patrick.net

Dan8267 says

Human beings are committing massive resource depletion, pollution, and extinction. In the past 40 years, half of all wildlife has been destroyed. Clean water reserves are being permanently depleted. A third of the world doesn't even have adequate clean drinking water supplies. How have you factored this into your math?

Maybe population should shrink but this is irrelevant here as it doesn't change the facts we are discussing:
- there should be children to perpetuate society
- on average society members are net-producers
- someone needs to support in time and resources children until they become adults. Which is the entire discussion here.

Dan8267 says

that does not mean

1. That the median baby will become a productive adult with a net-positive flow back to society.

2. That the average baby born to poor women will become a net-productive adult. In fact, empirical evidence shows that the most productive people in our society are those not born into poverty. Poverty generates more poverty.

Since I never said anything related to these statements, this cannot be an answer to my post. Unless you're trying some straw man.

Dan8267 says

So your revised statement is also completely wrong.

How so?

Dan8267 says

the average baby will become a productive adult with a net-positive flow back to society. This may be true -- you certainly have not proven that,

How could it be otherwise? Martians are providing for them?

NuttBoxer says

If you agree to marry someone, your vows should mean something.

I agree. Marriage is a promise, a contract. Part of the contract is that both parties have responsibility to raise any legitimate children produced by that marriage.

The only question is why women should have greater rights than men outside of marriage. I say they should not. If a woman chooses to have a baby outside of marriage against the wishes of the man, or without even asking him, then being the woman's choice, it should be the woman's problem.

The child custody laws need to be changed. If a child is born out of wedlock, the custody and child support payment should not almost always go to the woman. If the man and woman had equal status as potential parents, and the courts could decide custody based only on financial capability and personal parenting capability, and gender could not be a factor in the custody decision, then it wouldn't be a slamdunk for women to get custody of the child and child support. If this was the case women would think twice when they were pregnant with with a child with someone who they weren't going to end up married to. If there was a high probability that they would end up paying child support and not having custody, there would be a lot less woman choosing to have children out of wedlock. Many men would gladly except parental responsibility if they didn't end up with minimal custody and paying part of their earnings into someone else's household, and thus damaging their own ability to have a family and support their own household.

Heraclitusstudent says

Maybe population should shrink but this is irrelevant here as it doesn't change the facts we are discussing:

I did not suggest such a thing. I refuted a conclusion you proposed that is contradicted by the facts.

But to go over the points you are now making...

- there should be children to perpetuate society

No one has ever suggested that there should be zero children born per generation. This is a false dichotomy and a straw man argument. No one wold ever argue that children should not exist and our species should go extinct.

However, population control is important and if we want to maximize happiness, sustainability, health, and prosperity as well as avoiding war, famine, abject poverty, and ecological collapse, we should not encourage reproduction. Instead we should limit it and provide economic incentives to reduce it.

[stupid comment limit. How's that working out again, Patrick?]

Agree what fraser wrote above

rando says

BTW, if a man consents to responsibility for the baby, he should be held to it. I'm not suggesting that men be able to give up responsibility after accepting it.

The insertion of his penis is his consent to the possibility of a baby. Sure, he can try to do things to minimize the chances - condom, etc., but that's his line. Once it's crossed, he has to deal with the consequences. It's not fair to put it on the woman to either abort or raise her child in poverty. I understand your point, but I don't think it's the way to go.
In reality, your proposal would be framed as men forcing women to decide between abortion and starving kids, so it's a non-starter politically. It's more realistic to dream of a world of abstinence until marriage than this proposal ever becoming a reality.

ch_tah2 says

so it's a non-starter politically

I'd say morally too.

Dan8267 says

No one has ever suggested that there should be zero children born per generation. This is a false dichotomy and a straw man argument. No one wold ever argue that children should not exist and our species should go extinct.

I didn't suggest that you suggested there should be zero children. All I said is "there should be children" and given that fact "someone needs to support in time and resources children until they become adults.".
I didn't mean for this to be controversial and these should be simple facts on which we all agree.
But this is sufficient to show to that your considerations on the environment are irrelevant when considering how we finance this support.

Dan8267 says

we should not encourage reproduction

I never said we should encourage reproduction. You keep putting words in my mouth.
All I talked about is how we support children. Regardless of everything else, having children requires huge investments in time and resources, and generally means huge stress, sleep deprivation, guarantied emergencies, crises, fits, screaming etc... People who have children typically rank lower in happiness surveys. Getting some support just means parents lose a bit less than they do anyway, as well as a better path forward for the kid. Encouragement is certainly not the point.

fraser says

Many men would gladly except parental responsibility if they didn't end up with minimal custody and paying part of their earnings into someone else's household, and thus damaging their own ability to have a family and support their own household.

I doubt more than a fraction of men would take the challenge of parenthood over just paying and not having to deal with the brats.
I don't know if you noticed but having children in your custody absolutely damages you ability to have a family and support your own household.
Nothing cools a first date faster than "could you please change the diaper of that one while I get some drinks?"

Heraclit says:

---"

I doubt more than a fraction of men would take the challenge of parenthood over just paying and not having to deal with the brats.
I don't know if you noticed but having children in your custody absolutely damages you ability to have a family and support your own household.
Nothing cools a first date faster than "could you please change the diaper of that one while I get some drinks?"
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-
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I speak from experience. I have been a single father of my 12-year-old daughter since she was two, joint custody 50%. Nothing has given me more joy and pride then the time I've spent with her and the impact I have been able to have on her life. No one else can ever be her real father and love her the way I do. I gladly put her needs and happiness before my own, I couldn't think of any other way. Yes, this situation has been a burden on me personally, my relationships and finances, but I feel so lucky that I have been able to be a father to her, and it is well worth any sacrifice.

Heraclitusstudent says

All I said is "there should be children"

Heraclitusstudent says

I never said we should encourage reproduction. You keep putting words in my mouth.

Look, if you cannot clearly communicate what you mean, that's on you. The statement "there should be children" is irrelevant to this and every conversation that has ever existed as no one has ever proposed that no more children should ever be born. So why even bring it up? I've done more than fair diligence in trying to correctly interpret your posts. If that's not good enough, you need to be clearer and more specific in the positions you are advocating, and that does mean you have less room to bullshit or change what "you meant to say" after the fact.

In any case, my position is clear.

1. Men should not be forced into fatherhood.
2. Our social programs should not encourage reproduction, especially among the poor.
3. Discouraging reproduction is one effective means of combating inter-generational poverty.

I can support and defend all of these points easily.

Dan8267 says

if you cannot clearly communicate what you mean, that's on you.

Ok, but if you can't read, that's on you.

Dan8267 says

So why even bring it up?

Because there is a clear sequence: "must be children", " must be support" , "support mechanism not dependent on environment", "therefore bringing environment preservation in discussion is irrelevant."
I think it's clear enough for people who take the time to read and aren't too dense.

Agree with the premise of the argument.
And, there are feminists out there who agree that an uncommitted male should not be made into a slave for an accidental pregnancy. As marriage rates decline, however, I think we will see many more of these situations where the man is "caught" (deliberately). Woe to him. Frankly, you can have a one night stand and a couple of years later find out you owe tens of thousands of dollars - and then you end up supporting the baby mama as well. She has the power to decide the man's fate. Obviously, condoms help but they are not nearly as fool-proof as the pill and other contraceptives available only to females. Vasectomy is the only other viable male choice, and that can be a fairly invasive surgery and may or may not be reversible.

http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/sex/should-men-be-forced-to-pay-for-children-they-didnt-want/

Just remember: women want babies, men want sex. Sex with a mid-thirties woman is EXTREMELY dangerous if she does not already have children.

Heraclitusstudent says

Ok, but if you can't read, that's on you.

My interpretation is more than reasonable. It's the best you can expect from any intelligent, literate person trying sincerely to understand what you are saying.

Heraclitusstudent says

Because there is a clear sequence: "must be children", " must be support" , "support mechanism not dependent on environment", "therefore bringing environment preservation in discussion is irrelevant."

Your reasoning is very flawed.
1. The fact that at least some people must reproduce in order for our species to continue does not mean that every person has to reproduce to avoid human extinction. It certainly does not mean that the continuation of our species requires people financially or emotionally unprepared to raise children must have children they are incapable of taking care of.

2. The fact that some reproduction is necessary for our species to continue does not mean that the state or unwilling fathers must be forced to bear the financial costs of unwanted children. You could make a moral case that either or both of those two agents ought to, or a practical case that either should, but not the case that they must in order for our species or society to continue. Furthermore, there are both moral and practical reasons why neither agent should or ought to bear that financial responsibility. For example, moral hazard.

[stupid comment limit]

[continue]

3. Environmental management is absolutely relevant to this discussion. It is immoral for one generation to deplete the natural resources and degrade the environment thus impoverishing all future generations. Half of all wildlife has been killed off in the past 40 years. Countless species are now lost forever. Repairing the damage done over the past four decades alone will take literally hundreds of thousands of years. That's longer than the human race has been around. How many generations have we already impoverished at current population levels. Of course this is relevant to both moral and practical considerations of reproduction.

krc says

Sex with a mid-thirties woman is EXTREMELY dangerous if she does not already have children.

I don't understand. Are you saying that any man would want to have sex with a woman over 30? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Funny Dan8276. Men will f&*k mud. No matter the age. :)

I guess I was implying, perhaps wrongly, that men are driven more by sex and women by the desire to have children. Childless women in their mid thirties are reaching the end of their potential child bearing period, and so their motivation is to bring that fetus to term no matter whether theirs was a one night stand or a long term arrangement. The female really will not make a judgement or decision that takes into account the "partner" - and legally they have that right. Men have no such corresponding right - we can only suggest or let them know we don't want the child, but that is legally meaningless and irrelevant. Yet, the man will likely provide the vast amount of money required to raise that child. (To be fair, though, if the woman does happen to have a higher income, that may actually be reversed. Note, however, man almost never gets custody in these out of wedlock births, and so there is always some payment transfer to the woman regardless of income disparity).

krc says

Funny Dan8276. Men will f&*k mud. No matter the age. :)

No. Not all men. Some of us are damn picky. Perhaps too picky, but certainly every guy has standards. The question is how low do they go.

krc says

I guess I was implying, perhaps wrongly, that men are driven more by sex and women by the desire to have children.

No, this is correct with one caveat. Men are interested in sex as a way of being interested in reproduction. However, men aren't necessarily interested in committing time and resources to raising the kid. In fact devoting such resources greatly diminishes sexual opportunities for men and thus opportunities to have additional children with additional women. Hence, if men can fuck a lot of women, they are compelled by evolutionary pressures to do so. It makes no sense for a man who is sexually attractive to be monogamous. It does for a woman because she can't bear more children by having more sexual partners. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

krc says

Childless women in their mid thirties are reaching the end of their potential child bearing period, and so their motivation is to bring that fetus to term no matter whether theirs was a one night stand or a long term arrangement. T

Yes, women reaching their reproductive end become desperate to reproduce if they haven't already. It's called the biological clock. And yes, women who cannot secure a long-term devoted mate won't give up selfish reproduction. They will selfishly bring a child into the world even if they cannot afford to. However, society should not encourage this with subsidies or male slavery. In fact, we should prohibit or at least discourage it.

ch_tah2 says

The insertion of his penis is his consent to the possibility of a baby.

That's exactly like saying a woman who dresses provocatively is consenting to sex. They are both fucking stupid statements and for the exact same reason.

Consent is consent. Nothing else is consent.

NuttBoxer says

Men's rights are important, as are all humans rights. But I think as a man or woman we suck it up and sacrifice some of our rights because children are more vulnerable, weaker, and we have a duty to raise our children ourselves.

Do you believe abortion should be legal?

Dan8267 says

ch_tah2 says

The insertion of his penis is his consent to the possibility of a baby.

That's exactly like saying a woman who dresses provocatively is consenting to sex. They are both fucking stupid statements and for the exact same reason.

Consent is consent. Nothing else is consent.

I agree. You can't have abortion be legal for women, but not allow men the same right to back out of the responsibility. Why do women get that choice and not men? If inserting my penis is consent to having a baby with the woman I'm nailing, then the woman has no right to ever have an abortion.

Here are very valid counter arguments to "meninism", if any of you can bring yourself to read it. Written by a man.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/03/lets-talk-about-mens-rights/

Some points from the article:
"1 ) Women only make up 20% of elected officials and only 5% of CEOs of fortune 500 companies (an historic high!). And women still only make 77 cents for every dollar earned by their male counterparts – and that’s only for white people!...

2) For years, many men have argued that women are more naturally nurturing than men. They have suggested that women are more suited for the home, whereas men belong in the workplace.

...such thinking has started to alter. Nonetheless, such prejudice leaves a legacy. Is it surprising that after generations of men confining women to the home and relegating children to their mothers that such social presumptions endure?...

... And when in the workplace, they still earn less than men. At the same time, women often remain more responsible for childcare....

3) feminism rejects the notion that gender should be prescriptive. Women can be feminine or masculine, just like men can be feminine or masculine...So, it’s okay for men to be masculine. But they shouldn’t have to be, just as women shouldn’t have to conform to a single identity to be “true women.”...

...That’s toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity narrowly (and dangerously) defines “real men” as strong, violent, emotionless, sexually aggressive, and “wolf-like.” It suggests that there is only a finite range of social, political, and sexual attitudes that men can hold.

....As a man, I don’t need meninism or the men’s rights movement. Because feminism is about the equality and celebration of all expressions of gender....Empowering women does not disempower men. As a man, I am not less equal now that women are more equal...."

Humility is the best trait a man can express. That doesn't mean weakness, but strength to be guided towards constructive purpose. Real women who aren't evil bitches will respond to this every time. Who cares what the evil bitches want? You don't want to be under their thumb under any circumstances!

Indiana Jones says

Toxic masculinity narrowly (and dangerously) defines “real men” as strong, violent, emotionless, sexually aggressive, and “wolf-like.”

All characteristics feminists think women should have and should be able to express.

Indiana Jones says

Because feminism is about the equality and celebration of all expressions of gender...

Indiana Jones says

many men have argued that women are more naturally nurturing than men. They have suggested that women are more suited for the home, whereas men belong in the workplace.

...such thinking has started to alter. Nonetheless, such prejudice leaves a legacy.

Claiming that women on average are not more nurturing is a lie. They should absolutely on average do more child care than men.

If men are as nurturing as women, let's force feminist moms to hire men for nannies. Let's see how they feel about it.

Thought of a great name for a law requiring a man to consent to paternity:

"Affirmative consent"

Added to original post above.

rando says

Thought of a great name for a law requiring a man to consent to paternity:

"Affirmative consent"

How about "Yes means yes"?

How about "Cum Now, Consent Later"?

Ironman says

Heraclitusstudent says

Nothing cools a first date faster than "could you please change the diaper of that one while I get some drinks?"

That also holds true for teenage girls who think it will be "cool" to have a kid, only to find out later, single guys avoid you like the plague.

I heard that the teenage pregnancy rates have been dropping for a long time but dropped off more drastically after the single moms reality tv show

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/mtv-prevents-teen-pregnancy-by-shaming-single-moms

MMR says

single moms reality tv show

Perhaps reality TV is not just a waste of time. If girls see what a poor choice single moms have made, they will be less inclined to make the same choice.

rando says

MMR says

single moms reality tv show

Perhaps reality TV is not just a waste of time. If girls see what a poor choice single moms have made, they will be less inclined to make the same choice.

Misguided article suggests that Perhaps reality TV is not just a waste of time. If girls see what a poor choice single moms have made, they will be less inclined to make the same choice.hike show may be effective, that shaming is not a good strategy

Patrick says

A man should have the choice to refuse to pay all child support if he did not explicitly ask for the woman to have the child. Let's call it the affirmative consent law, requiring men to give affirmative consent to paternity. ;-)

This would achieve equality with a woman's "her body her choice" right to ignore the man's request for an abortion or to give the child up for adoption. Rights which only women have.

If she has the right to refuse responsibility for the baby, he should also have the right to refuse responsibility for the baby.

Discuss.

#politics

Alright, I'll finally chime in. Men have ability to be responsible. I was a single adult from age 18 to age 40. I made reasonable money from age 27 to age 40 purposely eschewed relationships during that time. I had sex without a condom exactly twice during that time, both with women I already knew before any relations took place, both were older(in their 40's), both I had 100% knowledge they were on birth control and std free. Every other time I used a condom.

And wah lah...I have no kids and no std's...ever.

The guys who have kids by "accident" are generally lower intelligence and say stupid stuff like "yeah, I know, but do you know how good it feels without a condom?"

While men should not be held to account for kids that aren't theirs, we also shouldn't be creating laws to help imbeciles deal with a lack of common sense.

Fucking White Male says

While men should not be held to account for kids that aren't theirs, we also shouldn't be creating laws to help imbeciles deal with a lack of common sense.

Yet we created abortion rights to help female imbeciles deal with a lack of common sense. A new right only for them.

Just asking for equal rights for men.

Dan8267 says

The fact that at least some people must reproduce in order for our species to continue does not mean that every person has to reproduce to avoid human extinction

Reproduction just gets dominated by often dumber people who don't rationalize against population growth; those who do (rationalize/make excuses in favor of childlessness) get dominated by those who don't, like in Europe, UK and France. The disenfranchised natives at sub fertility replacement are getting mad and voted for brexit because writing on wall(losing influence/voice in native country). Frexit might be next

Ironman says

chance that's related to the growth in social media, where there is less actually physical interaction and more interaction via text, twitter, facebook, Instagram, etc?

I'd say that has something to do with it although, people do use sites like tinder and online dating to hook up with people, but not sure that those particular sites are used in large numbers by high schoolers

rando says

Fucking White Male says

While men should not be held to account for kids that aren't theirs, we also shouldn't be creating laws to help imbeciles deal with a lack of common sense.

Yet we created abortion rights to help female imbeciles deal with a lack of common sense. A new right only for them.

Just asking for equal rights for men.

Well abortion isn't going anywhere. Really stupid people try to convince other really stupid people that the repeal of roe vs wade will end abortions, but abortion will still be legal in 75% of the states.

Giving men a nebulous right doesn't particularly help the situation. A better solution is men simply reaching out to other men and encouraging self responsibility. I have held a belief for a very long time that many of the issues men have in our society is due to lack of adult male friendships.

Fucking White Male says

"yeah, I know, but do you know how good it feels without a condom?

To be fair, that statement is the truth for most, men and women. Happens often that the woman wants to go without as well for better experience. It's also a good reason for a committed relationship. It has often been claimed that the reason there is only a pill for women is that men would never take birth-control if it was available to them so pharma does not invest into it. That is as usual not true as most arguments used by feminists. Truth is that is is much much harder to come even close to a reliable birth control pill (oral route) for men, as it only takes on intact sperm to make it past the goalpost to fertilize the egg. If and when it reaches the market, with negligible side-effects (the tested injections that reduce sperm count may leave the man infertile for a prolonged time and your gf would not want that), I am pretty sure many men will take it.