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MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Apr 5, 7:13pm
Note to self: Don't stick around when South Korean soldiers are nearby. Check out their list of war crimes since 1950. The Capital Division alone is accused of multiple incidents worse than My Lai, and it was the only division in Vietnam from South Korea (relative to divisions of US Army and Marines).
Strategist
2015 Apr 5, 7:21pm
we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.
Dresden (a city of no military significance, at the tail end of the War), Wounded Knee, Sherman's March to the Sea, N. Bedford Forrest all day and night long, Border Ruffians and Freestaters, No Gun Ri, and shit nobody's heard of like the Samar "Howling Wilderness" Campaign:
Thunder, all of mankind was barbaric at one time or other. Let's not excuse this same behavior in today's world, let's just stop it. We as humans want nothing more than peace, prosperity and progress, and the only way to achieve that is through education and democracy. Lets go for that.
no, he's not right.
we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.
only islam does that.
and it does it over and over and over and over...
No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.
curious2
2015 Apr 5, 11:23pm
no, he's not right.
we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.
only islam does that.
and it does it over and over and over and over...
No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia [sic], Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.
Violence happens in many places for many reasons, but Islam exalts violence to a level unrivaled in the modern world. Sharia requires murdering apostates and blasphemers, and huge numbers of Muslims around the world demand that must be imposed literally. They murder their own children, and call it honor. Islam is the last remaining religion to practice child sacrifice, and by some projections it will become the world's most populous religion, and these two facts are connected: child sacrifice wreaks such primal terror that none dare stand against it, and once they have gone to that extent, the mind can never consider that sacrifice to have been in vain. If you look at what happened in Gaza, consistently Hamas sacrificed children, for example by firing rockets from school zones and having all the schoolchildren stand outside on schoolyard balconies watching the rockets and awaiting return fire. It is the only religion where large numbers of people resort to violence over a cartoon - you could call the actual murderers isolated examples, but consider also the huge crowds demanding violent revenge and killing whoever among them shows insufficient extremism. In our "ally" Pakistan, specifically in the largest province (Punjab, population 100 million), a woman was going to be executed for "blasphemy;" when the Governor said she should be spared and not killed, the Governor of Punjab was assassinated by one of his own guards, and when the assassins (which itself is an Arab Muslim word, btw) were arrested, huge crowds demanded their release because they had only followed Sharia, and the crowds demanded that Sharia must be followed. Wherever Islam becomes the majority religion, the entire population suffer because of it. The GDP of the entire Muslim world adds up to less than Germany, and the Arab Muslim world adds up to less than Spain. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the liberal democracies that have embraced Muslim immigration, as Muslims become a larger voting bloc demanding policies more favorable to Islam, and ultimately Sharia.
Y
2015 Apr 6, 1:24am
Extremely damning evidence...
It will be very interesting to see what happens to the liberal democracies that have embraced Muslim immigration, as Muslims become a larger voting bloc demanding policies more favorable to Islam, and ultimately Sharia.
Violence happens in many places for many reasons, but Islam exalts violence to a level unrivaled in the modern world.
Islam doesn't exalt violence. The handful of people who control all the wealth in the muslim world exalt violence to keep the poverty stricken at bay. The US/Europe have aided and abetted this for a long time so the christian world is far from blameless.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 9:42am
no, he's not right.
we're talking about deliberate murder of innocent unarmed civilians.
only islam does that.
and it does it over and over and over and over...
I certainly agree that the above should be the definition of terrorist. I was just pointing out that by our screwed up laws today, the founding fathers would most certainly be considered terrorists.
As for religions that murder unarmed, innocent civilians, yes, Islamic religions are the only ones that does that on a mass scale today. Of course, Christian history is full of such atrocities. The only reason that Christianity does not do that today is that the power of the Christian religions has been almost eliminated in western civilization by atheists, agnostics, naturalists, secularists, and other rationalists. It took 400 years (from the latest 1500s to the start of the 20th century) to have a reasonable separation of church and state in western civilization. It has taken an additional 100 years to further reduce the corrupting power of religion on the state to the level we enjoy today, and yet there are still egregious violations of church and state in our society. Nevertheless, without the enormous effort to curtain the power of religions, Christianity and western civilization would look exactly like the Middle East, which is simply Medieval Europe in modern times.
Make no mistake, it's not the arbitrary and meaningless mythology of Islam that is to blame, but the fact that power is based on superstitious beliefs in the first place. Any mythology, any holy book, any god is a bad one. The only difference between Islam, Christianity, and any religion or family of religions is how much power the people give to it. The more power a religion has, the more evil it does. History has borne this out time and time again.
On the bright side, we now have a proven solution to the problem of Islam. It's the exact same solution as the one to the problem of Christianity. The religions and superstitions must be weakened and destroyed by scientific education, rational thinking, and the open exchange of ideas that are offensive to the religions. Introduce drugs, sex, and science to the Middle East, educate the women and give them the birth control pill, and get everyone on the Internet and the vile culture of Middle Eastern Islam will crumble for the exact same reasons that Christian culture has crumbled in the west.
Granted, we still will have a long way to go to eliminate religion and its corrupting effects, but the Middle East could be turned into a secular culture within our lifetimes using this approach. Of course, it helps to eliminate the effects of religion on our own society, so that we can eliminate those effects in other societies.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Apr 6, 9:49am
Christianity and western civilization would look exactly like the Middle East, which is simply Medieval Europe in modern times.
This.
Dan8267 says
Granted, we still will have a long way to go to eliminate religion and its corrupting effects, but the Middle East could be turned into a secular culture within our lifetimes using this approach. Of course, it helps to eliminate the effects of religion on our own society, so that we can eliminate those effects in other societies.
And this.
Women in the middle ages were sent to the Pillory or worse for adultery. Midwives who failed to deliver babies got accused of Witchcraft and Learned Men, Sorcery. This kind of humiliation and torture, including the stocks, continued for centuries. Scarlet Letter?
Not to mention the witch hunts. (Funny thing about witchhunts, in Scandinavia it was a near even number of Witches AND Male Warlocks. Those Vikings, so into equality)
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 9:53am
Islam doesn't exalt violence.
The statement that a religion doesn't promote violence is a common cop-out and lie. Just about every religion that has every existed has promoted violence under the demand of its god(s). All of the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are no exceptions. Some of the practitioners will cherry pick their holy books for peaceful messages while others will cherry pick for the promotion of violence, slavery, rape, or other vile acts. But every religion does engage in the promotion of violence when it suits its needs.
There are three positions that people take on this issue. One says don't blame all of Islam for the few who act violently. While somewhat fair, this statement ignores the fact that hundreds of millions of Muslims in the Middle East either actively engage in violence or support those who do. The second position is "Islam is evil, but other religions are not.". This position is also faulty because throughout history just about all religions have been violent and evil. The rare exceptions are religions that lacked any power, and had they gotten power, they would have become violent to gain more power.
The final position is that all power structures based on mythology, i.e. religions, are bad because basing power on lies inevitably causes corruption, violence, suppression, and destruction. Based on this position, the only difference between Islam and other families of religions is that Islam hasn't been neutered yet. We need to neuter Islam. We should also strive to eliminate all religion form our society by challenging their lies and showing how science answers all the questions that religion has failed to answer.
The best society, especially in a democracy or a republic, is one in which the population is educated and rational, and these two things are mutually exclusive with any religion.
No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.
I do think ISIS and other Muslim extremists are unique in that they do "exalt violence" with their various jihadi snuff videos of beheadings and burning prisoners alive to draw recruits from around the world.
Your list above (and even the Nazis) at least tried to hide their genocidal brutality from the press and the rest of the world.
Also, most of your list above are generally local tribal/ethnic disputes. We don't see these groups recruiting people across the world using a religious ideology to commit terrorism in Europe or North America to further their cause.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 9:56am
Women in the middle ages were sent to the Pillory or worse for adultery. Midwives who failed to deliver babies got accused of Witchcraft and Learned Men, Sorcery. This kind of humiliation and torture, including the stocks, continued for centuries. Scarlet Letter?
Not to mention the witch hunts.
Precisely, and as Russia has demonstrated, it is possible for a secular society to rapidly deteriorate into a religious society. When this happens rights are destroyed and life becomes less valued.
Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that our nation could descend into a second dark ages if we let religion, especially Christianity, loose. Just like we can eliminate the vile theocratic culture of the Middle East in one lifetime, we could also lose our society to a theocracy in a single lifetime.
MisdemeanorRebel
2015 Apr 6, 10:00am
No, not only islam. It happens all around the globe on a regular basis. Columbia, Rwanda, Chile, Xinjiang, Central African Republic (muslims were victims), Kivu DRC, East Timor, Sri Lanka, the list goes on.
Quick thought: When the IRA was blowing up buses and public places all over the UK and Eire in the 1980s, along with ETA (Basque Independence Terrorists) how come nobody blamed Catholicism?
(Another Thought: How come Europe and the UK didn't see a need for the Patriot Act style laws we have today, even though those attacks were far more frequent and better organized and pound for pound, more deadly?)
All of the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are no exceptions. Some of the practitioners will cherry pick their holy books for peaceful messages while others will cherry pick for the promotion of violence, slavery, rape, or other vile acts.
Atheists are the same way in how they ignore or cherry-pick the hundreds of millions killed in the last century by Communism. The Commies purposefully destroyed all of the religious communities and leadership so that there could be no outside moral critics of their rule.
The God-less Commies in 5 short decades in the 20th century killed hundreds of millions of human beings - so they shouldn't be too smug when criticizing the actions of ancient civilizations from the Bronze Age.
indigenous
2015 Apr 6, 10:07am
And yet we keep supporting terrorists with public transfers... sigh
Speaking of the Patriot Act:
Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that our nation could descend into a second dark ages if we let religion, especially Christianity, loose.
Chicken little paranoia. It seems that some Libs are ALWAYS convinced that the Taliban ("especially Christians") are ready to descend upon America and start forcing you to go to church.
What country do you live in Dan? Name a single Region or State in America that is more religious or fundamentalist Today than 10, 20, or 50 years ago.
Christianity has been the dominant religion in America since it's founding - and yet our country has been one of the most tolerant, pluralistic and religious friendly countries in the history of the planet.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 10:16am
Unfortunately, most Americans don't realize that our nation could descend into a second dark ages if we let religion, especially Christianity, loose. Just like we can eliminate the vile theocratic culture of the Middle East in one lifetime, we could also lose our society to a theocracy in a single lifetime.
Indiana could not even pass a law that could have led to some religious based discrimination, and yet you fear a return to the dark ages. At the same time, you are not willing to stop Islam, the greatest religious threat we face today. It's this kind of liberal reasoning that confounds Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 10:23am
Quick thought: When the IRA was blowing up buses and public places all over the UK and Eire in the 1980s, along with ETA (Basque Independence Terrorists) how come nobody blamed Catholicism?
They were blamed, along with the Protestants.
(Another Thought: How come Europe and the UK didn't see a need for the Patriot Act style laws we have today, even though those attacks were far more frequent and better organized and pound for pound, more deadly?)
They had their own version of the Patriot Act, and did everything like spying and killing terrorists to put an end to Catholic terrorism. I just don't understand why you so vehemently oppose doing the same to Islamic terrorism.
Don't forget the Christian terrorism against innocent Muslims in Bosnia/Croatia that we put an end too.
Indiana could not even pass a law that could have led to some religious based discrimination, and yet you fear a return to the dark ages. At the same time, you are not willing to stop Islam, the greatest religious threat we face today. It's this kind of liberal reasoning that confounds Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.
No kidding. PC Liberal dogma dominates the culture, media and academia. But they are still Chicken-Little paranoids because they don't have total control over religious groups. So the Liberal mask drops a bit and we see their Totalitarian tendencies boil forth and how they want to force total conformity using the massive power of our big government.
I think this link is relevant.
"WHY IS THE ANGRY LEFT SO ANGRY?"
"Then there’s the fact that “Progressives†convince themselves that everything they’re doing is for the greater good, which supersedes the rights of any individual. It’s a case of “the humanitarian with the guillotine“: we’re doing this for the overall good of humanity, so it’s OK to start killing people. Or to be really, really mean to them in the comments field.
There’s the fact that advocacy of big government is by its very nature a quest for power and control, for the ability to use force against others—a cause that naturally attracts the bitter and intolerant."
http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/26/why-is-the-angry-left-so-angry/
(Another Thought: How come Europe and the UK didn't see a need for the Patriot Act style laws we have today, even though those attacks were far more frequent and better organized and pound for pound, more deadly?)
For real?
FFS - the UK has an entire government agency (MI5) who's sole responsibility is to spy on their own people and get intelligence to combat DOMESTIC terrorism.
In America our politicians under the Clinton Administration purposefully built "The Wall" to prevent the FBI and CIA from sharing intelligence between the agencies which was one of the main reasons were were caught so flat-footed on 9/11.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 10:37am
Christianity is not a serious enough threat to American freedom, secularism and democracy. You can publicly criticize the Bible, burn it, flush it, and draw cartoons about Jesus, but we cannot do the same to the Koran and Mohammad in OUR OWN COUNTRY.
Which religion is the real threat to our values and beliefs?
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:51am
Atheists are the same way in how they ignore or cherry-pick the hundreds of millions killed in the last century by Communism.
Bullshit.
Tom Selleck and Charlie Chaplin are the most dangerous despots ever.
What country do you live in Dan? Name a single Region or State in America that is more religious or fundamentalist Today than 10, 20, or 50 years ago.
Why should I? That's your Straw Man argument, not my argument. I don't have to defend you Straw Man. Attacking your Straw Man does not attack my argument.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:52am
Christianity is not a serious enough threat to American freedom, secularism and democracy
Tell that to all the women trying to get abortions. Christians tried to get a law passed that required women to be raped -- yes, raped by the legal definition -- by their doctor before getting an abortion. That's a threat to freedom, secularism, and democracy, not to mention human rights.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 10:54am
C Liberal dogma dominates the culture, media and academia. But they are still Chicken-Little paranoids because they don't have total control over religious groups. So the Liberal mask drops a bit and we see their Totalitarian tendencies boil forth and how they want to force total conformity using the massive power of our big government.
I think this link is relevant.
"WHY IS THE ANGRY LEFT SO ANGRY?"
Another idiot who can't distinguish between the left and liberals. At this point, anyone who doesn't understand the difference is willfully ignorant and their opinions don't count.
HydroCabron
2015 Apr 6, 10:54am
Christianity is not a serious enough threat to American freedom, secularism and democracy.
Bullshit.
From What's the Matter with Kansas:
Not long ago, Kansas would have responded to the current situation by making the bastards pay. This would have been a political certainty, as predictable as what happens when you touch a match to a puddle of gasoline. When business screwed the farmers and the workers – when it implemented monopoly strategies invasive beyond the Populists' furthest imaginings – when it ripped off shareholders and casually tossed thousands out of work – you could be damned sure about what would follow.
Not these days. Out here the gravity of discontent pulls in only one direction: to the right, to the right, further to the right. Strip today's Kansans of their job security, and they head out to become registered Republicans. Push them off their land, and next thing you know they're protesting in front of abortion clinics. Squander their life savings on manicures for the CEO, and there's a good chance they'll join the John Birch Society. But ask them about the remedies their ancestors proposed (unions, antitrust, public ownership), and you might as well be referring to the days when knighthood was in flower.
(Frank, T. 2004 "What's the Matter with Kansas?", pp. 67-68)
There are families living on $30K a year who vote a straight Republican ticket every time, because GunsJesusAbortion. Oklahoma senatorial debates occur in a church next to a 20-foot poster of a freshly-aborted fetus.
Sure, these people shouldn't be voting Democrat, because they won't do much for them either (not joking), but Christianity has been used to securely lock down this country for the elites.
We may never rebuild a decent political system, because abortion.
Christianity is not a serious enough threat to American freedom, secularism and democracy. You can publicly criticize the Bible, burn it, flush it, and draw cartoons about Jesus, but we cannot do the same to the Koran and Mohammad in OUR OWN COUNTRY.
Which religion is the real threat to our values and beliefs?
Western Liberals are giant pussies because it is the safest thing in the world to do to criticize Christianity.
You criticize or try to leave Islam in public, there are literally millions of adherents around the world that will want you killed. Not just a few bad apples either.
"Majorities of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/
HydroCabron
2015 Apr 6, 11:00am
Western Liberals are giant pussies because it is the safest thing in the world to do to criticize Christianity.
Step in front of a bank of microphones and say "I'm not sure Jesus was the son of God" and then try to run for Senate or the presidency.
Good luck!
Why should I? That's your Straw Man argument, not my argument. I don't have to defend you Straw Man. Attacking your Straw Man does not attack my argument.
You are the one crying that Christianity (especially Christianity) is a massive threat to the United States and that: "we could also lose our society to a theocracy in a single lifetime." Those are your exact words.
This is crazy paranoia that ignores history and reality.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 11:06am
Christianity is not a serious enough threat to American freedom, secularism and democracy
Tell that to all the women trying to get abortions. Christians tried to get a law passed that required women to be raped -- yes, raped by the legal definition -- by their doctor before getting an abortion.
Really? Did the law pass? The law allows anyone can get an abortion if they want one, and they do get abortions. The law also allows anyone to burn a Koran, but no one dares to. Which religion is a real threat to us, Dan?
See this guy Dan?
He is a Islamic terrorist, but they dare not put any reference to Islam.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 11:09am
Christianity's Negative Influence on our Government
1. Climate change denial. Risks our entire species.
2. Violations of the 14th Amendment by prohibiting same sex marriages.
3. Evolution denial. Decreases the rate of medical and biotech advancement. Decreases the quality of doctors.
4. Violations of the 1st Amendment under public obscenity laws. This includes movies, television, and discussions of homosexuality that do not use any profanity.
5. Violations of 1st Amendment by carving out exceptions to laws for Christianity and Judaism only. No other religion need apply for an exception to a law.
6. Reducing the intelligence of the voter and thus allowing worse politicians to gain power and harm our nation with corrupt policies and short-sightedness.
So yes, we Americans do have to concern ourselves with the despicable religions of Christianity more than the despicable religions of Islam precisely because Christianity has far more power in our country.
And there is no reason why we should tolerate Christianity or any other religion. The concept of freedom of religion has never truly existed in our country. Only state-sponsored religions have been given freedoms, and they should not have. Why should anyone's delusional beliefs have special privilege under our law? Why should they be allowed to free of taxes when the rest of us aren't?
The founding fathers only put in "freedom of religion" because Catholics and protestants were mass killing each other in colonial times. However, they made a mistake. The correct solution was to prohibit all religion wherever it interfered with other people's rights or government.
Strategist
2015 Apr 6, 11:10am
Western Liberals are giant pussies because it is the safest thing in the world to do to criticize Christianity.
Step in front of a bank of microphones and say "I'm not sure Jesus was the son of God" and then try to run for Senate or the presidency.
Good luck!
OK, point taken. But he won't be assassinated, and he will still get a lot of votes.
Really? Did the law pass? The law allows anyone can get an abortion if they want one, and they do get abortions.
Here is yet another example at how unhinged and paranoid the American Left has become.
America has some of the most permissive abortion laws on the planet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/opinion/sunday/douthat-the-texas-abortion-experiment.html
God forbid that America's abortions laws match those of France or Germany. Hell - those Europeans are worse than the Taliban!
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 11:17am
Really? Did the law pass? The law allows anyone can get an abortion if they want one, and they do get abortions.
The bill passed by a 57-39 vote in a Republican (Christian) controlled House of Representatives. It was defeated in the Democratic (secular) controlled Senate. This proves my point.
The entire purpose of the bill requiring women to get raped before getting an abortion was to make the process so humiliating and painful that effectively no woman would dare attempt to do it. Imagine if you had to be anally raped before you could cast a vote in an election. Wouldn't that infringe on your right to vote?
Which religion is a real threat to us, Dan?
Both are, but Christianity is a far greater threat. A threat isn't determined by just how bad something is, but also by the probability of it happening. An asteroid could wipe out all life on this planet in the next decade, but the chance of that happening are astronomically low. Islam is worse than Christianity today, but Christianity actually affects our country. Islamic terrorists aren't a big threat to our national security despite the hysteria conservatives have over it. It's just that people like you still have a Stone Age brain that says the biggest threat to life is always neighboring tribes and they must be killed before they have a chance to kill our tribe. That worked in the Stone Age, but it does not work in the nuclear age.
The fact is that climate change is a far greater threat to our national security and lives than Islamic terrorists. There only significant success was something that could have easily been thwarted by requiring the cockpit doors to be locked.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 11:21am
Really? Did the law pass? The law allows anyone can get an abortion if they want one, and they do get abortions.
Here is yet another example at how unhinged and paranoid the American Left has become.
America has some of the most permissive abortion laws on the planet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/opinion/sunday/douthat-the-texas-abortion-experiment.htmlGod forbid that America's abortions laws match those of France or Germany. Hell - those Europeans are worse than the Taliban!
Wrong state, idiot. The bill that was being discussed was one from Iowa, a Jesus-land state, which is why the Republican Party has their main presidential caucus there.
But hey, when did American Christians ever learn geography anyway?
And there is no reason why we should tolerate Christianity or any other religion.
Exhibit A - showing the "tolerance" of the American Left.
Can you start to appreciate why many of us on the Right want to keep you little Lefty Totalitarians as far away from public office and control over our lives as much as possible?
You guys are so very angry, smug, and absolutely convinced of your "righteousness" and want to use the awesome power of the US Government to lord over our lives to enforce your conformity. This is not much different than the puritanical zeal found in the Soviet Union and China that allowed Communism to murder millions and million of human beings at the alter of the State.
indigenous
2015 Apr 6, 11:30am
Which religion is a real threat to us, Dan?
The religion of Climate Change, if you doubt me insult Dan's religion and see what happens.
Y
2015 Apr 6, 11:30am
Fail.
By definition women would have to give the doctor permission to get probed prior to abortion. It's the woman's choice to follow the law, or walk.
Rape is penetration without permission.
Christians tried to get a law passed that required women to be raped -- yes, raped by the legal definition -- by their doctor before getting an abortion.
Wrong state, idiot. The bill that was being discussed was one from Iowa, a Jesus-land state, which is why the Republican Party has their main presidential caucus there.
But hey, when did American Christians ever learn geography anyway?
FFS - as if that matters.
ANY State bill that tries to restrict abortion to match "civilized" standards in Europe is fought tooth and nail by American Liberals and Liberals start hitting the fainting couches fearing that the Taliban are just around the corner.
I've said it before, but once Liberals bother to get educated on the science and ethics of human development, we will look back at abortion as abhorrent as the Democrat's historical support for slavery, Jim Crow and Eugenics.
Not too late to get on the right side of history Dan. Just so sad seeing so many American Liberals still making the destruction of unborn babies the center of their political goals. Pretty fucking ghoulish if you ask me.
Dan8267
2015 Apr 6, 11:57am
And there is no reason why we should tolerate Christianity or any other religion.
Exhibit A - showing the "tolerance" of the American Left.
Why should I tolerate ignorance and stupidity? Some things should not be tolerated.
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A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins
Dear friends,
The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!
What most Muslims will say:
Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.
What knowledgeable Muslims should say:
That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.
What the Qur'an Teaches Us:
We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).
The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).
He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.
Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.
Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.
We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.
Arabic translation الترجمة العربية
See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.
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