patrick.net

I find it interesting that it only took 20 (or less) years after our first "energy crisis" for huge gas hog SUVS to become so popular, which lets face it was a way the market was saying gas prices were too cheap.

That was wasteful and did need to correct itself, but it wasn't a conspiracy. Not to suggest that correcting American over-consumption was all that the whole cycle was about.

CaptainShuddup says

I prefer to go by the facts rather than being mansplained by the Energy Information Administration. Let's not forget these guys are not TRYING to make my case. The facts are just speaking for them selves to keep Gas prices high. Its been the only ink in the QE printing press.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MGFUPUS2&f=M

Those numbers don't even account for Great recession or any dip that the sheer volume of lost jobs caused. That is supplied Gasoline, gas that was refined but no cars to stick it in.

Captain I really hate to confuse you with facts. Retail sales by refiners has plummeted because refiners have been selling off their retail outlets in large numbers. Refiners are less than 10% of the retail market. Here is total sales. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=C100000001&f=M. No they aren't sticking all that gas in cans behind the stations either.

I have zero hope of you understanding the difference but I tried.

Call it Crazy says

marcus says

That was wasteful and did need to correct itself, but it wasn't a conspiracy. Not to suggest that correcting American over-consumption was what the whole cycle was all about.

It's a good thing you're doing your part to save the planet driving your Kia Rio.

Let me guess. You're one of those oversize SUV drivers. Makes you feel like a big man does it ?

Call it Crazy says

anonymous says

A better way to support your argument would be through Motor Vehicle Registration numbers.

That would prove nothing. Just because a car is registered doesn't mean it's driven regularly or not at all.

Of course not, people just love to spend 20-50k for lawn ornaments then pay thousands to register and insure them. . http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/charts/indicators/miles-driven.html?miles-driven.gif. What? OMG a whopping 2% drop in miles driven since 2007. Be still my beating heart.

How the hell do people manage to use 50% less gas while driving 100% more miles compared to the captain's magical 1983? Advanced math as per the captain once again.

marcus says

Let me guess. You're one of those oversize SUV drivers. Makes you feel like a big man does it ?

Penis size and truck size are inversely proportional.

Well, I think we've all learned something here and no I don't mean about CIC's insecure self image.

CaptainShuddup says

We quit importing refined gas in 2012.

I was wrong, the difference is not about imported gas (my conjecture in other thread). Also not about refiners closing (except with respect to retail).

It's about the gas that refiners sold wholesale (not retail). I think. That is I think that explains the huge decrease in the data the captain presents at the top.

CaptainShuddup says

ve got my proof there are less than half the cars on the road than 1983

Spoken like someone who does not know how to do research or draw conclusions. A fall in gasoline usage does not imply fewer cars on the road. Cars become more efficient; people drive fewer miles as telecommuting becomes possible; goods are transported and distributed more efficiently as online sales increase. Lots of factors.

Why not simply look up car usage if that's what you are concerned with?

I like the dip in cars per household at the end while total cars remain constant indicating that more people are living single (or divorce). Now that's how to draw a conclusion!

Or if you want to know how much driving is being done...

This comes from the Department of Transportation's Federal Highway Commission as reported by Advisor Perspectives.

That last graph was hard to make sense of, compared to gas consumption info above. How could gas consumption be up when miles driven are down (with more efficient cars) ? Answer: that graph is population adjusted, giving a snapshot of the change in average person's driving per year? ( I think)

This is probably more meaningful relative to the thread.

Obviously this grah will be making new highs this coming year, or soon thereafter.

Dan8267 says

indicating that more people are living single

What about families simply getting rid of third or second cars? Tightening their budgets as it were. You know crash, great recession, etc...And selling those cars to people who got rid of clunkers with cash for clunkers. IF say a kid lived in a household with parents, he might get cash for clunker and then save a while before buying a better used car from some family that's getting rid of a second or third car. But yeah, part would also be millennials moving out of their folks house or going off to college.

Call it Crazy says

bob2356 says

I have zero hopes of understanding the difference but I tried.

That's typical for you...

That was just pathetic, even for you. Going to call 7-11 and ask if they have white owl in a can for your next trick?

marcus says

It's about the gas that refiners sold wholesale (not retail). I think. That is I think that explains the huge decrease in the data the captain presents at the top.

Read the top of the chart again. The part that says retail sales by refiners.

bob2356 says

The part that says retail sales by refiners.

I understand. I was even questioning that in another thread with the captain before he started this thread

MAybe reread what I said. I do understand. I also posted this above. marcus says

Yeah. BAO is right. From his link.

When I said this (right before what you just quoted),

marcus says

I was wrong, the difference is not about imported gas

I was referring to the difference between refiners retail versus gas consumed. Maybe you can interpret what I was saying.

The actual reason for that particular comment was that I thought it possible that in the other thread my conjecture about imported gasoline (already refined) explaining that his numbers couldn't be actual gas consumed, might have lead the captain to get excited and post this thread when he realized that imports of refined gas were actually down.

MY current understanding: Nearly all the gas consumed in this country did indeed come from refiners because the imported gas numbers are fairly low. But obviously a lot of it was sold by refiners wholesale, in to the supply chain, and not retail.

It is a strange metric to track though, that is refiner retail sales.

marcus says

It is a strange metric to track though, that is refiner retail sales.

It's a meaningless metric that the captain simply doesn't understand what it is. Almost all the majors have shed their directly owned retail stations. Most refiner owned that are left are smaller regional refiners.

anonymous says

Exxon-Mobil and others got out of the retail end of the business years ago citing poor margins but the brand names are still out there.

Actually there are 3 types of retails. Refiner owned, branded, and unbranded. Only refiner owned is counted in the cap's charts. The branded stations have the name but buy wholesale like unbranded. Branded gets a preference on deliveries if there is a shortage and they pay a fee for the national marketing costs of the refiner brand. Unbranded simply buys wholesale from whoever has the best prices.

anonymous says

Cap I give up. I posted figures for total consumption,

The FUCK you say you did! You posted a link to Oil Produced, you personally WROTE some meaningless figures in a forum thread asshole stop calling bullshit facts Oilboy!

I on the other hand, have produced hard proof and facts.
That chart you posted was
"U.S. Product Supplied of Finished Motor Gasoline (Thousand Barrels)"

Which like I said, is the result of refining Oil for other product that we still need and are consuming. While we've got so much Oil that if Nixon did not create the EPA, we would be dumping the excess Gasoline in a revine somewhere, to keep this party sham going.

The jig is up fuckers.

marcus says

Yeah. BAO is right. From his link.

Right about what?

Call it Crazy says

marcus says

That was wasteful and did need to correct itself, but it wasn't a conspiracy. Not to suggest that correcting American over-consumption was what the whole cycle was all about.

It's a good thing you're doing your part to save the planet driving your Kia Rio.

You have a pretty good internet connection there in Afghanistan, which is where you volunteered to serve since you are a sworn neocon.

Shouldn't you be out on patrol right now?

Show me ASSHOLES where on the EIA site does it define US Product supplied Gasoline as "Gasoline Consumed"?

Here's the Gas consumed that's IF you're interested in facts.
And I gotta tell ya, I've known you assholes a long damn time now, and none of you bastards are least bit interested in FACTS!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x4oz1hCXrS0/UykP_VX9nqI/AAAAAAAADyQ/ofn24d6f9eE/s1600/Finished+Motor+Gasoline.jpg

http://www.americanfuels.net/2014/03/2013-gasoline-consumption.html

The EIA sure is mealy mouthed about it aren't they.

Here's another take on it, and none of the pages seem to say the same thing. They look more like propaganda charts than accurate data.
This page the timeline only goes to 2010, while at the bottom it clearly states it was updated in 2014.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mgfupus1&f=a

Well the EIA wouldn't want to spook the idiot bulls now would they?

Let em run and enjoy them selves. Now you idiots have ran your dumb asses right to the slaughter. Now get some, but the facts are still facts.

There are 1/3 mother fuckers driving on the road today, as I have been saying for years, while you Idiots were droning on and on about hybrids, hydrogen, and $5.00 gas tax to combat the imaginary foe of the billions of non existent cars on the roads. You've all been lied to and are as gullible as cute meat rabbit.

YOu get to that page by clicking on the 1945-2013 link.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_psup_a_EPM0F_VPP_mbbl_a.htm

Yet like I said it only goes to 2010.

So it turns out that my initially expressed skepticism towards the originally reported numbers was well founded.

The original numbers indicated a 60% drop in gasoline consumption from 2007 to 2013. It sounded much too good to be true, and it was. In fact, the claim made was completely false. Those numbers just showed a drop in gasoline sales from brand-name refineries to brand-name stations (Chevron, Texaco, BP, Valero, whatnot). It did not account for all refineries, brand-name or not, doing brisk business selling to no-brand statons like Arco, Coast, and the like.

Assuming that Shuddup's new and different source is correct, 2013 vs 2007 gasoline consumption dropped by a measly 5.5% (1-134.5/142.3).

One could wish that the orginal interpretation of the wrong data was true, but alas not. US gasoline consumption is STILL sky high. We need to do more. Everyone should be getting 50mpg average by now, not 22 or whatever the current lousy number is.

Call it Crazy says

Oh, look who shows up.... Did mommy allow you to borrow her computer for some computer time before you go off to daycare?

Goes to show that a liberal in day care has more common sense than a grown-up chicken-hawk neocon armchair warrior.

http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/columns/gagliardi/

By Lou Gagliardi on Jun 11, 2013 with 2 Comments
Slow Economic Growth Puts Gasoline Consumption in a Downward Spin

As we have built more fuel efficient transportation vehicles over the years, we have been able to curtail our consumption of motor gasoline and distillates – diesel. However even with more fuel efficient vehicles, our gasoline consumption as measured by the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) of total product supplied has been fairly stable since the 1980’s as more vehicles have come onto the road to offset greater fuel efficiency. Then in 2008, the Great Recession hit brought on by the financial crisis and the trend accelerated dramatically downward. By 2008 fuel consumption began to slide downward, by 2012 gasoline consumption literally fell off the cliff.

gas demand lags

The primary catalyst for the dramatic decline in motor gasoline demand has been weak economic growth in the U.S. that has been exacerbated by stubbornly high retail fuel prices pegged to relatively high crude prices, despite a deepening global recession.

http://www.api.org/policy-and-issues/policy-items/fuels-and-renewables/renewable-fuel-standard-facts

Here's the best one by far, that goes back to my first data that I presented as the facts.

This guy even comments on what was happening.

In this guys thread, that made the same argument I did.
All of the schills had to retract their harsh reactions.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-08/gas-prices-consumption-and-why-average-american-being-left-behind

Even in 2008 it was apparent that Gas was a government created bubble, fueled by misinfomation from the ministry of propaganda and people like our dear Bubble Boy.

http://www.agmrc.org/renewable_energy/energy/u-s-gasoline-consumption-decline-does-it-affect-potential-ethanol-demand/

According to this chart the country is in deep cheap gas doo doo.

If Flordia is a high consumption state, then the rest of nation must be on a drip feed. We're just not consuming the Gas to warrent the bubble of the last 8 years.

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/01/31/why-is-us-oil-consumption-lower-better-gasoline-mileage/

meh why Kill my self, you either get the point, or you're just a schill or an investor who has made a killing in the last 8 years.

There will be no changing your mind. So just consider this post for the Edification of Marcus, because he seems genuinely duped by you bastards.

bob2356 says

Refiners are less than 10% of the retail market. Here is total sales. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=C100000001&f=M. No they aren't sticking all that gas in cans behind the stations either.

The page you requested cannot be located. Due to a redesign of the website, many pages have been moved. You may click on the links below to access the default Navigator page.

Okay Captain, go to this link that I'm quoting from you. You'll see the daily number of gallons

CaptainShuddup says

Why don't you state where I'm wrong. What I said about Gas is what I got from the link you provided.

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=gasoline_use

Now go to the bottom of that page under FAQs to the link that says

"How much gasoline does the United States consume per year?

THen on the page that takes you to you'll find a link that says:

"Annual and monthly gasoline consumption data in thousand barrels per day"

hit that and you'll find this grapgh and table.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mgfupus1&f=a

You sure don't know how to be wrong gracefully.

CaptainShuddup says

According to this chart the country is in deep cheap gas doo doo

There I am in that red area--it's because of my '77 Mercury that gets 12 MPG on the highway and 7 in town!

CaptainShuddup says

Even in 2008 it was apparent that Gas was a government created bubble,

Brain just can't learn anymore eh ?

marcus says

What you have been observing isn't a scam, but rather a chain of cause and effect.

Markets are forward looking. So prices went up in fear that demand would exceed supply in the not too distant future, based on rapidly growing worldwide demand and the best projections of how well supply will keep up. Don't forget the global economy was booming back then (compared to now).

In response to prices going up, two things occur. More people buy smaller and or more efficient cars, including a lot of hybrid cars. Also they possibly drive less.

The other effect of higher prices is that it becomes more profitable to get harder to get oil out of the ground. Many of the costs associated with this are up front costs of new wells etc.

So now, several years later, the 2 big effects of higher prices are lower demand and higher supply.

I honestly see no conspiracy here, but rather textbook examples of incredibly obvious market forces at work.

CaptainShuddup says

Marcus, because he seems genuinely duped by you bastards.

No, I'm just not an idiot.

I think that you can probably understand that gas being so expensive for the past 7 years had a big impact on both supply and demand. Worldwide car manufacturing and buying were deeply affected, for all of those years. AS was opening of new wells etc. and the bringing oil to market to cash in on those high prices.

If this was all simply the result of manipulators, it doesn't change the impact that these prices had on both supply and demand. If you are right that it's all manipulation, shoulsn't a ridiculous excess of supply relative to demand have kicked in several years sooner ?

Do you understand my question ? THere must be what 5 years of excess supply out there ? Where do they store it ?

PErhaps we did it to supply aliens with some kind of oil derivative ?

marcus says

hit that and you'll find this grapgh and table.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mgfupus1&f=a

Incomplete in accruate data that does not line up with the misinformation you and bubbleman is trying to put forth.

Why do you people hate the truth.

You keep going back to that erroneous assumption based on incomplete data, that represents somethign totally different than what you guys even claim.

Also let's not forget, it's NOT in the EIA's best interest to help me make my argument for me. They are simply industry cheerleaders playing Swami with the data to support $5.00 gas.

Let's not forget they are blaming OPEC for natural market forces.

2010 was 5 years ago assholes!

CaptainShuddup says

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/01/31/why-is-us-oil-consumption-lower-better-gasoline-mileage/

That article refers to fewer miles traveled, but that's per person not total. Dan posted a graph above that shows the population adjusted miles traveld, and then I posted the one that shows total miles traveled.

It is intersting that that your article seems to show more of a drop in other uses of oil than gasoline. This is from your linked article.

Spint it baby! SPIN IT!

You could be wrong way more gracefully.

marcus says

It is intersting that that your article seems to show more of a drop in other uses of oil than gasoline. This is from your linked article.

That's the US OIL products consumption chart you fucking IDIOT. Well no you're not actually an Idiot, you're just being intentionally misleading. Which is far more sinister.

That US OIL Products consumption chart is why we can't stop producing unwanted and uneeded gasoline.

How does this graphic from your linked article line up with your thesis ?

None of your charts even show the slightest dip for any recession activity or spikes for the housing bubble. It's pure unadulterated Liberal Filth and nothing more.