patrick.net

G.W. Bush & his bring it on BS may lead to some of those Brown People saying, We will bring it to Americans all over the world.

Wonder if it would be wise to stay in the U.S.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Oh, and by the way, torture has made us LESS safe.

Silly myth.

I've quoted a multitude of evidence that says torture gained us nothing and instigated more terrorism. You choose to ignore evidence that is contrary to your agenda.

Strategist says

LOL. You really think it will stop the likes of ISIS from taking off the heads of Westerners who have nothing to do with the military.

I think that Russia and her allies will use the same "intensive interrogation" on our soldiers as America uses on its captives and Putin will justify those means by citing the U.S. as precedence.

One last thought. Ever wonder why Jesus never tortured or killed anyone? Ever wonder why Superman does not behave this way? It's because you can't be a good guy and do such things. It takes away your moral authority.

America would be able to further a stable a peaceful world much better if it hadn't lost it's credibility in the human rights department. We can't stop Syria from committing genocide because of our own illegal and heinous actions. We can't stop Russia from taking over Ukraine territory because of the same reason. We can't even stop Egypt from falsely imprisoning journalists on clearly bogus charges of terrorism because our country does the same damn thing.

There is a very real, material cost to using any means to accomplish an end. You might accomplish that end, but you give up the ability to accomplish other ends.

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

We can all agree ISIS is the mother of all terrorist organizations, right?

It's not.

Im gonna puke.

thunderlips11 says

Well, shit, torture me and I'll want to kill the torturers too. Torture my brother/uncle/aunt/friend, and I'll want to kill.

Giving the enemy stronger morale by torturing his guys creates more enemies, not less.

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

Oh, and by the way, torture has made us LESS safe.

Silly myth.

I've quoted a multitude of evidence that says torture gained us nothing and instigated more terrorism. You choose to ignore evidence that is contrary to your agenda.

Lot more evidence that torturing terrorists works. Ofcourse, you disregarded that.

Dan8267 says

I think that Russia and her allies will use the same "intensive interrogation" on our soldiers as America uses on its captives and Putin will justify those means by citing the U.S. as precedence.

What? We are not at war with Russia, and there are no American prisoners in Russian hands.

Dan8267 says

One last thought. Ever wonder why Jesus never tortured or killed anyone? Ever wonder why Superman does not behave this way? It's because you can't be a good guy and do such things. It takes away your moral authority.

What moral authority? Your version? I think it's immoral not to torture terrorists in order to save innocent lives.
If I had supernatural powers like Jesus and Superman, I would not have to torture. But I don't have those magic powers, so I have to be more realistic.

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

Well, shit, torture me and I'll want to kill the torturers too. Torture my brother/uncle/aunt/friend, and I'll want to kill.

Giving the enemy stronger morale by torturing his guys creates more enemies, not less.

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

LOL. It's all America's fault as usual.

Strategist says

Lot more evidence that torturing terrorists works. Ofcourse, you disregarded that.

The report specifically says Torture didn't work.

Again, WE sent people to Mubarak, Assad, and Ghaddafyi to be tortured.
http://t.co/xyW7BjAFKN

Now we say Assad is bad, because he tortures people - but Mubarak being let go without punishment, well, that's an Egyptian thing.

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Silly myth. Lots of terrorist acts have been stopped because of torturing terrorists. We found Bin Laden from information got from torture.

No, we didn't. This is a common misconception, thanks to Zero Dark Thirty.

The report issued yesterday, as well as publicly-available information prior to the report, made it clear that this is not the case.

Bullshit!
Even Panetta admitted torture led to the capture of Bin Laden.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

Lot more evidence that torturing terrorists works. Ofcourse, you disregarded that.

The report specifically says Torture didn't work.

We know who made that report.

Strategist says

We know who made that report.

Yeah, the US Senate, that den of Radical, Ideological Pacifists. And we're seeing the highly redacted version.

mmmarvel says

I have a son-in-law who is finishing a deployment at Gitmo. He will tell you that the folks there only have our deaths on their minds. They will die, and die happily trying to kill you (and me) in any way possible.

Some people think if we are nice to terrorists, they will be nice to us.
Lets send them a Xmas gift and see what we get in return.

Strategist says

Some people think if we are nice to terrorists, they will be nice to us.

Lets send them a Xmas gift and see what we get in return.

Others say that we should give up strawman arguments, because they hate America's children and want to see them molested by rabid wombats!

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

Well, shit, torture me and I'll want to kill the torturers too. Torture my brother/uncle/aunt/friend, and I'll want to kill.

Giving the enemy stronger morale by torturing his guys creates more enemies, not less.

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

What? That isn't the reason Daesh rose to power. You're swinging from massive exaggeration to ridiculous oversimplification now.

Strategist says

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

Silly myth. Lots of terrorist acts have been stopped because of torturing terrorists. We found Bin Laden from information got from torture.

No, we didn't. This is a common misconception, thanks to Zero Dark Thirty.

The report issued yesterday, as well as publicly-available information prior to the report, made it clear that this is not the case.

Bullshit!

Even Panetta admitted torture led to the capture of Bin Laden.

Really? So this is a total fabrication? http://www.politicususa.com/2013/02/03/panetta-oliterates-torture-led-bin-laden-myth.html or this http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/exclusive-private-letter-from-cia-chief-undercuts-claim-torture-was-key-to-killing-bin-laden/2011/03/03/AFLFF04G_blog.html
or any one of dozens of other sources? It's all just made up?

Amazing that real war heros who have been there and done that all say torture doesn't get good information yet neocon chickenhawks like you are all in favor of it anyway.

Amazing that neocon chickenhawks have no clue what values and morality american society are based on.

I'm beginning to suspect a serious shortcoming in the masculinity department requiring a size XXXS jock strap drives this kind of thinking.

This work by the CIA is right up there with blowing up embassies, flying planes into buildings, and threatening to blow up entire countries.

The US is our own enemy and the political correctness is limiting.

Strategist says

Lot more evidence that torturing terrorists works. Ofcourse, you disregarded that.

Proof by assertion.

Strategist says

What? We are not at war with Russia, and there are no American prisoners in Russian hands.

Are you so short-sighted that you can only consider what is happening right now? Is there no chance that we will ever be at war with Russia or one of her allies?

Strategist says

I think it's immoral not to torture terrorists in order to save innocent lives.

And the Nazis thought it was immoral not to torture and kill Jews. And ISIS thinks it is immoral not to torture and kill all infidels, including you.

Thank you for demonstrating my original thesis that although the allied powers won WWII, the Nazis won the real war of ideology.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

Well, shit, torture me and I'll want to kill the torturers too. Torture my brother/uncle/aunt/friend, and I'll want to kill.

Giving the enemy stronger morale by torturing his guys creates more enemies, not less.

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

LOL. It's all America's fault as usual.

Actually, it's all the fault of
- the Bush administration
- the Obama administration
- the warfare industry (which masquerades as a defense and security industry)

It's not the fault of us liberal Americans, or anyone with a moral backbone.

Entitlemented says

This work by the CIA is right up there with blowing up embassies, flying planes into buildings, and threatening to blow up entire countries.

The CIA is just part of the warfare industry. Just because they don't do everything themselves doesn't mean they aren't an integral part of the problem. That said, the work done by the CIA or in conjunction with the CIA does match your list nicely.

1. blowing up embassies --> targeted assassinations of politicians, journalists, and political dissidents

2. flying planes into buildings --> flying smart bombs and missiles into buildings that kill all those inside including civilians and children. And such buildings include hospitals and schools.

From The Guardian

US aircraft hit a Red Crescent maternity hospital in Baghdad, the city's trade fair, and other civilian buildings today, killing several people and wounding at least 25, hospital sources and a Reuters witness said.

The attacks occurred at 9.30am (0630 BST) and caught motorists by surprise as they ventured out during a lull in the bombing. At least five cars were crushed and their drivers burned to death inside, Reuters correspondent Samia Nakhoul said.

Targeting a maternity hospital? That's literally going right after newborn babies and about to be born babies. That's fucking low. That's way worse than targeting the World Trade Center.

3. threatening to blow up entire countries --> The United States is the ONLY nation that has ever nuked a city, and the U.S. did it twice. The United States also killed off entire countries called, solely because of historical bias, Native American "tribes". A large tribe is a nation.

Oh, and one more thing. CIA Torture Practices Started Long Before 9/11 Attacks. 9/11 was just a justification for what the despicable parts of our government were doing for a long time, at least since WWII.

Again, it comes back to America adopting the Nazi philosophy and incorporating it into our culture and our government.

How is it that it is morally reprehensible, even criminal, to mistreat an Animal in this country, yet torturing a Human Being is acceptable, sanctioned and our tax dollars support it?

Dan8267 says

2. flying planes into buildings --> flying smart bombs and missiles into buildings that kill all those inside including civilians and children. And such buildings include hospitals and schools.

...or weddings and other gatherings. Any male 12+ is considered a "potential militant" or the best weasel word, "Male of military age" which further reduces the real "Collateral Damage."

But, Dan, it's clear many mammals in our society are unable to get beyond Fourlegsgood/Twolegsbad Animal Farm thinking.

(snipped off topic rant)

Terrorists are Evil because they kill, torture, and disrespect the Rule of Law. We are not Evil when we kill, torture, and disrespect the Rule of Law.

In a similar vein:

This isn't an eye for an eye, it's an asshole for an asshole!

Call it Crazy says

HydroCabron says

No, we didn't. This is a common misconception, thanks to Zero Dark Thirty.

Due to a Hollywood movie??

Have some respect for conservative political philosophy, will ya?

- Scalia cited "24" when discussing torture.
- Many conservatarians believe that Hollywood screenwriters are the filth of the planet, but believe "It's a Wonderful Life" to be a documentary of life in the past.
- "Zero Dark Thirty", "24" and "Dirty Harry" are the basis of conservative theories on torture. "Zero Dark Thirty" is cited by conservative "researchers" as the primary evidence for the effectiveness of torture in catching Obama.

I don't know why conservatives are so stupid and unpatriotic, but they are.

sbh says

We torture Frank demanding that he give info about Joe. Frank has blown up some schoolkids but he doesn't know Joe. But we keep torturing him until he lies about Joe. After we've tortured Joe we find out he's innocent. Do we go back to torturing Frank some more?

Nope. We just shoot him. You said he blew up school kids, death is all he deserves.
Allow me to refine your story......It was Frank (Mohammad) and his buddy Joe (Ali) that blew up the kids. Mo. got caught, but Joe escaped to carry on with their next plan of blowing up a Kindergarten. We torture Mo. to squeal on his buddy Ali. He caves in and tells us which Kindergarten and when it will be bombed. With 60 seconds to go the police find Ali and kill him. 50 innocent toddlers are saved.
Next day the libruls sue the police for killing poor Ali.

Dan8267 says

LOL. It's all America's fault as usual.

Actually, it's all the fault of

- the Bush administration

- the Obama administration

- the warfare industry

It's called America.

Dan8267 says

It's not the fault of us liberal Americans, or anyone with a moral backbone.

I agree. Sadly, I am one of the few with a "moral backbone" The rest are phony :)

sbh says

Once you put a bag over someone's head and start making them TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY you're no longer innocent

What if I just want them to tell the truth?

thunderlips11 says

Ha ha. Loved that cartoon. Little moocher drank the breast milk when mom could have sold it to make a living.

sbh says

One time they just kept telling him to retake the test. They just insisted there was "some anomaly" and that they were going to persist until it was resolved. He knew he had to "give" them something, something suitable, plausible, but ultimately a fabrication with just enough foundation to allow his readings to pass muster as well. He did, and they were satisfied.

Can explain exactly what you mean here? I don't quite get it.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

LOL. It's all America's fault as usual.

Actually, it's all the fault of


- the Bush administration


- the Obama administration


- the warfare industry

It's called America.

The fact that you equate a small, but powerful, part of our government with America is what's truly sad. America is not its government and certainly not the most corrupt parts of its government.

Washington, D.C. is a cancer in America, not America itself.

The whole question of torture could have been avoided if the military had “just killed all these guys when they were captured on the battlefield,” when no one would have noticed, a former senior CIA officer told me over lunch today.

I set up an interview a few weeks ago with him to talk about the situation in Iraq. When we met today, naturally the subject of the Senate’s report on torture came up. He’s pretty hardline on military issues, as you’d expect.

In his view, torture is worse than killing people, because it doesn’t work, which was obvious before the release of the Senate report and further confirmed by it. A person being tortured will tell you anything you want to hear, even if it’s all lies, and a lot of the victims had to lie because they didn’t have valuable information to begin with.

“It doesn’t matter what tactics you use, you’re not going to get information if people don’t know anything and most of these Gomers didn’t know shit,” he said. “Who in the leadership was stupid enough to think they would? Why would these guys have detailed knowledge about plans and targeting? Even if they were hard-core jihadis who took part in operations, that doesn’t mean they would have knowledge of upcoming attacks.”

sbh says

DAMN RIGHT! We hold 'em under water for fifteen fucking minutes. If they fucking die, they're Gomers who don't know nuthin'. If they live we torture 'em until they tell us what we already know and then we hold 'em under water for thirty minutes just for being fuckin' terrorists. If they die it proves they told us the truth.

HOW CAN YOU ARGUE WITH THAT?

Enhanced interrogation techniques Monty Python style.

Here is something sensible.
1. All members of any known terrorist organization must be assumed guilty.
2. They must be killed or captured.
3. If captured, they must tell us everything we need to know, regardless of how that information is derived.
4. Once we are done with them, we feed them to the sharks.
Keeping it simple :)

Dan8267 says

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

Nope ISIS is O's handiwork.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

Nope ISIS is O's handiwork.

Bullshit.

indigenous says

Dan8267 says

Exactly. That's why ISIS rose to power. That's why there is more terrorism now than before 9/11.

Nope ISIS is O's handiwork.

Because you believe it should be true?

The French King and the Catholic Church used enhanced interrogation on de Molay and the Knights Templar, proving they praised Mammon, kissed the Goat, worshipped Satan, etc. etc.

If they hadn't used interrogation, would they have discovered all the baby sacrificing to Satan that was going on in the 14th Century?

Baby sacrificing to Satan is horrible.

bob2356 says

Because you believe it should be true?

Not that you ever back up your assertions...

Does it ever occur to you mutts that there is a logical disconnect when goat herders know how to use high tech weapons?

This at about 22min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AgwBpv-h8

Or google ISIS and Obama

and baby sacrificing via libby abortions is not??

thunderlips11 says

Baby sacrificing to Satan is horrible.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

Because you believe it should be true?

Not that you ever back up your assertions...

Does it ever occur to you mutts that there is a logical disconnect when goat herders know how to use high tech weapons?

This at about 22min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AgwBpv-h8

Or google ISIS and Obama

I skipped through parts of that broadcast. It wasn't an argument for ISIS being Obama's handiwork. It was an argument for non-intervention. It also points to the central role of GW. Did you even listen to any of it before linking it?

Bigsby says

It was an argument for non-intervention. It also points to the central role of GW. Did you even listen to any of it before linking it?

Listen to at the time I stated and google ISIS and Obama and the CIA

indigenous says

Bigsby says

It was an argument for non-intervention. It also points to the central role of GW. Did you even listen to any of it before linking it?

Listen to at the time I stated and google ISIS and Obama and the CIA

I did. He's complaining about Obama's intervention. He's not saying Obama is responsible for Daesh. He then goes on to make the assertion that Assad would have defeated the insurgency without Obama's intervention. Based on what? The intervention in Syria was very low key for a long time. I didn't notice Assad making great strides to regain control of all of Syria. And this person is a radio host for an antiwar show. What exactly makes him an expert on the Middle East?

Bigsby says

I did. He's complaining about Obama's intervention. He's not saying Obama is responsible for Daesh. He then goes on to make the assertion that Assad would have defeated the insurgency without Obama's intervention. Based on what? The intervention in Syria was very low key for a long time. I didn't notice Assad making great strides to regain control of Syria. And this person is a radio host. What exactly makes him an expert on the Middle East?

..

It is implied, and I'm sure he mentions it elsewhere. His depth of knowledge of the Middle East is impressive. Pick your poison would you rather go to there yourself? or listen to the NY Times? Or triangulate?