patrick.net

I don’t recall all the “experts” criticizing Obama when he met with a brutal dictator in Cuba who also oversaw a police state & also killed & jailed his opponents. #DoubleStandard

Man, it's amazing to watch some folks call others delusional, as they deny massive progress towards a breakthrough 70-years in waiting.

I personally don't see any special #win there, but I don't see any #loss either. So far the situation is similar to Bush removing NK from terrorist-sponsoring countries list in exchange to desctruction of a reactor cooling tower. It's too early to tell whether this new talks end up the same way (i.e. nothingburger) or lead to something bigger. I just don't trust the fucking commie fucks. Unless these regimes are completely dismantled they will continue playing fucking games. One look at the Russian fucks is all proof you'll ever need.

This is what you missed:

joshuatrio says

All the liberals/SJW's are melting down about how Trump gave everything to China/Russia. Am I missing something here?

From my understanding, the only thing Trump agreed to was stopping the twice a year joint exercises that can be restarted at a moments notice.

He also said he would pull our 28K military personal out of SK.

I'm not judging it bad, but to deny it's a big concession ?

Interesting where we've gotten with our politics. If someone is critical of Trump, they must be a liberal/SJW.

In other words, I guess if you're a republican, it's impossible for Trump to fuck up, and if you're liberal that's all he ever does.

Isn't being an American wonderful ?

Case in point:
Patrick says

This is truly an epic win for The Donald, and it very difficult to spin it otherwise.

Trump’s vow to end South Korea military drills and pull out troops confounds Seoul and contradicts Pentagon stance

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/2150491/trumps-vow-end-military-drills-south-korea-contradicts-pentagon

Seems like pretty classic Trump to me.

I guess that guarantees we will be the first ones not to honor our side of the deal.

I guess removing the troops is a carrot for a future deal, and not include with this "deal."

Booger says

I don’t recall all the “experts” criticizing Obama when he met with a brutal dictator in Cuba who also oversaw a police state & also killed & jailed his opponents.

Were you applauding him ?

marcus says

He also said he would pull our 28K military personal out of SK.

Woah, that's excellent if true. At least a billion dollars in savings every year.

Another win.

Since I have a friend who was decently deployed to Korea, I’m glad for peace. Oh and no impending nuclear doom on our Left Coast is also good for us in California. I’m sorry if that hurts your policy wonk pride or feelings. Sure NK is still an awful place with awful human rights abuses. But if Cuba is any measure, isolation just makes the situation worse. While China, with the same horrible communist past, came out of isolation and became prosperous and much improved over the bad old days of Cultural Revolution.

Giving an opponent a measure of legitimacy is the ONLY way to resolve a conflict without a fight. Trust must go both ways, and if your position is that your enemy is completely incapable of being trusted, there can be no conflict resolution beyond total war.

Nobody but Libtards want that.

Patrick says

marcus says

He also said he would pull our 28K military personal out of SK.

Woah, that's excellent if true. At least a billion dollars in savings.

I'm not qualified to know if it's a win or not. But it turns out it wasn't promised as part of this deal.

Quigley says

Nobody but Libtards want that.

Funny how it takes a right wing TrumpCuck to know what the libtards want.

I would think you could just ask 10 libtards to find out what they want, but no, more fun to lie out your ass about what they want. You know, becasue of some Bill Maker meme. Isn't it great being an American ?

Quigley says

Giving an opponent a measure of legitimacy is the ONLY way to resolve a conflict without a fight.

True. You can't really win and have peace unless you give them a bit of honor as part of the deal.

America did not totally squash Germany after WWII, and also left the emperor in nominal charge of Japan, and those worked out well.

GW Bush was both an asshole and a moron and completely destroyed the Iraqi power structure and murdered Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. We are still suffering the consequences. Bush should be in jail.

joshuatrio says

What am I missing? N.Korea etc...

This is what relatively neutral people are saying.

The statement, which American officials negotiated intensely with the North Koreans and had hoped would be a road map to a nuclear deal, was a page and a half of diplomatic language recycled from statements negotiated by the North over the last two decades.

It made no mention of Mr. Trump’s longstanding — supposedly nonnegotiable — demand that North Korea submit to complete, verifiable, irreversible denuclearization. It made no mention of North Korea’s missiles. It did not even set a firm date for a follow-up meeting, though the president said he would invite Mr. Kim to the White House when the time was right.

“This is what North Korea has wanted from the beginning, and I cannot believe that our side allowed it,” said Joseph Y. Yun, a former State Department official who has negotiated with the North. “I am quite simply surprised that months of negotiations produced so little.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/world/asia/north-korea-summit.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

OH, but the Iran deal is TERRIBLE, just terrible.

Isn't it great being an American ?

Patrick says

Woah, that's excellent if true. At least a billion dollars in savings.

Another win.

Here's another thought, @Patrick.

The fact that these meeting even happened is a slap in the face to China. They were counting on using the North Korean issue as leverage in keeping their unfair trade practices.

Patrick says

GW Bush was both an asshole and a moron and completely destroyed the Iraqi power structure and murdered Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. We are still suffering the consequences. Bush should be in jail.

The Pentagon has a constantly revised plan for occupying Iraq. One of them was keeping Baa'thists in power to administer the country, at least in parts. Instead, they dropped the plan entirely on the eve of the invasion, along with the person who was supposed to run the show and had prepped for months to do so. Then they fired ALL the Baa'thists right off the bat, and they all ended up in Sunni Militias and many eventually in ISIS.

We didn't even fire all the low level Nazi party members running the Railroads and Post Offices after WW2. It would have been stupid to do so. Hell, the founder of the EU was leader of the Lawyer's Association under the Nazis.

marcus says

Obama said he'd meet with Kim without preconditions.

Trump established preconditions - suspension of all nuclear and ballistic missle tests, plus release of imprisoned Americans - that Kim met.

Just like Obama gave Iran all the cash and an end to sanctions upfront.

joshuatrio says

What am I missing? N.Korea etc...

What are we getting ?

My guess is yes, peace. The same peace we've had with NK for many decades. The same game we've played with NK for decades (except now they have nukes). I guess now we drop sanctions and turn on the money spigots ? ALthough NK gets that from China too. Is NK going to stop being a puppet of China ? Doubtful. Are they going to get us to decrease our military presence in that part of the world ? I don't know. Maybe.

Is not testing your misslies and nukes now that you know they work, denuclearizing ? I don't know. I don't think so.

I'm basically a conservative on the issue of NK. I don't want war, but as far as I could tell, the only reason we've been worried about war with NK was provocation by Trump in response to Kim's provocative tests.

Does Kim look like a big winner here, who basically got everything he wanted out of this ? I think so, yes.

Feux Follets says

Potus legitimized Kim on the world stage, something that will have far reaching and unintended consequences.

He certainly did..

Did you see when NK nuked Guam, like they threaten Trump that they were going to do?

Oh, wait.... Guam is still here...

Looks like Trump made Kim blink..

Next target Guam, North Korea says
Guam has long been a focal point of North Korea's anger against the US and is often a target of North Korean saber-rattling. It was threatened specifically by North Korea in 2013 and again earlier this month, following a fiery exchange of threats and insults between Trump and the North Korean regime.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/29/asia/north-korea-missile-launch-guam-threat/index.html

It was threatened specifically by North Korea in 2013 and again earlier this month, following a fiery exchange of threats and insults between Trump and the North Korean regime.

marcus says

This is what relatively neutral people are saying.

Tt months of negotiations produced so little.”

<...

marcus says

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/world/asia/north-korea-summit.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Hmmmm, when did NYT become "relatively neutral"?

Did Hell freeze over?

Another very reality based analysis. It includes the positives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/world/asia/trump-kim-meeting-interpreter.html

TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy says

The fact that these meeting even happened is a slap in the face to China. They were counting on using the North Korean issue as leverage in keeping their unfair trade practices.

Good point. I wonder if that was a big part of The Donald's motive. If so, yet another level of winning. Let's count the wins:

1. North Korea agrees to de-nuclearize
2. We pull out 28,000 troops from Korea, saving at least $1B/year and doing the right thing.
3. China has less to power to keep us buying 5x more from them than they do from us.

Patrick says

If so, yet another level of winning. Let's count the wins:

1. North Korea agrees to de-nuclearize
2. We pull out 28,000 troops from Korea, saving at least $1B/year and doing the right thing.
3. China has less to power to keep us buying 5x more from them than they do from us.

and the yankees have won the world series already since they say they will. winning. Oh wait, They have to play the season, playoffs, and world series first. Bugger.

Patrick says

America did not totally squash Germany after WWII, and also left the emperor in nominal charge of Japan, and those worked out well.

GW Bush was both an asshole and a moron and completely destroyed the Iraqi power structure and murdered Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. We are still suffering the consequences. Bush should be in jail.

Oh come on Patrick! We firebombed numerous Japanese cities killing hundreds of thousands and escalated to using nukes. Germany was completely rubbled and cut in half between the West and the USSR. We had war crime trials and executed many senior leaders in Germany and Japan. Compared to Germany and Japan, we went in with a scalpel in Iraq not inflicting a fraction of the destruction (most of the destruction was done by the insurgency after).

Most importantly - we occupied both of these countries for decades, wrote new Constitutions and still have troops there 70+ years later.

If anyone should be in jail, it should be Obama for abandoning Iraq to ISIS and chaos after less than 10 years.

Bottom line: this.
Hassan_Rouhani says

I just don't trust the fucking commie fucks. Unless these regimes are completely dismantled they will continue playing fucking games. One look at the Russian fucks is all proof you'll ever need.

when you have two professional liars negotiating, a concession is not a concession until it is actually implemented...
I put the odds of the 28k withdrawal about 500-1...

marcus says

He also said he would pull our 28K military personal out of SK.

I'm not judging it bad, but to deny it's a big concession ?

Never happen until NK truly denuclearizes.
Anything said otherwise is just smoke...

Patrick says

marcus says

He also said he would pull our 28K military personal out of SK.

Woah, that's excellent if true. At least a billion dollars in savings.

Another win.

Certainly not like the olden days...
marcus says

Isn't it great being an American ?

This is the work of a master negotiator operating in the 17th dimension...libbies will never comprehend no matter how many art degrees they accumulate...

TwoScoopsOfDragonEnergy says

The fact that these meeting even happened is a slap in the face to China. They were counting on using the North Korean issue as leverage in keeping their unfair trade practices.

How would you imagine we’d be SAVING money? We don’t fire the soldiers and they’ll still be needed, just in case NK isn’t trustworthy.

The move would actually cost more in the shorter run and you’d have to trust congress and the pentagon longer term.

Level 14 in play here. Pre-negotiation make it look to kim like trump can be his friend, as he disses kims enemies.

ThreeBays says

Is it leftist/SJW to point out how un-American Trump acted by giving the finger to western allies and then laying praise on a commie dictator war criminal?

CL says

How would you imagine we’d be SAVING money? We don’t fire the soldiers and they’ll still be needed, just in case NK isn’t trustworthy.

The move would actually cost more in the shorter run and you’d have to trust congress and the pentagon longer term.

Because the troops based in the US will be spending their money at home, helping local economies instead of overseas areas. Also, no rent or other payments to foreign governments for the permission to keep bases and related facilities.

socal2 says

Oh come on Patrick! We firebombed numerous Japanese cities killing hundreds of thousands and escalated to using nukes. Germany was completely rubbled and cut in half between the West and the USSR.

That was the war.

After the war, both Germany and Japan were treated very well and rebuilt.

Iraq, not.

Patrick says

After the war, both Germany and Japan were treated very well and rebuilt.

Iraq, not.

It’s tough to rebuild when the people of the region keep maliciously blowing up anything you build for them. Fucking Islam.

Not that it mattered. The rebuilding process was intended to benefit one constituency: the corporations which donated to W’s campaign. Remember Halliburton? Hundreds of billions in contracts in exchange for millions on the campaign trail. That’s how democracies do coalition politics!

Feux Follets says

They don't need Kim to do that.

Sorry, when you depend on hundreds of billions in exports to keep your economy going, and have no welfare system, you depend on the client, not the other way around.

Somehow people think that we didn't make most of this shit ourselves, which we did going into the 1990s.

Kind of like banking: You owe the bank some money, you have a problem. When you owe the bank a lot of money, the bank has a problem.

Tim Aurora says

Demilitarization : You mean Iran Deal. Right ? North Korea deal has no specifics.

This is the negotiation phase. BUT, unlike the Iran deal, DPRK halted all nuke and ballistic testing and released hostages prior to the negotiations.

Iran didn't give up jack shit to get the Iran Deal negotiations going.

Where is Obama, Bill Clinton, Baby Bush & Jimmy Carter?

They are pretty quiet! Maybe they haven’t heard the news about North Korea yet!

Somebody send this video to them pic.twitter.com/q3BuK3Q0gX

— Terrence K. Williams (@w_terrence) June 13, 2018