patrick.net

Kakistocracy says

tells you a lot about the average American financial intellect.

Average Russian financial intellect is so high they aren't even allowed to file their own tax returns: their taxes are withrawn from their paychecks and that's it.

d6rB says

Honest does not go together with journalist these days...

Same with Potus and his administration - no honesty or truth there as well

The tax changes ("cuts" ???) are dependent on the circumstances of the filer. Most people don't understand the changes and most people won't actually go calculate their 2018 taxes using the 2018 rules and the 2017 rules. Therefore, Trump lovers and Trump haters alike will all have plenty to complain about.

• Married couples get a $24k standard deduction. That's a huge benefit to married people in low-tax states. Even single people in low-tax state stand to benefit.
• AMT exemption is phased out much more slowly. That will help some high-tax filers.
• People with huge state taxes will generally be hurt except those that hit AMT hard and were effectively paying 28% federal AMT on 100% of their income (effectively not having any state and local deductions at all).

The Trump haters usually think he is incompetent, aloof, just playing golf, etc. They'll have to balance that idea in their mind with his "evil genius taxes changes" that he pulled off while secretly colluding with Russia. Cognitive dissonance deluxe! The reality is Trump probably had some advisors say "just sign this Republican-sponsored bill" and he did, knowing little of the details himself.

I make so much money that I don't care about taxes.

And much of my gains were 'qualified dividends' so once again, I don't care.

I live in CA, I don't expect the other 48 states (not counting NY) to subsadize my high tax rate.

But either way, I've got a tax cut. Just always lived frugally, not a problem with tax cap deductions.

TrumpingTits says

And for low tax Red States, the $10k cap will be more than enough for them to write off most...if not all...of their state taxes. It's enough for me in my circumstances in CA!

Actually, that person will get a $12k or $24k standard deduction. Not only will they pay less tax, but they will need to file less paperwork!

The article is quite to point. People don't understand taxes and even if overall their taxes are less, it's the refund, for a certain segment of the population that is important, nothing else seems to matter. I was an employer for many years and my employees would purposefully claim fewer or no dependants and even add a certain dollar amount to each pay period to be withheld for only one purpose to get a bigger refund. They couldn't save intelligently and this was in the days when you could get 4-5% on a money market account. Basically the government, at their request, saved for them. I can remember one year several guys getting really pissed (at me) because their refund had shrunk due to tax changes. If this is widespread it could be significant.

Hugolas_Madurez says

It takes special kind of dumb to confuse the fact of not getting a "return" with "tax hike".

Yes it does. It also takes a special kind of dumb to misuse "return" for "refund." I am seeing so fucking many commercials for used car lots saying they will give you a advance on your tax RETURN.... Stupid motherfuckers. Return is what you file.

The low info mofos don't get that their withholding adjusted down to compensate for the adjustment in the tax tables, and that getting a refund at the end of the year means you fucking suck at limiting your withholding. Giving the .Gov a no interest loan throughout the year is stupid, who do you think you are, the FED RESERVE?

SunnyvaleCA says

Married couples get a $24k standard deduction. That's a huge benefit to married people in low-tax states. Even single people in low-tax state stand to benefit.

TrumpingTits says

Not all. Since I can never afford a house in Libtard-controlled California, I didn't have anything to deduct except state income taxes. And I get my standard deduction DOUBLED.

I was just going to respond to the $24K. For renters, this higher deduction is a home run, since they don't deduct any mortgage interest, even if they live in a Blue State.

SunnyvaleCA says

People with huge state taxes

That's the case by me in the NorthEast. NJ, NY, CT, MA (and are Blue States) which have high income earners AND high property tax, will definitely get pounded. I know many in No. Jersey who have property taxes in the mid teens, and that's before state income taxes, so they will get screwed with the $10K max SALT deduction. Hell, I'm down in the Southern part of the state and getting screwed by that SALT Maximum. And this doesn't even factor in the loss of the $4K exemption per person.

TrumpingTits says

Those who weren't going to vote for Trump anyway actually have to PAY for the political stupidity?

True, but instead of putting the blame where it belongs (on their state politicians who have been fucking them over for decades), they'll just blame Trump for passing the law.

rdm says

The article is quite to point. People don't understand taxes and even if overall their taxes are less, it's the refund, for a certain segment of the population that is important, nothing else seems to matter. I was an employer for many years and my employees would purposefully claim fewer or no dependants and even add a certain dollar amount to each pay period to be withheld for only one purpose to get a bigger refund. They couldn't save intelligently and this was in the days when you could get 4-5% on a money market account. Basically the government, at their request, saved for them. I can remember one year several guys getting really pissed (at me) because their refund had shrunk due to tax changes. If this is widespread it could be significant.

Those dumbasses are financially incompetent, irresponsible fucksticks who can't exercise the discipline to get off the paycheck to paycheck hamster wheel. Whaaaa, I want daddy government to take money from me and save it for 12 months so I can pay somebody to write out a return and get some of it back. Then I will spend it all inside of a week. Truly disgusting.

MrMagic says

I was just going to respond to the $24K. For renters, this higher deduction is a home run, since they don't deduct any mortgage interest, even if they live in a Blue State.

Actually, the mortgage deduction is not part of the $10k SALT limit (State And Local Tax). Assuming you have $10k in state and local taxes, your mortgage interest would have to exceed $2k (single) or $14k (married) to exceed the $12k (single) or $24k (married) standard deduction.

Trump and the GOP Tax Plan Screwed Middle Class Parents Out of a Refund

As a father of two in a dual-earner household, sitting smack-dab in the middle of the middle-class. It’s February and I am terrified to do my 2018 taxes. It’s not because taxes are hard. It’s not because I’m seeing middle-class Trump supporters become apoplectic on Twitter as they calculate their tax bill. It’s because for the last three years I’ve been a remote worker itemizing my tax returns and, in 2017, House Republicans and President Trump stripped me of crucial deductions. So I hesitate to file. Because I know it’s going to be bad and I don’t want to find out just how bad.

I have, for the last three years enjoyed a refund. And the money I received from that refund often went back to my community. One year my wife and I bought a couch from a local business. The next we bought a bed from a local business. Other times, of course, we’ve used the refund to pay down debt. Either way, I am not expecting a refund this year. I’m expecting to write a check.

Here are some things I won’t be able to deduct on my tax bill this year: student loan interest, medical expenses, property taxes, and any home office expenses not paid by my company. Also, the threshold for charitable donations has increased so I can forget recouping the donations to Wounded Warriors, Habitat for Humanity, and PBS. Meanwhile -— and this is a true thing not a rhetorical point — if I owned a private plane I could deduct the maintenance of the aircraft.

Republican lawmakers are pointing out that workers have already pocketed the equivalent of their refund due to increases in their paychecks, a byproduct of the corporate tax rate getting lowered. Paul Ryan was particularly chuffed about this fact. Remember when he boasted about the school secretary receiving her $1.50 weekly raise because of the tax law? “She said that will more than cover her Costco membership for a year,” Ryan tweeted.



But that’s a specious claim. I earned my raise. (Editor’s Note: Yep.) And I don’t have any particular reason to believe things would have gone differently if the corporate tax was higher. And I work at a small company. There’s no way most workers at larger companies will ever know if they benefited from the corporate tax cut. But what they should know is that the government pulled in a lot less revenue, which is why Trump’s big fun parental leave proposal is probably DOA and why the government will continue to do so incredibly little to help parents even as childcare costs skyrocket. But there’s still a Social Security tax cap that ensures the uber-rich save $62,000 on every million dollars in salary they bring home. Cold comfort to me, as I pay a mortgage on my house, which also serves as my office.

And that not even counting the stock buybacks that have enriched shareholders to the tune of a trillion dollars in 2018, a historic amount. Does that wealth trickle down? It might if I was a waiter in a mid-town steak joint willing to hook a bro up for some Benjamins. But I’m not. I’m a writer. I live just outside Cleveland, Ohio. The trickles here froze long ago.

I will admit to being perplexed by Republican relatives who cheered the tax law along in 2017. I tried to warn them that this wasn’t in their best interests. They shrugged. I’m certain many of them will look at their return this year with red-faced frustration, but I doubt any of them will admit they were wrong. The fight distracts from the suffering. A strong sense of identity might be worth it for them. Me? I’d rather have some more money.

And you can rest assured I’m in no mood to say I told you so. I’m as screwed as they are. And perhaps that’s the biggest shocker. By screwing the middle-class, Trump might have managed to bring us together after all

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-gop-tax-plan-screwed-225652100.html

My taxes were decreased, and I think most people had their taxes decreased as well.

On a more philosophical note, I agree that tax cut was idiotic - we need to take care of budget deficit first, otherwise country will go broke with unpredictable consequences. Which means decrease spending now, and decrease taxes later, when budget is in order. However, this type of whiny, fact-free, emotions-based article is very counterproductive. It reads as if written by someone with ORANGE MAN BAD agenda, which repulses 50% of population instantly. If journalist wants to analyze this honestly, sentences such as "many in the middle class have been shocked to find that...they actually owe money to Uncle Sam" should read "x% will have taxes increased, y% no change, z% will have lower taxes". But this type of reporting would mean that since x is less than Z, article punchline would not work.

Instead of this logorrhea, journalist could have analyzed what havoc this tax cut will have on budget, what are possible consequences, etc. And the consequences are probably much worse that a middle class dad not being able to buy a BMW for his midlife crisis. But that would not be emotional enough, and WAAAAAAAAAA ORANGE MAN HITLER crowd would not get their daily emotional orgasm reading the article.

Elgatouno says

Exemptions that's going to be the real difference.

2 kids 2017 standard deduction + exemptions = $28,900
2 kids 2018 standard deduction (no exemps) = $24,000
And each additional dependent +$4,050 in 2017

Ouch!

Why are you being dishonest and leaving out other deductions for 2018 for kids?

....."The Child Tax Credit under 2018 tax reform is worth up to $2,000 per qualifying child. The age cut-off remains at 17 (the child must be under 17 at the end of the year for taxpayers to claim the credit)."
https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/irs/tax-reform/new-child-tax-credit/

Plus, you didn't factor in the lower tax rates for 2018, which also saves the family money.

Why were you dishonest? I know, because #OrangeManBad

Elgatouno says

I wonder, is the tax plan a way to make Americans dumber?

Who's going to get it the worst? T

Who's going to get it worst? Only a few. The dumb ones are the people living in high tax BLUE states:

Elgatouno says

Did you have any dependents, before or now?

One dependent, and taxes still went down. I am right about 200K bracket, slightly above or below last few yrs.

@MrMagic, I did not know that so few taxpayers will have taxes increased - thanks for the info-graphic! Shows that person who wrote the article really suffers from ORANGE MAN HITLER mindset, and chose FACTS very selectively to make fellow ORANGEMANBAD NPC's happy. Including this easily available info-graphic in the article would certainly be more honest that the crappy reporting we have now.

And additional note - vote for people who like tax increases, get poetic justice of your taxes being selectively increased. Win-win! This type of trolling is one of very few things I like about Orange Man.

The idea that we should be taking refund or no refund is preposterous, and entirely misses the truth. It misses the truth by so much as to effectively be a lie.

Now truth. Housing has totally eclipsed me in So Cal. So I don’t itemize in my federal tax return and never have. The only exemptions I have from federal taxes are the standard deduction, my retirement contributions, and my 457 contributions.

For my 2018 return I just filed, I paid roughly $3500 less than I would have on the same income in 2017. I’m upper middle class income by middle america standards, but middle class only by urban west coast standards.

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda. There’s actual metrics available by which one can make an apples to apples comparison. Using any other annecdotes...there seems to be only intent to deceive.

CovfefeButDeadly says

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda

Does this also apply to Jim Hoft and Alex Jones etc. ?

CovfefeButDeadly says

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda

Does this also apply to Jim Hoft and Alex Jones etc. ?

d6rB says

Orange Man

'
Keep seeing and hearing about this Orange Man Bad - is this some new rapper or a new K-Pop group?

Don't y'all just miss the good old days when we had Barry and Hillary to pummel on a daily basis ? Wasn't that a swell time ?

God forbid the "base" lives to see a woman as president, especially a minority woman.

Bad enough the collective psyche is still bruised from having to deal with a black man in the oval office for 8 years - put a woman in there and it will be like a lemming migration to jump off the cliffs.

Kakistocracy says

Keep seeing and hearing about this Orange Man Bad - is this some new rapper or a new K-Pop group?

Don't y'all just miss the good old days when we had Barry and Hillary to pummel on a daily basis ? Wasn't that a swell time ?

God forbid the "base" lives to see a woman as president, especially a minority woman.

Bad enough the collective psyche is still bruised from having to deal with a black man in the oval office for 8 years - put a woman in there and it will be like a lemming migration to jump off the cliffs.

I don't really like Orange Man (other than his rather skillful trolling), did not vote for him, do not like his tax cut even though I benefit, do not like his ADD style behavior where what is true now is not necessarily true 1 hr later etc. But I also think that instead of accusing him of phantom bad deeds like this article does, perhaps more fact-based reporting would be nice. Otherwise it seems that journalism has degenerated into ORANGEMANBAD cult, where adherents of the cult have no brains and thus can not pick out anything actually bad and stupid the Orange Man has done, which there are plenty examples of.
It would also be nice to have comments about the substance of the article, instead of blanket accusations of opponents being racists. I guess when we run out of facts, next comes "but you are a racist" argument.

d6rB says

It would also be nice to have comments about the substance of the article

Tell me about it, same with comments about TDS etc. by people who are on ignore and hacking the thread because they feel they are being clever and cute and have nothing of substance to offer except hysterical political rants.

Then again that is the normal on 99% of the threads from both sides.

You get people referring to Michael Hudson as who the fuck is he or the his writing is like that of an adolescent 20 something because they can not comprehend what he is saying.

Working on a new thread about taxes that should not focus on the Dotard

Kakistocracy says

Working on a new thread about taxes that should not focus on the Dotard

There are very, very few articles that can be considered "fact-based" journalism. Most of it panders to stroking beliefs of one or another side of political divide, as unbiased analysis will not be profitable.

Very true - I am still considering the source and re-reading & reviewing before doing any posting on the matter.

Kakistocracy says

CovfefeButDeadly says

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda

Does this also apply to Jim Hoft and Alex Jones etc. ?

CovfefeButDeadly says

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda

Does this also apply to Jim Hoft and Alex Jones etc. ?

d6rB says

Orange Man

'
Keep seeing and hearing about this Orange Man Bad - is this some new rapper or a new K-Pop group?

Don't y'all just miss the good old days when we had Barry and Hillary to pummel on a daily basis ? Wasn't that a swell time ?

God forbid the "base" lives to see a woman as president, especially a minority woman.

Bad enough the collective psych...

You keep bringing up Alex Jones. The guy is a kook.

Anyway it’s a false equivalency as you are the one that keeps posting propaganda.

Dads don’t freak out. Chicks do. I suppose liberal men are like chicks anyway, glorified doormats for feminists.

Elgatouno says

You left this graph out from that market watch article

What's to leave out, it supports the argument, if you're not paying hardly and taxes to start with, what type of tax breaks should you get? Like 45% of the population doesn't pay federal taxes NOW. Do you want the government to send them a refund check for taxes they DIDN'T pay?

The people paying the most taxes see the biggest break. For people with critical thinking skills, this is obvious. For others in this thread, not so much.

Kakistocracy says

CovfefeButDeadly says

I can only say that news and opinion articles stating otherwise are purely propaganda

Does this also apply to Jim Hoft and Alex Jones etc. ?

Who's posting stories and links here from those guys??

Bueller??

CovfefeButDeadly says

You keep bringing up Alex Jones. The guy is a kook.

Anyway it’s a false equivalency as you are the one that keeps posting propaganda.

Apparently, that's the only way he can justified his propaganda and TDS.

Elgatouno says

MrMagic says

Why are you being dishonest and leaving out other deductions for 2018 for kids?

If I'd have brought it up then maybe I wouldn't have drawn you into the conversation.

Yet how honest are you being without admitting that the child tax credit existed before? so really it's only a $1,000 difference not $2,000 like you were leading us to believe.

So, why didn't you mention in in your deduction post, if you KNEW it already existed? Hmmmm..

MORE dishonesty?

Strike Two!!!

U.S. taxpayers are filing their first returns under the 2017 tax code overhaul that lowered rates for most people. What makes the paperwork headaches tolerable for many is the promise of a tax refund at the finish line. Yet more taxpayers will end up with no refund, or a smaller one, compared with a year ago, before the lower rates fully took effect. How could that be? The explanation rests with the many other changes that made it into the revised tax code. Some Americans are venting their surprise and anger.

1. What were the other changes?

The overhaul pushed through by President Donald Trump’s fellow Republicans in Congress did much more than lower rates for individuals and companies. It also eliminated some valuable tax breaks used by taxpayers to trim their bills, enhanced a tax credit bestowed on families with children and created brand-new benefits for certain taxpayers, such as business owners. Many people who live in high tax states, such as New York, New Jersey and California, will be able to write off only a fraction of what they pay in state and local taxes. Someone who travels frequently for work, but doesn’t have mileage covered, could owe more in taxes because there’s no longer a deduction for non-reimbursed business expenses. Everything considered, though, a clear majority of Americans -- four out of five, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington -- were supposed to see a reduction in taxes.

2. Then why aren’t there lots more refunds?

The Internal Revenue Service offers ongoing guidance to help employees and employers decide how much money to withhold from paychecks so that most income taxes are paid automatically and gradually throughout the year. The shifting tax brackets -- they now start at 10 percent and top out at 37 percent for income about $500,000 -- plus changes to exemptions, deductions and credits meant that many taxpayers needed to adjust their withholding. But most taxpayers were confused how to do so, according to tax adviser H&R Block Inc. (The IRS reworked its calculations, but the updated tables didn’t translate precisely from the old law.) Home Depot Inc. found that only 1 percent of its employees had altered their withholding.

3. What’s the outlook for tax refunds?

The IRS expects to issue 105.8 million refunds this year, down 2 percent from last year’s 108.3 million. According to Ernie Tedeschi, a former Treasury Department economist who analyzed the topic for research firm Evercore ISI, many taxpayers with incomes below $100,000 will get their tax cut in the form of a bigger refund, while those with higher incomes got the tax cut in the form of higher paychecks throughout 2018 -- and therefore might be expecting refunds that aren’t coming. Analysts anticipate the total dollar amount refunded to be slightly higher, meaning some people will get bigger refunds than in the past. Among them are couples with children, since the standard deductions for filing as a couple, as well as the child tax credit, both almost doubled in the revised tax code.

4. Who won’t be getting a refund at all?

More than 30 million Americans -- 21 percent of taxpayers -- didn’t have enough taken out of their paychecks throughout the year, meaning they will owe the IRS will they file their returns this year, according to a study from the Government Accountability Office. That’s an increase from 18 percent of taxpayers who were under-withheld last year. That means about 5 million people who got a refund last year won’t be getting one this year.

5. Who’s angry?

Some taxpayers have turned to Twitter to vent their unhappiness after completing their tax returns and seeing the bottom line. A representative sample: "I filed my 2018 tax return today as a substitute teacher. My refund will be 40% less than the refund I got last year."

6. What does this mean for consumer spending?

Despite fewer tax refunds overall, Wall Street analysts are expecting to see a boost in spending from the lower-income consumers who will benefit from the expansion of the child tax credit. Middle-income households, those earning from $55,000 to $75,000 a year, will also see benefits, with as much as half of their tax-cut bounty showing up in refunds, Wells Fargo said. The tax-cut sugar high could be short lived, however, the Congressional Budget Office said the effects of the tax cuts are set to wane in the coming quarters.

7. What are the political ramifications of this?

Fewer people getting refunds will give U.S. Democrats, who now hold a majority in the House of Representatives, an opening to question how much the tax law benefited the middle class. Only about 45 percent of voters approve of the tax cut, according to recent polls, and many Republicans in high-tax states already lost their seats in the 2018 midterm elections due to the changes in the deductibility of state and local taxes. Looking ahead to the 2020 presidential election, dissatisfaction with the tax law gives Democrats an opening to promise tax changes of their own, ones that favor the middle class at the expense of the wealthy.

The Reference Shelf

The IRS won’t penalize you -- this year only -- if you didn’t withhold enough.

Tax preparers could suffer as more people file their taxes the simple way.

Get your tax documents ready. This IRS calculator tells you how much to withhold.

Tax refunds might be higher, lower or later this year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/businessweek

The "middle class tax cuts" will expire in 10 years -not so for the rest of the package.

@d6rB - The latest comment is not what I was talking about earlier - I still have a lot of reading to do to see if the material I would like to use is as neutral as possible, if so I will do another thread on the tax package and it's effects.

jazz_music says

ORANGE MAN MUSSOLINI is far more accurate

Both like(d) self-aggrandizement and flattery.

Unfortunately I have heard from quite a few of my TDS-infected acquaintances that TRUMP IS WORSE THAN HITLER. That is beyond clinical help. I am not joking, and neither were my highly educated acquaintances.

Kakistocracy says

@d6rB - The latest comment is not what I was talking about earlier - I still have a lot of reading to do to see if the material I would like to use is as neutral as possible, if so I will do another thread on the tax package and it's effects.

That’s not true!

If it were true you’d be quoting tax code which is as neutral and fact based as it gets!

I swear I can relate to Lisa Simpson at this moment more than ever.