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2nd Amendment Discussion


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2018 Feb 17, 11:51am   259,821 views  1,325 comments

by CajunSteve   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

With all the talk about the school shootings, let's take a look at what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Couple things to note in there:

1. The specific mention of a militia being the reason for the need to bear arms.
2. The 2nd Amendment never mentions the word gun at all.

So, what exactly is the definition of "arms"?

In 1755 Dr. Johnson’s Dictionary of the English Language was first published. It defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence.”

Weapons of offence would seem to include pretty much anything and everything, from knives to nuclear weapons. The US has already seen fit to ban some weapons of offence so the 2nd Amendment clearly has not been interpreted strictly as meaning that the US cannot ban all "arms". Therefore, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

So it then becomes a question of which weapons should be banned, which should be strictly regulated, and which should be lightly regulated or not at all. Like anything else, we should weigh an individual's right with society's right. When looked at in that manner, it becomes very difficult to justify why fully automatic or semi automatic rifles should be allowed. What purpose do they serve an individual? And why would that purpose outweigh the extreme damage those weapons have cased society??

Patrick thinks the Chamber of Commerce is the worst organization, and he may be correct, but the NRA is not far behind.



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244   ThatGuy   2018 Feb 26, 9:23pm  

I don't agree with Trump on that one, anon.

Next step down that path is a psycho teacher who goes all Anakin on his students
245   anonymous   2018 Feb 26, 10:04pm  

ThatGuy says
People start to realize maybe this really isn't the battle they should be fighting


Sadly, that realization hasn't made it to the Liberals here.
246   anonymous   2018 Feb 27, 7:22am  

ThatGuy says
These are the top 5 killers in our country, 61.6% of deaths, and there is no outrage, no movement. 1.6M dead in 2015. Our reaction is madness.


huh? Have you not heard of the American Heart Association? Here's a website for your to peruse:

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/

And American Cancer Society? Other websites for you:

https://www.cancer.org/?_ga=2.223155035.1372620195.1519736206-2092924775.1519736206
https://www.cancer.gov/research

Pretty sure there is outrage at heart disease and cancer, and a heck of a lot of money being spent already combating these diseases.

So, again, I'll ask--is the US not capable of pursuing multiple solutions at the same time? Why must it be one or the other?
247   anonymous   2018 Feb 27, 8:38am  

anon_8f378 says
Pretty sure there is outrage at heart disease and cancer, and a heck of a lot of money being spent already combating these diseases.


Really?

Can you point to all the news articles from Schumer, Pelosi, Feinstein, Waters, Obama, et al, railing on saving the population from those killers?

Also, please link all the CNN, MSNBC, WaPo and NYT articles where they're showing such concern for these 1.6M dead people each year. There should be TONS of them, right?

We'll be waiting.

anon_8f378 says
So, again, I'll ask--is the US not capable of pursuing multiple solutions at the same time?


We'll see after you post all those links. There's no shortage of gun ban article from that same group. Let's see if there is an equal amount dedicated to heart disease and cancer.
248   anonymous   2018 Feb 27, 11:21am  

anon_cf6c6 says
Can you point to all the news articles from Schumer, Pelosi, Feinstein, Waters, Obama, et al, railing on saving the population from those killers?


Sure:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/02/01/obama-proposes-1-billion-cancer-research/79642380/
https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20160113/president-obama-cancer-research#1

https://news.heart.org/president-obama-declares-february-as-american-heart-month/
https://geneva.usmission.gov/2012/02/03/heart-disease-is-world-killer-obama-urges-heart-health/

That took about 3 seconds and two google searches.

anon_cf6c6 says
We'll see after you post all those links


Great--so you think we can do multiple things at once now?
249   anonymous   2018 Feb 28, 6:39am  

And, of course, it's now crickets from the Trump crowd.
250   MrMagic   2018 Feb 28, 8:34am  

anon_8f378 says
And, of course, it's now crickets from the Trump crowd.


251   anonymous   2018 Feb 28, 8:42am  

Pretty sure cops must go through extensive background checks and get training.
252   Goran_K   2018 Feb 28, 8:48am  

anon_8f378 says
get training.


Once a year qualification at the pistol range? That's not really training. I've shot at the same range our local sheriffs "train" at, and they are no better than your average John Smith who owns a Glock 19.
253   anonymous   2018 Feb 28, 9:11am  

Goran_K says
anon_8f378 says
get training.


Once a year qualification at the pistol range? That's not really training. I've shot at the same range our local sheriffs "train" at, and they are no better than your average John Smith who owns a Glock 19.


Thanks for making that point. Most people aren't great shots under the best of circumstances and really terrible under stress. Look at all the cop shootings where they empty a bunch of 17 round glocks and get a couple hits maybe. I'm trying to imigine a school shooting with lots of teachers who aren't very good shots spraying around bullets in rooms full o kids. Probably shooting at other teachers because they saw someone with a gun and just blasted away. Then the swat team arrives and starts shooting any people, including teachers, they see with guns. Not a pretty vision.
254   Goran_K   2018 Feb 28, 9:16am  

anon_23b8e says
Thanks for making that point. Most people aren't great shots under the best of circumstances and really terrible under stress. Look at all the cop shootings where they empty a bunch of 17 round glocks and get a couple hits maybe. I'm trying to imigine a school shooting with lots of teachers who aren't very good shots spraying around bullets in rooms full o kids. Probably shooting at other teachers because they saw someone with a gun and just blasted away. Then the swat team arrives and starts shooting any people, including teachers, they see with guns. Not a pretty vision.


North Korea barely has working nukes (if any at all). Yet no country is looking forward to invading them despite their over-the-top militaristic threats in the region.

Teacher's don't have to be "great shots", they just need to be a deterrent. If they can fire in the direction of the shooter, even if they don't score hits, they have the effect of pinning down the shooter who more than likely isn't going to run face first into return fire.

Considering most police are 6-8 minutes away under the best circumstances, and mass shootings only last around half that time, what armed teachers do is delay and deter the shooter from advancing even if they aren't scoring head shots until help arrives. Now the psychopath has to face not only an armed teacher but also a SWAT team. Far better chance of children surviving that scenario.

Israel implemented the armed teacher solution back in the 70s. How many mass shootings has Israel had at its schools in the past 2 decades?




What I don't understand is the whole "school gun free zones", that's literally taking chickens and letting the foxes get free reign. Stupidity. No lefty liberal can say that "gun free zones" have any effect on safety. It's a liberal fantasy.
255   anonymous   2018 Feb 28, 9:28am  

Goran_K says
Teacher's don't have to be "great shots", they just need to be a deterrent. If they can fire in the direction of the shooter, even if they don't score hits, they have the effect of pinning down the shooter who more than likely isn't going to run face first into return fire.


Most of them commit suicide. Death isn't a deterrent to them.
256   Goran_K   2018 Feb 28, 9:29am  

anon_8f378 says
Most of them commit suicide. Death isn't a deterrent to them.


Good. Then it makes the kill shot much, much easier.
258   MrMagic   2018 Feb 28, 6:42pm  

anon_8f378 says
Pretty sure cops must go through extensive background checks and get training.


How does that change the inanimate object, the gun? Doesn't a cop have to pull the trigger the same way a deranged killer has to pull the trigger.

So, what's the difference, why isn't the gun blamed during a cop shooting, but it is blamed during a deranged shooter situation?

Please clarify that.
259   MrMagic   2018 Feb 28, 6:42pm  

anon_8f378 says
Death isn't a deterrent to them.


But in the Liberal mindset, passing NEW gun laws would be?

Can't make this shit up.
260   MrMagic   2018 Feb 28, 6:42pm  

anon_23b8e says
I'm trying to imigine a school shooting with lots of teachers who aren't very good shots spraying around bullets in rooms full o kids. Probably shooting at other teachers because they saw someone with a gun and just blasted away.


Does it get any more delusional than that, gun haters have zero knowledge, education and logic on training, but instead, make ridiculous statements like this. CNN is definitely doing a great job keeping their viewers ignorant.
261   anonymous   2018 Feb 28, 7:57pm  

Dicks Sporting goods and Walmart make sensible moves on their own.

Goran_K says
Israel implemented the armed teacher solution back in the 70s. How many mass shootings has Israel had at its schools in the past 2 decades?


Oh, I'd be for most of Israel's gun controls in the US. We are a long long way from that level of regulation though. It isn't because their teachers are armed that the kids are safe. It's because the majority of the rest of the population is disarmed. Said differently, the right capable people are the only ones allowed to own and carry.
262   bob2356   2018 Feb 28, 8:36pm  

Sniper says
anon_23b8e says
I'm trying to imigine a school shooting with lots of teachers who aren't very good shots spraying around bullets in rooms full o kids. Probably shooting at other teachers because they saw someone with a gun and just blasted away.


Does it get any more delusional than that, gun haters have zero knowledge, education and logic on training, but instead, make ridiculous statements like this. CNN is definitely doing a great job keeping their viewers ignorant.


I owned guns for many years and am a very good shot and don't watch CNN. Try again.

Why don't you give your fairy tale version of how it will go down. While you are at it let us know about all the times you've been in a live shooting and how you whipped your big gun and blew the bad guy away with a single shot. ROFLOL.
263   bob2356   2018 Feb 28, 8:45pm  

Goran_K says
Teacher's don't have to be "great shots", they just need to be a deterrent. If they can fire in the direction of the shooter, even if they don't score hits, they have the effect of pinning down the shooter who more than likely isn't going to run face first into return fire.


Does that assume there is zero chance of any kids being behind the shooter? The teacher will make this cool as a cucumber assessment while being shot at? The SWAT team will be briefed on who is the shooter and who are the teachers? Even with people as high trained as Seal team 6 or delta force, as in training every single day, shootings turn into cluster fucks sometimes. SWAT teams fuck up by the numbers on a regular basis. But teachers are going to do better? ROFLOL.

Lots of Walter Mitties living on patent these days.
264   CBOEtrader   2018 Mar 1, 5:15am  

bob2356 says
But teachers are going to do better?


Is it better to have a gun in a gunfight or no gun in a gunfight?
265   bob2356   2018 Mar 1, 7:00am  

CBOEtrader says
bob2356 says
But teachers are going to do better?


Is it better to have a gun in a gunfight or no gun in a gunfight?


Depends on if you are a bystander who catches a bullet doesn't it?

Why isn't anyone explaining how the swat team will tell the shooter from the teachers in the middle of total chaos? Just a small tiny little detail that is being skipped over by all the rambo wanna be's including our 5 time drafter dodger president who is now going to take on a shooter with an ar-15 bare handed. In real life they would be hiding behind something crying with their pants full of crap and piss Talk is cheap.
266   FortWayne   2018 Mar 1, 8:28am  

bob2356 says
CBOEtrader says
bob2356 says
But teachers are going to do better?


Is it better to have a gun in a gunfight or no gun in a gunfight?


Depends on if you are a bystander who catches a bullet doesn't it?

Why isn't anyone explaining how the swat team will tell the shooter from the teachers in the middle of total chaos? Just a small tiny little detail that is being skipped over by all the rambo wanna be's including our 5 time drafter dodger president who is now going to take on a shooter with an ar-15 bare handed. In real life they would be hiding behind something crying with their pants full of crap and piss Talk is cheap.


by the time swat arrives, everyone is dead already who the shooter planned to kill. somehow liberals never realize, cops only show up after you are fucking dead, not before. that asshole in Florida, even waited outside while kids were getting shot up because he showed up a little too early for his personal comfort. If you want to live, you should have your own gun to defend yourself.
267   MrMagic   2018 Mar 1, 10:00am  

bob2356 says
CBOEtrader says
bob2356 says
But teachers are going to do better?


Is it better to have a gun in a gunfight or no gun in a gunfight?


Depends on if you are a bystander who catches a bullet doesn't it?


So, it sounds like your solution is just let the kids be slaughtered while waiting for the cops to arrive versus give them a fighting chance by having trained and armed teachers?

Is that correct?

bob2356 says
Why isn't anyone explaining how the swat team will tell the shooter from the teachers in the middle of total chaos?


It's pretty easy, the shooter will be the young male with a AR15 and all types of mags and hardware hanging off his body.
268   Goran_K   2018 Mar 1, 10:12am  

bob2356 says
Why isn't anyone explaining how the swat team will tell the shooter from the teachers in the middle of total chaos?


This is a myth.

Gun fights are not "chaotic" to the point where everyone is running around directionless, and no one knows what's going on and where the shooting is originating from.

If you watch video of the Columbine, or the Charlie Hedbo shooting, etc, people clear our VERY QUICKLY as soon as the shooting starts which leaves the shooter pretty much in the clear, making them easily identifiable, especially if they are dressed in "black tactical gear" like the Newtown or Florida shooter.
271   MrMagic   2018 Mar 3, 10:01pm  

Fla. Senate rejects assault weapons ban.

The bill to ban assault weapons, including the AR-15 used in the school shooting, failed by a 20-to-17 vote.

The body then moved to other legislation on guns. A measure to allow parents to opt students out of a classroom where a teacher is armed failed.

State Sen. Linda Stewart, a Democrat who introduced the amendment to ban assault weapons, said on the Senate floor that ammunition from assault weapons can blow up inside the victim’s body and that there is no reason for anyone to have them.

(Liberal Ignorance at it's best, what's an "assault weapon"? Ammunition "blows up"? When will these legislators actually learn correct terminology and facts?)

State Sen. Kelli Stargel (R) argued that banning assault weapons could be a slippery slope. Would fertilizer, used in the 1995 bombing of an Oklahoma City federal building, be banned? Or pressure cookers, used in the 2013 Boston Marathon bombings?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fla-senate-rejects-assault-weapons-ban-holds-moment-of-silence-for-shooting-victims/2018/03/03/698a68cc-1f23-11e8-9de1-147dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.eaf3249b522e
272   MrMagic   2018 Mar 3, 10:02pm  

Confusion in the Florida Senate as AR-15 ban fails to pass.

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- It appeared Florida's upper chamber had approved a ban on AR-15-style rifles Saturday, but a later roll call vote clarified that it did not have the votes to pass. After it appeared the two-year moratorium on the sale, delivery and transfer of AR-15-style rifles had passed by a voice vote, minutes later, that motion was reconsidered, and ultimately reversed by a roll call vote, with 17 votes in favor of the amendment and 21 against it.

"Every constitutional right that we hold dear has a limitation," said Democratic Sen. Gary Farmer. "These are just military-style killing machines and the right of self-defense and the ability to hunt will go on."

Republicans argued that banning such weapons would violate the Second Amendment right to bear arms.

"Our founding fathers weren't talking about hunting, and they weren't talking about protecting themselves from the thief down the street who might break in," said Republican Sen. David Simmons. Simmons said people need guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.

"Adolf Hitler confiscated all the weapons -- took all the weapons, had a registry of everybody -- and then on the night of June 30th, 1934, sent out his secret police and murdered all of his political opponents," Simmons said. "You think it doesn't happen in a free society? It does."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-senate-passes-immediately-reverses-ar-15-ban-2018-03-03/
274   FortWayne   2018 Mar 4, 8:56pm  

Booger says


As funny as this is. Considering how stupid the left is, if this was real, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
277   LeonDurham   2018 May 3, 6:23am  

WarrenTheApe says
Arms are guns. Learn historical context.


Nope. Wrong again Warren. Look up the definition of arms. If it means guns, why not say guns. Or firearms.

The Fathers kept it general on purpose.
278   FortWayne   2018 May 3, 6:44am  

Democrats seem to hate freedoms people get. Gets in a way of government running our lives.
279   RWSGFY   2018 May 3, 8:51am  

The most funny bunch is the people who argue with a straight face that all the 2nd means is that a state is allowed to have an army.
281   HeadSet   2018 Dec 12, 2:21pm  

the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

Interesting. I do not know, but in 1820, a time when the writers and original interpreters of the Constitution were still around, was a common person allowed to own a cannon? They were allowed to be Privateers, owning fully equipped warships.
282   MrMagic   2018 Dec 16, 6:17pm  

HeadSet says
the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own whatever weapons they choose.

Interesting. I do not know, but in 1820, a time when the writers and original interpreters of the Constitution were still around, was a common person allowed to own a cannon? They were allowed to be Privateers, owning fully equipped warships.


They were able to own the same equipment the government owned back then.

Today, not so much....

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