patrick.net

correct

Biology is never concrete.

“Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male... Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY."

I find very strange the compulsion that some people have to claim other people don't exist. They DO exist. If their existence disproves a theory to which you have become emotionally committed, then get over it and change your theory.

If only it were so simple. Genotype, phenotype, developmental and behavioral all run a spectacular gamut of variations.

It's much more amazing than any simple dichotomy.

Am I the only person here who doesn't give a shit what other people's genders or gender identities are? Just build single-user bathrooms like the ones in everyone's houses and be done with it. Unless I'm having sex with you, your gender, biological or psychological, doesn't mean jack diddly shit to me.

I understand your point...
However... if you attach a dangle or a mangle and you get someone to love you and fuck it. What business is it of ours?

Just go to an exotic whorehouse and order yourself up a lactating hermaphrodite. It will all become perfectly clear.

HE ? Him ? She ? Her ?

You can just call me "excellency."

freespeechforever says

Even if one gets a surgeon and plastic surgeon to snip, fold, tuck, shape, sculpt, or attach an extremity, with dangling sacks of tissue underneath, along with hormone treatment in either case (estrogen or testosterone therapy), it never changes the gender of that person that acquired while in utero (when the specialized cells underwent mitosis based on chromosomes*).

*In this system, the sex of an individual is determined by a pair of sex chromosomes (gonosomes). Females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.

But you are so wrong as libertarians frequently are. Some of the hottest women out there are actually men. They have XY chromosomes but can't process testosterone. Since everyone starts as a female body, yes you were once a girl, then develops into a male when testosterone is produced and processed these men never physically become men, they stay women.. Usually really good looking, really well built women.

Look up Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. https://jenapincott.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/when-the-perfect-woman-is-genetically-male/

Dan8267 says

Am I the only person here who doesn't give a shit what other people's genders or gender identities are? Just build single-user bathrooms like the ones in everyone's houses and be done with it. Unless I'm having sex with you, your gender, biological or psychological, doesn't mean jack diddly shit to me.

I always liked the unisex public bathrooms all over France. While you stand pissing at the urinal women are wandering in and of the stalls and washing at the sinks. Or the outdoor urinals just attached to a building with no walls or anything.

I think OP is talking about gender disphoria, not some of the very rare other things the rest of you are bringing up.

I would also guess that OP's primary issue probably isn't with trangender adults but probably more with pc language, and transitioning and accommodations for children claiming to have gender dysphoria.

For instance, this sort of insanity...delaying the onset of puberty...or giving hormone treatment to children...

Http://www.webmd.com/children/news/20150422/children-transgender

OP is correct.

Those making arguments claiming that there is a class of people who are or can be both ignore Pdisingenuously) that even if one is born with both sets of genitalia, that this is incredibly rare, and is the result of a genetic defect whereby something in DNA goes haywire and mis-programs instructions on sex cell differentiation, which is then "downloaded" to zygote (this misfunction as a result of genetic defect also relates to inability to properly process hormones efficiently - both men and women produce both

Those talking about "hot ladyboys" (or burly , butch women etc.) completely miss the point. Just because they find men and/or women attractive who act and dress as the opposite of their birth gender (and may have undergone hormone treatments and plastic surgery) does not reverse their actual birth gender or the fact that in very rare cases, some are born with partial or nearly complete sets of both genitalia, which still does not make that individual anything other than a boy or girl with a genetic defect.

If some think people can change their gender by 'self-identification,' as a result of surgery and hormone treatment, and because they acquire more masculine or feminine traits through surgery and hormone treatments, they ignore basic facts and reality.

With your steaming morning expresso wafting under each nostril, say the words "male" and "female" very slowly...lollygagging over each vowel/consonant pairing as if time had ground to a grinding halt....
Then realize that the only difference between male and female is that the latter came out feet first...

freespeechforever says

Either Male or Female

Bones don't lie.

Looks like Call It Crazy is upset that his lady has been banging other guys in New Jersey.

#rechargeableBatteriesDumbass

Dan, what if Caitlin Jenner wanted you to plunge your manhood into her silicone-molded vag?

You extremists are just set on attenuating Obama's legacy. Shameless you are, (baby)!

bob2356 says

But you are so wrong as libertarians frequently are. Some of the hottest women out there are actually men. They have XY chromosomes but can't process testosterone.

This is so rare you've probably never personally met a legitimate case in your lifetime.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome#statistics

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome affects 2 to 5 per 100,000 people who are genetically male.

freespeechforever says

Dan, what if Caitlin Jenner wanted you to plunge your manhood into her silicone-molded vag?

No. One doesn't have to be gay in order to support marriage equality and equal rights for all.

Dan8267 says

freespeechforever says

Dan, what if Caitlin Jenner wanted you to plunge your manhood into her silicone-molded vag?

No. One doesn't have to be gay in order to support marriage equality and equal rights for all.

That's fine (and I actually agree with you*), - BUT -

This is not about either of those issues, is it?

This is simply about whether a person born as a male or female can truly become the opposite sex, regardless as to how many procedures, surgeries and hormone therapy they undergo, yes/no?

*I am not cool whatsoever with some middle age man who "transformed" using the same bathroom or locker room as my daughter or spouse. Call me whatever epithet you will, but I feel reasonable, rational minds need to draw a line SOMEWHERE.

freespeechforever says

This is simply about whether a person born as a male or female can truly become the opposite sex, regardless as to how many procedures, surgeries and hormone therapy they undergo, yes/no?

Obviously yes, but not with today's technology. The only difference between you and any male or female, or for that many any plant, animal, or mineral are the atoms in your body and how they are arranged. Change that arrangement and you change the object, even if the object is a person. There is nothing magical, mystical, or supernatural about your personhood. You are just an emergent system composed of atoms.

To truly and completely change a male to a female, three changes need to be made.
1. Remove all instances of the SRY gene. That's the gene on the Y chromosome that activates testosterone production and causes other genes to be switched on.
2. Replace male body parts with female ones. This includes shapes and bone structure.
3. Reconfigure the neurons and their connections in the brain to correlate to a female human brain. This means a lot more coated axons (white matter) and less neuron bodies (gray matter) as well as significantly different connections.

We don't have the knowledge or the technology to do any of those things yet. We could get mostly there by removing a male brain from it's body and surgically implanting it into a female body, but the brain itself wouldn't become female. Gay men aren't women. Simply "self-identifying" as a female does not mean you truly think like a female. Most thoughts aren't conscious ones and perception is not reality. A gay man might think he thinks like a straight woman, but that doesn't mean his thoughts are actually the same. To get the thoughts the same, you'd have to rearrange neurons, change the ratio of white to gay matter, and adjust the chemical mixture in the brain.

[stupid comment limit]

All of this is possible, but not with today's technology. Quite frankly, it would be much easier to do a real sex change if you just got rid of organic bodies and replaced our brains with virtual neural networks. That way you could both upload your mind to any body and you could change your brain/mind algorithmically. Sex changes would be trivial. Hell, you could invent as many sexes as you want. Although the term sex would cease to mean what it does biologically as you would not reproduce biologically.

freespeechforever says

*I am not cool whatsoever with some middle age man who "transformed" using the same bathroom or locker room as my daughter or spouse.

Are you cool with a gay middle age man using the same bathroom as your son? Are you cool with a lesbian using the same bathroom as your daughter?

What exactly are you trying to prevent? Invasions of privacy? Rape? If that's the case, then gender assignment does absolutely nothing. You daughter can be spied on or raped by another girl or woman. A heterosexual girl the same age as your daughter could snap pictures of your daughter's pussy and then post them online just out of spite. Teenage girls do shit like this to other teenage girls. If you actually are interested in protecting your daughter's sexual privacy then forget about gender assignments. Instead fight for, in the following order,

1. An end to all strip searches and body cavity searches including in jails and prisons and during arrests.
2. An end to all pat downs and rape scanners.
3. Single user bathrooms.

Stopping transgender men from using the woman's room will do absolutely nothing to protect your daughter's sexual privacy. The problem isn't sexual ambiguity. The problem is that people have to take shits in quasi-public facilities.

rando says

This is so rare you've probably never personally been anywhere near a legitimate case in your lifetime.

Show me where I said I had. Rare means they exist, contrary to the original premise. Everyone starts with a women's body. Then you develop into a man when the androgens kick in. AIS don't have a uterus, but truly have a women's body with big tits, well cut muscles, great skin. It's been rumored for years Jamie Lee Curtis is AIS.

There's also Klinefelter syndrome affecting 2/1000 males, where they get XXY chromosomes instead of XY. They have small genitals, tend to be taller and weaker with much less body hair, may develop breasts, and are infertile. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

And then there's Jacob's Syndrome, affecting 1/1000 males where the child has XYY, resulting in enhanced masculinity and aggression. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome

There are also rare ones like Turner's Syndrome where a woman is missing an X or part of it.

So yah biology can get weird. However you are whatever your biology makes you. All the delusion and pretense in the world won't change that.
Well, not yet. Perhaps a retroviral treatment will be developed one day to change ones genetic code to something else entirely. Maybe you could become a zebra or a monkey!

I do think that with the guys who are 40-50 years old and 'suddenly discovering' that they are female is mostly due to some catastrophic collapse in T or increase in Estrogen.

You don't get to 40-50 years and then suddenly for the first time think you are really a woman. Note that the reverse, F2M, almost never happens at this age.

Problem is the same with Schizos - they "FEEL" it, it's part of their brain/biochemistry, so they don't want to hear about therapy. The aliens are scanning my brain and psychiatrists are alien agents truth is I've always been a woman! - when it's really biochemistry out of whack.

bob2356 says

Everyone starts with a women's body.

A common misconception and oversimplification. The developing embryo isn't female by default. Formation of a female body requires hormones both before birth and during puberty. Just because an embryo hasn't yet activated testosterone production doesn't make it female. Proper development of female characteristics like a uterus requires various genes to be activated and various chemicals to be produced. A fertilized egg has or does not have the SRY gene, but it isn't male or female yet. It's just an egg.

Quigley says

There's also Klinefelter syndrome affecting 2/1000 males, where they get XXY chromosomes instead of XY. They have small genitals, tend to be... weaker

Sounds like you diagnosed CIC.

junkmail says

However... if you attach a dangle or a mangle and you get someone to love you and fuck it. What business is it of ours?

None! I love my folks but I don't want to watch them get nasty.

The biggest problem over the last 20 years, is the Left's constant trying to force Gay themed movies and shove every Gay agenda they can down eveyone's throats.
Thank God for Milo, he's proof that people aren't Homophobes as much as they are repulsed by vivid audacity of the oversharing while playing the victim when people push back.

There's a gay couple in my extended family, I have no problem with them at all. They are not SJW about it, and just appreaciate that we're not judging them even if we aren't asking...
"So! How's you're love life?"
They respect that we don't give a shit.

T L Lipsovich says

I do think that with the guys who are 40-50 years old and 'suddenly discovering' that they are female is mostly due to some catastrophic collapse in T or increase in Estrogen.

Interesting hypothesis, but I think they're not "suddenly discovering" gender dysphoria, rather they are facing a "now or never" situation. Caitlin (FKA Bruce) Jenner's first wife remembered talking about it decades before.

For anyone who wants to understand the kids going through this, I recommend the Frontline documentary:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/growing-up-trans/

rando says

This is so rare you've probably never personally been anywhere near a legitimate case in your lifetime.

When you add up all the rare causes that produce nonbinary sex, you get to around 1% of the population.

freespeechforever says

using the same bathroom or locker room as my daughter or spouse.

I think you mean, "at the same time." Probably you have all used the same bathroom at home, and maybe on airplanes, but not at the same time. The problem is American public architecture. Many American buildings appear to be a war on privacy, where you can never have a moment away from the crowd. I've always wondered what insecurity motivates that, maybe public architects desperately afraid of ever being alone. The predictable result is public awkwardness. Single occupancy bathrooms, like airplanes and many restaurants use, solve the problem entirely.

Dan8267 says

A common misconception and oversimplification.

Big oversimplification that saves a lot of typing. Development of a fetus is a huge cascade of genes turning on, doing their thing, activating the next gene, then turning off. You start with female and male organs. The default is female organs to fully develop in the absence of testosterone or the inability of receptors to bind to it. In AIS the gonads will not develop into ovaries and the uterus will not develop but female genitalia will. Here is a more technical explanation of the process. http://www.baby2see.com/gender/internal_genitals.html

Does that make you feel better?