then, that you would sacrifice everything ("no lifetime caps") to keep me around. If you dislike me so much, why not simply leave me alone instead of insisting on conscripting me into your Act supposedly for my own good (really for the corporate sponsors who have you hooked on their pills and deluded by their commercial news, "brought to you by" - and interrupted by "a word from our sponsors" - PhRMA)?

curious2 says

I'm a big fan of the Enlightenment, especially the part where people are allowed to live their own lives according to what they believe instead of being conscripted into the latest fad religion e.g. Obamneycare. Remember the first five Presidents, all products of the Enlightenment, lived a median 82 years with no access to modern medicine, which didn't exist at the time.

LOL! You can't seriously be using the first five Presidents as 'proof' of longevity, or in this case the average longevity of the average American during that time... right? Oh- but you are.
Big problem with that theory, which is just as bad as the others you've presented today: The men you're talking about were well-off. Naturally if you're well-off, you can afford better living standards, more access to modern medicine, and better food.

In the 1776 the average life expectency was 35 years. In other words, I'd be well past old age myself and and actually be beating the standard of the time. Yisereee... I'm the ripe ole' age of 38. Wow.

Do you want to know why people live longer today? Well an awful lot of it has to do with improvements in modern medicine. So now we have the potential to increase access to healthcare in general. So I find it amusing that there are those out there who probably bought hook, line, and sinker from the various billionaire-funded, fake grass roots organizations like the Tea Party the lie that access to more healthcare is taking away... from... their... FREEEEEDOM!!!!

Well it don't count if the people KNOW you're full of shit.

curious2 says

ooh - name-calling, that's really winning for your party, isn't it?

Nuttin' said about party. Those comments were in regards to general conversational observation. I don't care if a person is a Democrat, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative. When I read nonsense I call it out for what it is.

edvard2 says

average

LOL - I didn't even use the word "average" I said median, learn the difference. I chose those five because their lifespans are undisputed, most of them were well off but all their money couldn't buy any modern medicine because it did not exist. More importantly, they were all educated; education remains the best predictor of longevity, while money and insurance "pale in comparison." The major increases in life expectancy are almost entirely due to reducing infant mortality, and that is due mainly to potable water, vaccines, and antibiotics, all of which are cheap in countries where you can actually buy them yourself without needing to buy permission first. You're the one deluded by fraudulent billionaires, e.g. Bill McGuire.

curious2 says

LOL - I didn't even use the word "average" I said median, learn the difference. I chose those five because their lifespans are undisputed, most of them were well off but all their money couldn't buy any modern medicine because it did not exist.

Same fucking difference. Median means the "middle number". These men had access to things the majority of the populace didn't. Hence they lived longer, and yes- they did in fact have access to healthcare then, which despite the differences between today's medicine and that of that period, having access to that healthcare meant they could receive treatments for ailments that most otherwise did not. So my point still stands.

Just spit it out: Are you trying to tell us all here that healthcare isn't necessary? Some are rather curious because this conversation grows more amusing by the minute.

edvard2 says

Are you trying to tell us all here that healthcare isn't necessary?

No. But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power. Just because legislation has "health" in the title doesn't make it good for your health.

edvard2 says

Some are rather curious

I am curious. You are a partisan parrot. Notice how almost all my comments have links to actual sources and real data, while you merely taunt and call me names like a schoolyard bully. SURPRISE: I'm not afraid of bullies, so your tactics only cost you what respect I had for you.

edvard2 says

In the 1776 the average life expectency was 35 years.

This is 1850, but interesting. Life expectancy for white Massuchessets men by age:

0 38.3
10 58.0
20 60.1
30 64.0
40 67.9
50 71.6
60 75.6
70 80.2
80 85.9

Read more: Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2011 | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html#ixzz2xlLnYLcx

So people old enough to live to be President are already in the elite 70+ age survivorship. Add in that they get the best living conditions available and it's not surprising to see another 10 years of longevity.

Bellingham Bill says

Read more: Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2011 | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html#ixzz2xlLnYLcx

Thanks - btw it shows the females lived even longer. The main difference between the Presidents and other males was, the Presidents were all educated, and education remains the best predictor of longevity.

curious2 says

No. But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power. Just because legislation has "health" in the title doesn't make it good for your health.

Exactly! So you just correctly pinpointed one of the main reasons the ACA was passed in the first place.curious2 says

I am curious. You are a partisan parrot. Notice how almost all my comments have links to actual sources and real data, while you merely taunt and call me names like a schoolyard bully. SURPRISE: I'm not afraid of bullies, so your tactics only cost you what respect I had for you.

Am I? No. I simply think for myself. I have an opinion and when I see something that doesn't make sense I make a comment. For example, seeing the parts mentioned about SSRI's being toxic and harmful combined with a link to a study which has nothing to do with SSRI's means I feel compelled to call that out and make corrections. Secondly, I don't call people names. The verbiage I used had nothing to do with you and everything to do with the comments. Understand the difference. Calling people names on a forum is lame. Open debate is not "Bullying". Additionally, don't act like you are totally guilt-free of the exact same type of behavior, so don't act all innocent.

curious2 says

But most of the spending is either useless or injurious, driven by political patronage networks for their own power

well, yeah, given that our $9000 per-capita is 3X that of more efficient health systems, that's true.

But to change that we have to start somewhere, and ACA was what our corrupt system was able to vend us.

It is entirely conservative, and that's its main problem, but too much reform means you are fighting very powerful interests, interests that can torpedo political careers quite easily.

See 1993-94 and HillaryCare for how that worked.

And also the 2010 wave election that wiped out many ACA supporters after the GOP lied about ACA cutting Medicare (it cuts Medicare Part C, the idiot 1990s conservative attempt to get more Medicare money to their patrons).

From an NPR article I read a couple years ago, the seratonin suppressor form of antidepressants came out in a bad light. No scientifically significant benefit was derived toward this end in double blind studies, but the advertising campaign for their use towards this condition was WILDLY successful. It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance" which can be easily corrected by inventive pharmaceutical intervention. This leads to a fair amount of them getting off their beds and walking, obviously miracle cures.
What is known, however, is that the placebo effect is very real. When the mind is convinced that it's receiving a cure, it will often react to this with positive feedback that actually increases health and immunity. The mind-body connection is very strong in most humans, and this is the reason we do placebo trials. Thinking of the mind and the body as two unrelated systems is erroneous, and is the source of hundreds of billions in futile medical treatment each year.

What happened to the rest of the 40 millions of uninsured: death panels killed them?

edvard2 says

becoming more popular.

Ugh.

Again with the numbers.

Just because Talking Points Memo says something, doesn't make it so.

edvard2 says

starting to work

Well, yes, spending has increased, so it's operating as designed.

Quigley says

From an NPR article I read a couple years ago, the seratonin suppressor form of antidepressants came out in a bad light. No scientifically significant benefit was derived toward this end in double blind studies, but the advertising campaign for their use towards this condition was WILDLY successful. It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance" which can be easily corrected by inventive pharmaceutical intervention. This leads to a fair amount of them getting off their beds and walking, obviously miracle cures.

Yes... you too are now a qualified scientist since you read an article on NPR, and therefor it must be true, and SSRI's are a bunch of hooey. I read an article one time too. It said that Vaccines caused Autism. Must be true then.

Like I said- talk all you want about SSRI's not working. As someone who is on them and tried many other things before, I can say that they do indeed work and unless you're someone who also has these same issues and has been through treatment, then you don't really have a say in this debate.

Reminds me of the coffee commercial, we switched this restaurant's regular coffee with [blank's] crystals. Watch out for the day the pharmacist counts out the wrong pills into your little bottle. At least because citalopram has a longer half-life than paroxetine, you're less likely to experience those "not habit forming" "discontinuation syndrome" withdrawal symptoms.

Pro-Tip: when swallowing your toxic SSRI placebos, always use bottled water.

Quigley says

It seems that people who are a little bit nuts and can't control their own minds prefer to think of their condition as a "chemical imbalance"

I'm lost: how is it not chemical, given that our entire bodies are chemicals?

What is known, however, is that the placebo effect is very real.

True story - anecdote, not data: the placebo effect worked on my cat.

My cat was leaking all over the place - outside the box - and the vet said "try a sliver of Prozac."

Thanks to the placebo effect, my cat thinks she's less anxious, and therefore is less anxious. Has not tinkled on the rug since then.

I am going to start taking a placebo every day.

curious2 says

Pro-Tip: when swallowing your toxic SSRI placebos, always use bottled water.

I've already proved repeatedly that SSRI's are no more dangerous than any other drug, but if you want to keep on yammerin' on about it, feel free. Just realize most people with at least some degree of intelligence will raise eyebrows.

CaptainShuddup says

The Liberals tried to convince that everyone was a winner

No, you're thinking of conservatives who tried to convince people that they will be rich if they just stick it out a little longer. Prosperity is just around the corner as it has been for 200 years. All you have to do is give tax breaks to the rich and soon you'll be one of them.

My mom swears that Kangen (TM) brand alkaline water has cured her illnesses, helped her lose weight, and helps with joint pain.
I looked this up and it was easily disproved that ingesting alkaline water has any effect at all on the body, as it's instantly titrated by stomach acid. The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm. If your blood acidity grows, you feel a need to breathe, and exhale CO2, which is the mechanism by which the body regulates oxygen/CO2 levels. This is why if you hold your breath, you feel like your lungs are on fire and feel a strong desire to breathe, but if the cabin of a high altitude airplane is depressurized, everyone just passes out.

All this said, referenced, and based on scientific fact could not sway my mom from her steadfast belief in the miracle cure that is Kangen water.

Some people were just born to believe.

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

Say hey! This was in the Wall Street Journal on March 30, 1999. Note "... how much it will buy."

Holy cow/interesting/compelling ...!

And where is it up to date??? Right here ... see the first chart shown in this thread.
Recent Dow day is Wednesday, April 2, 2014 __ Level is 105.5

WOW! It is hideous that this is hidden! Is there any such "Homes, Inflation Adjusted"? Yes! This was in the New York Times on August 27, 2006:

And up to date (by me) is here:
http://patrick.net/?p=1219038&c=999083#comment-999083

WOW! The UNtrustworthy are certainly in control of what information is apparent to the people!

And http://patrick.net/?p=1230886

Quigley says

The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm.

Don't buy into the lies!

The very concepts "pH" and "buffer solution" are the creations of - yeah, you guessed it! - the scientific establishment, who are given grants on condition that their research bolsters predetermined conclusions acceptable to Big Pharma and FedGov.

Wake up, sheeple!

Quigley says

I looked this up and it was easily disproved that ingesting alkaline water has any effect at all on the body, as it's instantly titrated by stomach acid. The human body maintains a constant pH of 7.55, and any deviation of more than 0.05 will be noticed immediately. If the goal of the water was to raise blood PH by decreasing acidity, it would be doing the body harm.

There could be more to that than just belief. It could be the body's reaction to correct the ph level that may be beneficial in her case. Not everybody has too much acid, a lot of people don't make enough stomach acid (esp. after overuse of anti-acids and antibiotics or just in general), which fosters the growth of yeast and unwanted gut bacteria. You never know.. ;)

Why did you change the name?

zerohedge says

But even though so many of us are aware of what is happening to us, we just can't seem to break out of it as a nation.

It really does seem like most people are walking around in a fog these days.

Maybe the fact that 70 million Americans are on mind-altering drugs has something to do with it.

Or maybe a bunch of middle-aged guys are confusing the deterioration of their bodies and minds for deterioration in society at large, as middle-aged guys are wont to do.

Quigley says

My mom swears that Kangen (TM) brand alkaline water has cured her illnesses, helped her lose weight, and helps with joint pain.

Ahhh.. I see what you did there. So basically you mention how you disproved how quack medicine ( alkaline water) doesn't cause people to lose weight and therefor that totally makes your previous point about SSRI's valid. Brilliant!

You know what? I read an article that cigarettes are good for you. I know you might find it hard to believe, but I'm not one to believe mountains of scientific and medical facts which claim otherwise. You see, I never went to medical school and so I can with confidence say I know a lot more than they do and so whatever I say here on this forum is true.

I see, thanks

This whole Obamacare is a bad joke on America.

It bears repeating what corntrolio said: Allocated is not the same as Spent.

Only dishonest right-wing propagandists would make the "mistake" of equating the two words or concepts.

OK, so if you only believe the manufacturer of your toxic SSRI placebos, here it is from the horse's mouth, the citalopram prescribing information including the black box warning mandated by FDA:

"Suicidality and Antidepressant Drugs

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders... (See WARNINGS: Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk, PRECAUTIONS: Information for Patients, and PRECAUTIONS: Pediatric Use.)
***
Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.
***
During marketing of Celexa and other SSRIs and SNRIs (serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors), there have been spontaneous reports of adverse events occurring upon discontinuation of these drugs, particularly when abrupt, including the following: dysphoric mood, irritability, agitation, dizziness, sensory disturbances (e.g., paresthesias such as electric shock sensations), anxiety, confusion, headache, lethargy, emotional lability, insomnia, and hypomania
***
SSRIs and SNRIs, including Celexa, may increase the risk of bleeding events."

Those are just the parts that relate directly to the OP. There's lots more, including that even the manufacturer's own data (see above about "rescue countries") found those pills were twice as likely to cause nausea as benefit, but at least citalopram isn't as bad as its more popular cousin paroxetine (advertised on TV as Paxil). Also, you seem to misunderstand the word toxic, so you might want to look that up. I'd link to a definition but, this being a forum, you wouldn't believe me.

Call it Crazy says

What Happens When "The Workers" Just Don't Care Anymore?

You consume a lot more bodily fluids, especially if you're rude and/or don't tip well.

Somehow your sites always show that google screen saying something about unusual traffic.

edvard2 says

Whatever "studies" these are I would dearly love to see.

Well, there are a number of them. Here is one, published in JAMA, that got a lot of attention a few years ago:
"The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms"
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185157
Hey, if the placebo works and the side effects are manageable (no homicidal or suicidal ideation, or severe libido decline, I hope) I say go for it.

SSRIs work on inhibiting seratonin reuptake by the cells, i.e. making more of it available at synapse. However, issues such as anxiety/depression have more going on than simply low levels of seratonin. There are a myriad of nuerotrasmitters that may be at play such as dopamine, gaba, etc. SSRIs don't do anything for those and some other substances that target dopamine have many deleterious side effects. In fact even SSRIs have been linked to suicidal tendencies in teenagers so they are not really "safe" from holistic perspective. And the fact that they must be taken for life is outright frightening.

sbh says

Nuthin' wurth lernin' ever comithout a beatin'.

How did you learn about sex?

New Renter says

Call it Crazy says

What Happens When "The Workers" Just Don't Care Anymore?

You consume a lot more bodily fluids, especially if you're rude and/or don't tip well.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/tSWnmOvgyKc

dublin hillz says

the fact that they must be taken for life is outright frightening.

Especially since the price (including the required Rx) has been increased artificially to levels that most people can't even afford, thus converting the addicts into compulsive advocates for mandatory subsidized insurance. The more people PhRMA can put on addictive "not habit forming" pills, and the higher it can raise the prices with subsidies and "no lifetime caps," the more captive constituents it can corral into its CAFO feedlot. BTW, the increased suicidality is particularly pronounced (i.e. around double the risk compared to placebo) in the 18-24 cohort, precisely the age of many of the returning vets who are offing themselves as described in the OP.

Dan8267 says

Capitalism rewards only one thing: bargaining power. It does not reward wealth production. If you want to be rich, don't do anything productive. Get real good at playing zero-sum games, especially with other people's money. That's the way America works, so why should Americans actually do work?

This is where I had to dislike your comment. You should get a better understanding on who and what capitalism rewards. If you truly think America is capitalist country, then you clearly don't know what a capitalist economy is.

spydah_hh says

If you truly think America is capitalist country, then you clearly don't know what a capitalist economy is.

I'm not going to get into a nomenclature debate about "capitalism" vs "corporatism". Our economy is the end-result of the capitalist philosophy which is that ownership is king. The "capital" in capitalism means money. Capitalism literally means an economic system controlled by those with the most money. So, no, wealth production isn't what gets rewarded by capitalist economies.

Dan8267 says

It tastes like shit

What are you drinking?

A Margarita with Cabo Wabo pure agave silver tequila, fresh squeezed lime juice, some sugar water, and a splash of Cointreau is delicious.