patrick.net

richwicks says

What are Russia's stated goals?

The goal as stated by Putin several times was to "Denazify and demilitarize Ukraine" and to prevent future encroachment of NATO on Russian borders.

Hence the reason why Putin sent thousands of troops to topple the national government in Kiev (who controls the military and apparently all the "Nazees") early on in the invasion.

Kiev is still standing, Ukraine has recaptured much of the land lost to Russia in the early months of the war and Russia now has a brand new NATO member (Finland) on their border.

Again, I am not pretending this war is over or that Russia can't recover. All I am saying that "right now" Russia is not achieving their stated military and geopolitical goals.

socal2 says

richwicks says

What are Russia's stated goals?

The goal as stated by Putin several times was to "Denazify and demilitarize Ukraine" and to prevent future encroachment of NATO on Russian borders.

Do the stated goals matter? Can we not observe and infer what Mr Putin's objectives are?


Fielding quick-fire questions from supporters in Russia’s European exclave of Kaliningrad, Putin was asked what Russian historical event he would like to change.

“The collapse of the Soviet Union,” Putin immediately shot back.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-election-putin-idUSKCN1GE2TF

The 'recaptured' land was a shooting gallery flatlands that Russia ceded back rather than defend while pointlessly losing soldiers. It's not proof of anything other than a killing field of whoever occupies it at the present. It's amazing that they keep citing this as evidence of failure.

The Russians rain rockets on it to kill more Ukrainian sitting ducks. They can mop it up later after they finish disposing of what's left of the Ukrainian army and its ragged conscripts and grinding up all those weapons that haven't wound up on the black markets.

socal2 says

richwicks says

What are Russia's stated goals?

The goal as stated by Putin several times was to "Denazify and demilitarize Ukraine" and to prevent future encroachment of NATO on Russian borders.

Oh, those goals will be attained.

Ukraine is going to be destroyed.

The real goal of Russia is to weaken NATO and the United States.

The goal of the United States is money laundering and feeding the MIC, and also preventing Russia from exporting energy to Europe so that the US can control Europe through energy imports. They are also trying to restart the Cold War, which you could argue has already been achieved.

socal2 says

Kiev is still standing, Ukraine has recaptured much of the land lost to Russia in the early months of the war and Russia now has a brand new NATO member (Finland) on their border.

This doesn't matter. Russia will just retake it. Their aim is destroying the military, not taking land. The entire Ukrainian military will be wiped out in the end. They don't have an airforce, that alone makes them fucked.

socal2 says

Again, I am not pretending this war is over or that Russia can't recover. All I am saying that "right now" Russia is not achieving their stated military and geopolitical goals.

Of course not. This is a long term proxy war between Russia and the United States. It will take YEARS and both will achieve their objectives - well, the US won't, they're not going to significantly weaken Russia, but Europe will be weakened, but I think the US wants that.

Ceffer says

The 'recaptured' land was a shooting gallery flatlands that Russia ceded back rather than defend while pointlessly losing soldiers.

Then why did Russia waste thousands of lives and massive amount of material to take this land in the first place if they were just going to give abandon it?

Ceffer says

The Russians rain rockets on it to kill more Ukrainian sitting ducks. They can mop it up later after they finish disposing of what's left of the Ukrainian army and its ragged conscripts and grinding up all those weapons that haven't wound up on the black markets.

Yes - we know. Russia has been doing this from the start. Yet they possess less land in Ukraine today then they did a year ago despite massive loss of life.

BTW - how many more "seasoned" and well trained troops does Russia have left to throw into the Ukrainian meat grinder? They lost alot of experienced troops in the initial push to take Kiev. Russia already had to plumb the depths of the well by using convicts, Wagner, Chechans, Syrians, and Iranians. Got to believe new conscripts in Ukraine will be better motivated, trained and equipped then the new conscripts Russia is pulling from their far flung ethnic provinces to fight an increasingly unpopular war.

socal2 says

Ceffer says

The 'recaptured' land was a shooting gallery flatlands that Russia ceded back rather than defend while pointlessly losing soldiers.

Then why did Russia waste thousands of lives and massive amount of material to take this land in the first place if they were just going to give abandon it?

To kill Ukrainian soldiers. They are destroying the Ukrainian military.

We do not know, and don't pretend we do know, how many Russians were killed in these efforts. We don't know. Our government has been lying for decades about every war. This is no different.

Once the Ukrainian military is gone, it's pretty easy to retake land, especially in Eastern Ukraine which have been bombed and attacked since 2014.

socal2 says

Ceffer says

The Russians rain rockets on it to kill more Ukrainian sitting ducks. They can mop it up later after they finish disposing of what's left of the Ukrainian army and its ragged conscripts and grinding up all those weapons that haven't wound up on the black markets.

Yes - we know. Russia has been doing this from the start. Yet they possess less land in Ukraine today then they did a year ago despite massive loss of life.

BTW - how many more "seasoned" and well trained troops does Russia have left to throw into the Ukrainian meat grinder? They lost alot of experienced troops in the initial push to take Kiev. Russia already had to plumb the depths of the well by using convicts, Wagner, Chechans, Syrians, and Iranians. Got to believe new conscripts in Ukraine will be better motivated, trained and equipped then the new conscripts Russia is pulling from their far flung ethnic provinces to fight an increasingly unpopular war.

You don't know. Our government lies. You know this. There was just a limited hangout release of supposedly "secret documents", this is to ease the public into accepting part of the reality.

Our government is lying.

There's certainly Russian troops being killed, no doubt. But Ukraine is a smaller country, and they have less people. If it was a 1:1 kill ratio, Ukraine would STILL lose, and it's at least 4:1 - according to the "secret documents". Once all the Ukrainian military is wiped out, it's either NATO actually goes to war with Russia (unlikely) or it's going to be a mercenary effort.

There's no air support for Ukraine, because NATO or the United States would have to do that, and that's WWIII. Nobody is going to win that.

Ukraine is on a suicide mission, just the Ukrainians don't know that's the course their traitor president Zelensky and his immediate handler, Ihor Kolomoyskyi has set them on. The only question about the end of this stupid conflict, is how many people pointlessly die?

LOL! Partition en route. "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an Army today!" Will Hungary and Romania get their chunks, too?

https://t.me/DH_newz/2677

Ceffer says

LOL! Partition en route. "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an Army today!" Will Hungary and Romania get their chunks, too?

https://t.me/DH_newz/2677

If this is true, this is an intentional breakup of Ukraine, that was part of the reason for starting the war.

Whereʼs the map updates? Has it been abandoned?

Here, I'll help:

richwicks says

If this is true, this is an intentional breakup of Ukraine, that was part of the reason for starting the war.

And a very, very old & repeated process. Poland-Lithuania, Austria, Russia, Prussia, all have had fun partioning Ukraine over the centuries.

Hey, about that clever idea of having a price cap on Russian oil ??????

It was set at $60 per barrel. Funny Russian crude averaged in at $74 per barrel in August.

Oh, I'm sure the Europeans can explain away the new highs for the volume of Russian LNG they imported as well.

WOW. Reality doesn't hold up to the rhetoric. Here's the funny commentary from our Treasury Department.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-price-cap-on-russian-oil-a-progress-report

Map update, plz:

A Russian-appointed official has acknowledged that Moscow's forces have abandoned the Ukrainian village of Robotyne, more than a week after Kyiv announced its recapture.
Yevgeny Balitsky, the top Moscow-installed official in the Zaporizhzhia region, said in a television interview that the Russian army had withdrawn for what he called tactical reasons.
"The Russian army abandoned - tactically abandoned - this settlement because staying on a bare surface when there is no way to completely dig in... doesn't generally make sense. Therefore the Russian army moved off into the hills," news outlet RBC quoted him as saying.
Russia has not previously acknowledged the loss of Robotyne, whose recapture was announced by Ukraine on Aug. 28. In its daily update on Tuesday, the Russian Defence Ministry said its forces had repelled two Ukrainian attacks near Robotyne.
More than 18 months after Russia's invasion, Ukraine says it is gaining ground and has broken through Russia's first line of fortifications in several places on the front line, despite repeated statements from Moscow that Ukraine's three-month-old counteroffensive has been a failure.
Reporting by Mark Trevelyan;

Oh wow! They gave up A VILLAGE!

How many stoplights did it have?

How many Ukeys died to capture it?

https://kyivindependent.com/new-brigade-bears-heavy-brunt-of-russias-onslaught-in-kharkiv-oblast/

Ukeys are so attritted, they are sending 71 year olds to NATO training camps now.

…that’s right: FT identified a 71-year-old Ukrainian in the ranks of the NATO-sponsored training program. While perhaps admirable in terms of the individual elderly man’s courage and willingness to defend his country, the whole scenario underscores the sad state of affairs within Ukraine military ranks, given they are sending geriatrics.

https://www.gulf-insider.com/ft-discovers-71-year-old-ukrainian-in-nato-training-program/

Trollhole says

Oh wow! They gave up A VILLAGE!

How many stoplights did it have?

How many Ukeys died to capture it?

Russia has been losing territory and men for over a year now in Ukraine.

How many Russians have died in the past 18 months just to embarrass and expose Russia to the whole world as nothing but a 3rd rate fighting force?

In what universe does Russia come out of this for the better?

socal2 says

Russia has been losing territory and men for over a year now in Ukraine.

How many Russians have died in the past 18 months just to embarrass and expose Russia to the whole world as nothing but a 3rd rate fighting force?

In what universe does Russia come out of this for the better?

Everything you just wrote is either wilfully taken out of context or just pure propaganda bullshit.

Ukeys in their desperation to win a war over territory have become embroiled into a war of attrition instead. One they are losing and the Russians are winning, period.

Trollhole says

Everything you just wrote is either wilfully taken out of context or just pure propaganda bullshit.

What is false or out of context?

There can be no disputing that Russia has less conquered territory in Ukraine today than they had 1 year ago despite spending BILLIONS on material and tens of thousands of Russian lives.

There can be no disputing that Russia's cockup invasion created new NATO members right on their border and united most of the world against them.

Face it - Russia lost in the first month of the war failing to topple Kiev and the leadership. They have no hope but to continue a grinding trench battle against better armed and motivated Ukrainians.

What does a "win" look like for Russia at this point?

Look at the stupid and bold map predictions on this thread from a year ago. Russia is in the process of losing a big chunk of the "Certain" territory right now.

So much winning! Just need another Russian mobilization to sort things out!

socal2 says

What is false or out of context?

I'll field this:

socal2 says

Russia has been losing territory and men for over a year now in Ukraine.

Russia isn't interested in keeping every inch of territory. The more territory they have, the more they have to defend. They are primarily interested in destroying the Ukrainian military. They may repeatedly take, and give up land in order to do that.

socal2 says

How many Russians have died in the past 18 months just to embarrass and expose Russia to the whole world as nothing but a 3rd rate fighting force?

We don't now and our government constantly lies to us. Just like there was no weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq, Qaddafi wasn't handing out Viagra to soldiers to rape little girls, and there's ZERO evidence that Assad was responsible for the gassing in Ghouta, and the US lied about a chemical attack in Douma.

Now having said that, leaks were important in assessing the situation. The Niger documents were forgeries, we had the Downing Street Memo leak. There wasn't any leaks about Libya, but I didn't look for it, because the justification for bombing Libya was just obvious propaganda. The OPCW had whistleblowers that explained what actually happened in Douma.

The only real leak I know of in this war, is the Discord leaks. It might be false, but IF it's true, the death rate is 7:1 - 7 Ukrainians for every 1 Russian killed.

I don't know why the government ALWAYS pretends when we know they are lying, but I know they are doing it now. Why do you believe it?

socal2 says

In what universe does Russia come out of this for the better?

The Ukrainian military will not exist in the end, Russia has stronger trade relations with India and China, and Russia will have an inroad into Africa for trade.

Russia will also end energy exports to Europe, which will drastically reduce the desire of the US to attack Russia again.

Both Russia and the US will end up ahead. US is now a major energy supplier to Europe. Europe is the big loser.

Here's a redpill on a different tack:

Notice the Ukraine will draft ill, disabled, large # of dependents, etc. men before it will draft healthy young Camgirls and female Club Goers.

That being said, Russia is clearly NOT a threat because of their complete shit performance in Ukraine. By sheer weight of men and materiale they should have been in Kiev at a week, tops.

AmericanKulak says

That being said, Russia is clearly NOT a threat because of their complete shit performance in Ukraine. By sheer weight of men and materiale they should have been in Kiev at a week, tops.

You know how the US foreign policy is controlled by a bunch of Neocon assholes that create unnecessary wars, that last for years, and they don't even bother to have a mission or goal in the war? For example, what was the mission / goal of Afghanistan? How about Iraq?

So, you know how Ukraine is controlled by a bunch of Neocon assholes...

Russia will completely destroy the Ukrainian military, and Ukraine's military isn't going to collapse due to lack of weapons or money, it will be the lack of men. Voila! Ukraine is neutral then. Mission accomplished.

socal2 says

What is false or out of context?

There can be no disputing that Russia has less conquered territory in Ukraine today than they had 1 year ago despite spending BILLIONS on material and tens of thousands of Russian lives.

You are totally clueless.

Russia does not have to 'win' this war. Ukraine does.

And Ukraine failed to do so. And because of that, it is toast.

Period.

All the bullshit non-points you mention are just that when brought up against the aforementioned reality.

AmericanKulak says

That being said, Russia is clearly NOT a threat because of their complete shit performance in Ukraine. By sheer weight of men and materiale they should have been in Kiev at a week, tops.

Why? Because YOU say so?

Russia isn't fighting a war for territory. Not in this phase. It got what it wanted as far as territory goes and can hold it indefinitely.

Ukraine on the other hand can't win unless it gets its territory back. Which it won't.

All Russia has to do is keep letting the Butchers of Kyiv throw more men into the slaughter. Russian efficiency at killing Ukies being thrown up against their echelon defenses exceeds that of the Nazi death camps.

Ukraine is fucked. But you can't see that because of how YOU IMAGINE this war to be and how YOU IMAGINE it is being fought is at odds with actual reality.

Ukraine

Is

Fucked

Read & learn something:

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/bound-to-lose

Trollhole says

Russia isn't fighting a war for territory. Not in this phase. It got what it wanted as far as territory goes and can hold it indefinitely.

I'm going to give you something that will likely annoy you, but it's friendly advice.

Don't get frustrated by people that "disagree with you", especially if they only pretend to disagree with you.

Just assume they are genuinely wrong, and explain how they are wrong. There's PLENTY of people that just pretend you are wrong, when they know you're correct. This includes assholes, propagandists (professional assholes), and trolls (assholes for fun and games). I generally assume I'm dealing with a propagandist when I suspect they know they are wrong, and still persist.

It really doesn't matter what an AMERICAN believes about this stupid fucking war, we have ZERO control over our government, and therefore ZERO control over the outcome of this war. I'd prefer it to end as soon as possible, but it won't. This is a proxy war and a shared goal of each power is to damage the other power through attrition. I don't believe people in control of US foreign policy give a shit about the health of the nation or the future of Americans at all.

Because the United States spends 10x to 100x on their shitty military weaponry, because that's extremely lucrative to the Offense Industry, I expect the United States to lose. That's not a goal of the Offense Industry. They don't care about wining, they care about profits.

You have understand what a sociopath is. It's like in a video game, do you feel badly about killing a video game character or another player? That's how they feel, they don't feel. They have as much guilt and remorse about getting a 100 babies killed as you do cracking 100 eggs.

Americans are generally entirely divorced from reality. They've never seen real war, even the MILITARY has never seen real war. They aren't seeing their wives and mothers raped and murdered, they aren't seeing their kids starve in abject poverty, their cities destroyed. Why do you think we have such violent films, and the "enemy" whoever it is, is depicted as pure evil? It's to desensitize them and it's been very successful.

Want to see a horrific war film? Watch "Come and See" by Elem Klimov. This film is subtitled, and that's for the best. It's horrific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See

Somebody, somewhere, is going through that shit right now. War is horrific.

I've never experienced war except 2nd hand. I knew people completely fucked by it. They never recovered. I knew a man whose job was to drag bodies out of Normandy beach to be buried. My great uncle photographed either Hiroshima or Nagasaki - I know he did this, but not which city. I was forbidden from asking questions. The past is dead and buried and should be, to an extent. We keep making the same mistakes.

Most people, even the people involved, have no clue. The horrific starvation we all saw in Nazi Germany in concentration camps - that's because the Allies cut off supply lines - they were slave labor camps making munitions. The Allies didn't just cut off raw materials, they cut off food. War is insane, and propaganda was quickly produced to blame the Germans for this, when we were responsible, but it had to be done. It's ruthless.

My objection to the Ukraine war, is it's not necessary. I'm suspecting at this point neither WWI or WWII were necessary so I'm looking for who is causing this shit, and it might very well be our banking industry. They profit enormously over the destruction.

richwicks says

Russia isn't interested in keeping every inch of territory. The more territory they have, the more they have to defend. They are primarily interested in destroying the Ukrainian military. They may repeatedly take, and give up land in order to do that.

And Ukraine is now one of the heaviest armed, motivated and most experienced militaries in Europe launching near daily drone attacks deep inside Russia including Moscow.

Even Russian propagandists on RT and the Prigozhin admitted that Russia's main goal of demilitarizing the Ukrainian "Nazees" was a total failure to this point.

But keep moving those goal posts!

socal2 says

And Ukraine is now one of the heaviest armed, motivated and most experienced militaries in Europe launching near daily drone attacks deep inside Russia including Moscow.

Oh wow! Drone attacks that do jack shit with regards to the strategic situation.

'Heaviest armed'? Hahaha.

Why Russia Isn't Actually Collapsing


original link

socal2 says

And Ukraine is now one of the heaviest armed, motivated and most experienced militaries in Europe launching near daily drone attacks deep inside Russia including Moscow.

Their military has been cut in 1/2 if you are to believe the so-called Discord leaks.

They could be the most heavily armed military in the world, but if they don't have any living people to use the weapons, it doesn't matter.

socal2 says

And Ukraine is now one of the heaviest armed, motivated and most experienced militaries in Europe launching near daily drone attacks deep inside Russia including Moscow.

Interesting. That sounds like a description of Germany in 1944, with Germany's V1 and V2 "drone" attacks deep inside Britain including London.

HeadSet says

socal2 says

And Ukraine is now one of the heaviest armed, motivated and most experienced militaries in Europe launching near daily drone attacks deep inside Russia including Moscow.

Interesting. That sounds like a description of Germany in 1944, with Germany's V1 and V2 "drone" attacks deep inside Britain including London.

Germany had to resort to V1/V2's after failing to control the sky with conventional aerial bombing years earlier.

Ukraine never had control of the airspace, or ability to launch drone attacks against Russia.

So these recent attacks inside Russia is a major escalation, and a major nuisance causing Russia to move it's dwindling anti-air defense systems around major cities and commercial airports as opposed to protecting Russian invaders inside of Ukraine.

Russia’s Tiny Drones Are Now Flying Far Enough To Blow Up Ukrainian MiGs At Their Bases

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/19/russias-tiny-drones-are-now-flying-far-enough-to-blow-up-ukrainian-migs-at-their-bases/

(To the tune of On top of Old Smokey)

Oh on top of Mount Ukey
All covered in propaganda shit
A MiG fighter, took a Russian drone hit.
The Ukey shills on PatNet
will scream, "That is a LIE!"
Oblivious that their sisters,
are taking Russian creampie!

Very redpilled to see what the Ukie women are up to while the men are sent "Back to the Front".

They're ass shakin' for foreign workers in Kiev
https://www.nytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x62d2lljsciiyd.onion/2022/07/26/world/asia/kyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html

or doing Onlyfans for cash on top of their Eurorefugee benefits in Helsinki while filing for divorce
https://archive.ph/qp0Nl

or baking fish in their NGO-provided "Fempartment" in Lvov while dying their hair fuscia.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/1/10/the-feminist-community-emerging-from-the-war-in-ukraine

But don't worry, the Tech people, like the 22-gay guy that draw LGTBQ+ friendly Dinosaurs for PBS kids shows for a subcontractor, is immune from the draft. He's a Fortunate Son. But Roman the truck driver, 38 with 3 kids, got pulled out of his truck and sent.

AmericanKulak says

They're ass shakin' for foreign workers in Kiev
https://www.nytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x62d2lljsciiyd.onion/2022/07/26/world/asia/kyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html

Broken link, @AmericanKulak

UkraineIsFucked says

Broken link, AmericanKulak

Shit, I only open the NYT via Brave Tor/Onion. Definitely don't have the link anymore. But we all know that most of the fled Ukie women broke up with their boyfriends/husbands and many are booty shakin' for eurobucks.

UkraineIsFucked says

AmericanKulak says

They're ass shakin' for foreign workers in Kiev
https://www.nytimesn7cgmftshazwhfgzm37qxb44r64ytbb2dj3x62d2lljsciiyd.onion/2022/07/26/world/asia/kyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html

Broken link, AmericanKulak

@UkraineIsFucked and @AmericanKulak

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/26/world/asia/kyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html

I found it by doing a search on: "world/asia/kyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html" in brave:

https://search.brave.com/search?q=world%2Fasia%2Fkyiv-ukraine-war-nightlife.html&source=desktop

When you use a functioning search engine, any 6 words strung together is either unique, or a quote. Google has been breaking this, as has been Yahoo! (before Google certainly) for a long time. It USED to be I could find my own quotes by just typing out what I said.

Brave sucks for now, but it's getting better. Yandex is better than Google now, and I've migrated to it for nearly everything.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Yo Ukie Nazi Fluffers of PatNet!

Why the fuck should we care about Ukraine when Ukrainians themselves won't fight for it?

Here it comes: RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA!

But how do you jive this with the bullshit you post that Russia is too incompetent to fight this war?

Ppl don't pay 10k euro bribes to avoid Russians who can't shoot straight, after all.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Yo Ukie Nazi Fluffers of PatNet!

Why the fuck should we care about Ukraine when Ukrainians themselves won't fight for it?

Here it comes: RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA!

But how do you jive this with the bullshit you post that Russia is too incompetent to fight this war?

Ppl don't pay 10k euro bribes to avoid Russians who can't shoot straight, after all.

Not sure who you're talking about. Every war has men flee because the women flee. Russia is the aggressor so Russian women are just fine, but a lot of Russians are dying as well. Both sides have lost more than we did in 20 years in 2 wars recently. I'd pay to leave Ukraine. Don't blame them. Some of them do believe the fight is worth it. We have years of this. It has already been a decade before the "special military operations" announcement 2 years ago. Putin wanted Ukraine from the beginning but played the long game.

There will be another major conflict that distracts Russia before November. Rarely if ever has a wartime POTUS lost. This is the 2020 covid with this cycle. They'll cut funding to Ukraine at some point, but fund some other proxy war. Get your popcorn ready. This is a known playbook.

WookieMan says

Some of them do believe the fight is worth it.

The brainwashed that don't realize the fight is hopeless. There is no point in entering a fight when you have no hope of winning.

WookieMan says

Putin wanted Ukraine from the beginning but played the long game.

Russia won't absorb Ukraine. That's just US propaganda. They will probably take over the Donbas or allow them to become "independent" which is what they wanted from the start.

WookieMan says

There will be another major conflict that distracts Russia before November. Rarely if ever has a wartime POTUS lost. This is the 2020 covid with this cycle. They'll cut funding to Ukraine at some point, but fund some other proxy war. Get your popcorn ready. This is a known playbook.

I doubt there will be another major conflict. Kazakhstan fizzled out quick and I don't think any other nation is eager to get destroyed either. I think part of the reason that Ukraine is in a slow grind to the death is Russia is warning other nations not to become US proxies. There isn't enough time to create another major conflict, it took years to get Ukraine going off.

I think the US finally bit off more than it could chew. That might be the reason that Victoria Nuland was FINALLY fired. This is a conflict that the US is going to definitely lose, and it's another nail in the coffin for our propaganda system. They spent years claiming that Ukraine was just on the cusp of winning. They did the same with Afghanistan and Syria, but people weren't convinced to put up flags of those countries in their stupid social media posts.