patrick.net

Honest Abe says

Troy, what part of the constitution authorizes forcing people to buy health insurance or force them to pay a penalty if they don’t ???

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Troy says

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

Does "lay and collect taxes" translate in your mind into the government FORCING its citizens to BUY from a PRIVATE entity, in this case, private insurance companies? And if they don't buy this private policy, they will be penalized with a monetary fine?

RayAmerica says

Troy says

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

Does “lay and collect taxes” translate in your mind into the government FORCING its citizens to BUY from a PRIVATE entity, in this case, private insurance companies? And if they don’t buy this private policy, they will be penalized with a monetary fine?

The gummint isn't forcing me to buy insurance any more than it is forcing me to take out a home mortgage or have kids, both of which would reduce my income tax.

Stop using words that don't mean what you're trying to say.

^ you can pay for health insurance (which I already do to Blue Shield ANYWAY) or you get the privilege of paying more taxes to the government.

This is to encourage people to cover themselves and not rely on public charity when they need medical services. It is very much a conservative Republican approach to the public health problem -- it's what the Republicans proposed in 1993 in opposition to HillaryCare, it's what the Heritage Foundation (!) mooted in the last decade, and it's what RomneyCare is.

I understand it's not libertarian, but guess what, this is not a libertarian state.

rich_wicks says

Why don’t you people start using the internet for more than just surfing for porn and downloading movies illegally?

Thanks for asking. The reason is that surfing for porn & illegally downloading movies is much more fun than many other past times, such as answering asinine rhetorical questions posted on interweb forums. We still manage to work the other stuff in, though.

Nomograph says

Just get in line behind that nice Mexican family with 12 screaming kids.

Wrong AGAIN. I counted 13.

Nomograph says

Big brother will take care of you, RayRay.

Isn't Big Brother wonderful? I'm so glad we have a Ministry of Plenty.

Nomo - what PROOF do you have that (1) Ray America is a "low-performing" person? and (2) that he "takes SO MUCH MORE FROM SOCIETY THAN HE PRODUCES"??

Or could it be just more personal attacks - as usual. Please put up or shut up.

Honest Abe says

Nomo - what PROOF do you have that (1) Ray America is a “low-performing” person? and (2) that he “takes SO MUCH MORE FROM SOCIETY THAN HE PRODUCES”??
Or could it be just more personal attacks - as usual. Please put up or shut up.

Read his posts. Read your posts. You're angry and constantly fighting against those who disagree with you. If you feel this strongly, why don't you pay the money to start your own forum about how horrible people with political views that are different than yours are? Maybe you two (or more) could split the money - but that would be sharing and bordering on socialism.

Nomograph says

I’m just throwing his own insulting style right back at him. It’s pretty repulsive, isn’t it?

Be specific and quote the exact insults I've used on you. Don't hold your breath folks.

Abe .... that's all Nomo & ellie have. Ever notice they NEVER address any issues we bring up? I wonder why? Could it be they can't? That's why they always use insults and lies. It's right out of Saul Alinsky.

RayAmerica says

Ever notice they NEVER address any issues we bring up? I wonder why?

It's because you never raise any worthwhile issues. But at least you've learned how to spell "Saul Alinsky."
elliemae says

You’re angry and constantly fighting against those who disagree with you. If you feel this strongly, why don’t you pay the money to start your own forum about how horrible people with political views that are different than yours are?

Really, why fight the man when you could be one?

Did you guys notice that most people don't respond to you - that the only ones who do are those of us who are screwing with you?

Without us you'd be lonely.

tatupu70 says

Abe–
Where in the Constitution does it say you can post inane questions on Internet message boards?

Typical reply by the left when they can't answer a simple question.

RayAmerica says

tatupu70 says

Abe–
Where in the Constitution does it say you can post inane questions on Internet message boards?

Typical reply by the left when they can’t answer a simple question.

You're still here?

elliemae says

It’s because you never raise any worthwhile issues.

Another gem from the genius that posts such serious and worthwhile issues such as "I'm here for you, Brad Pitt." Or how about "Lawyer sues to get coat back." Deep, very deep. Thanks for playing Little ellie. LOL

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

It’s because you never raise any worthwhile issues.

Another gem from the genius that posts such serious and worthwhile issues such as “I’m here for you, Brad Pitt.” Or how about “Lawyer sues to get coat back.” Deep, very deep. Thanks for playing Little ellie. LOL

I'm pleased that you follow all my posts so closely. Makes me feel warm & fuzzy.

The Wall Street Journal reports: "As ranks of uninusured expand, nation faces shortage of 150,000 doctors in 15 years. Hahaha - I told you so.

My guess is that it'll be far worse than that. More doctors will retire sooner due to red tape, government interference, endless "forms" to fill in etc, etc, etc. And becoming a doctor will have less appeal for many of the same reasons. Rationed care at its worst is what is on the horizon in the United States of Utopia - comrade, hahaha. I told you so.

Honest Abe says

My guess is that it’ll be far worse than that. More doctors will retire sooner due to red tape, government interference, endless “forms” to fill in etc, etc, etc. And becoming a doctor will have less appeal for many of the same reasons. Rationed care at its worst is what is on the horizon in the United States of Utopia - comrade, hahaha. I told you so.

Not sure you can say I told you so before the fact....

How about cause and effect. How about unintended consequences. These are things liberal, progressive, socialistic, do-gooder democrats never think or care about. They only care about "GOOD INTENTIONS" Unfortunately they never care about the outcome or results. Its called The Tyranny of Good Intentions, comrade.

"Yet America keeps on keeping on". Are you implying every thing's okay ?? I don't know if the tens of MILLIONS of unemployed, and the tens of MILLIONS of underemployed, and the tens of MILLIONS who've had their equity, savings and retirement wiped out, and the tens of MILLIONS who are upset that a big, bloated, non-responsive government is deficit spending them, their children and their grandchildren into oblivion, would agree with you.

Honest Abe says

“Yet America keeps on keeping on”. Are you implying every thing’s okay ?? I don’t know if the tens of MILLIONS of unemployed, and the tens of MILLIONS of underemployed, and the tens of MILLIONS who’ve had their equity, savings and retirement wiped out, and the tens of MILLIONS who are upset that a big, bloated, non-responsive government is deficit spending them, their children and their grandchildren into oblivion, would agree with you.

So are you implying that it's the government's responsibility to make sure everything is OK for everybody? That sounds awfully socialist to me. Are you afraid of freedom?

Hahaha, none of you lib's, with your personality disorder's, will ever admit that the problems I stated above are CAUSED by government. Hahaha.

"I have observed that the liberal agenda's invasive social policies foster economic irresponsibility, pathological dependency and social conflict." Quote from a doctor who has studied mental disorders for 40 years.

Are liberals out of their minds? Apparently the answer is YES. Perhaps thats why they refuse to acknowledge simple concepts like: If you drastically expand the money supply - price's increase. Constantly spending more money than you have will cause financial stress, ultimately bankrupcy. Debasing your own currency will lead to economic problems. Gold does have value. 2 + 2 = 4

Honest Abe says

2 + 2 = 4

Your math is wrong. In Oceania, 2 + 2 = 5. You wouldn't want to confuse Nomo now would you?

RayAmerica says

Almost the entire “healthcare” system we have is a rigged game. Instead of being involved in teaching people about prevention (not much money in that), our system simply repairs the abuse Americans inflict on their own bodies. I’ve seen studies that indicate that up to 70% of all disease and health problems are directly related to lifestyle, i.e. poor eating & drinking habits, lack of exercise, smoking, overweight, etc. The system the government is attempting to force all of us into does not address the problem of individuals abusing themselves, nor does it reward those that strive to live a healthy life. What’s wrong with this picture?

I work for a company which choose to address exactly that this year.
Simply put we no longer have a copay, but we have a deductible of 800 per year for employee only coverage. We do still pay a bi-weekly contribution, but 90% of it is also subsidized.
During the course of the year, we are given opportunities to learn and do something for our health: attend fitness seminars over 6weeks, do fitness challenges, visit the gym and track the fitness. Each activity successful completion is measured and if achieved you are set a side a certain dollar amount into account. For example 6 weeks counseling on better eating is $100 worth. All together you may earn $800 i.e. exact amount that covers the cost of your deductible.

The healthy most likely will do the programs and earn the money, but never use it. (They are transferable over years, but you lose them if you leave the company). Still a benefit, at minimum their health is better and they know more
The unhealthy ones, have an opportunity to recapture the cost of their care up to deductible. Rest if any outpocket needed they are paying for their earlier carelessness.

do I not like it? Yes I do not. I do not think the healthy ones got rewarded. I think we were all given similar opportunities.

I am sure company will use results somehow to say (we cannot tell you specifically who) but on average that many improved their health, hence premium for the company is less.

Funny though, If I was given real dollars, lets say $15 each time I am at the gym. I think I would be there more often. I would find time in a flash.

The modern liberal agenda with its welfare state, and invasive government regulations undermines the foundations of freedom, social order and adult cooperation. The socialist, collectivist agenda is founded on fundamental misconceptions of human nature and human freedom. It misconcieves the social nature of man. It misconcieves the development of adult competence and personal sovereigenty. It misconcieves the independent nature of how adults interact with each other in economic and social realms. These misconceptions result in policies destructive to freedom and social order.

Governments always declare their purposes to be the protection of the peoples rights and the maintainence social order. But even with the best INTENTIONS, government routinely violate the rights of society and disorganize the order they are assigned to protect. You might call that "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

The larger government becomes, the more government strips and eliminates peoples freedoms, disrupts social order, and causes economic havoc. All for "beneficial" reasons, and for the "common good". Just ask any of our numerous "Czar's" - they'll tell you, comrade. Now get back to work, others are depending on the fruits of your labor.

Honest Abe says

The modern liberal agenda with its welfare state, and invasive government regulations undermines the foundations of freedom, social order and adult cooperation. The socialist, collectivist agenda is founded on fundamental misconceptions of human nature and human freedom. It misconcieves the social nature of man. It misconcieves the development of adult competence and personal sovereigenty. It misconcieves the independent nature of how adults interact with each other in economic and social realms. These misconceptions result in policies destructive to freedom and social order.

No one is stopping you from leaving the country. In fact, we encourage it.

Wow, you bought a thesaurus? Good for you.

Now, let's work on sentence structure and the ability to formulate coherent thoughts.

Thesaurus? Sentence structure? Haha, "any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions", or make logical conclusions for that matter. Liberals, like you, have no logic - only "feelings", which are disruptive to social order and freedom.

elliemae says

Now, let’s work on sentence structure and the ability to formulate coherent thoughts.

This is beginning to sound like a broken record. Do ever have anything else to contribute Ms. "I never ever insult anyone" elliemae?

Abe, Rayray, ya'll constantly attack anyone who disagrees with you and are incredibly rude. You certainly don't contribute to the conversation in a positive way.

Honest Abe says

Any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions, cope with the challenges of everyday life or make intelligent on-line posts.

RayAmerica says

Typical reply by the left when they can’t answer a simple question.

The answer to your question as to whether I ever have anything else to contribute is yes. Unfortunately, when it comes to answering your asinine comments there really isn't much else to say. I've said it before, and shall say it again, "Spirited discourse is encouraged. Mean-spirited discourse is not."

Your comments consistently fall into the latter category, and as such you shouldn't expect us not to fuck with you.

For all the avowed good intentions of liberals, socialists, elitists, intellectuals, democrats, tree huggers and do-gooders, the political reality is essentially sociopathic.

The cost of infantilization of people is a broad based crippling of their competetence. The adult children's dependent attachment to government comes at an enormous price. Much of this can be attributed to neurotic and other irrational mental processes as evidenced by envy, jealousy, feelings of inferiority, strivings for power, victimization, domination, revenge, infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence, or obsessive pursuit of contol and regulation.

Any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions, cope with the challenges of everyday life or make intelligent on-line posts.

I know you are, but what am I?

The more you post the same thing, the dumber you appear. You certainly don't "make intelligent on-line posts" when you lack the ability to say something, anything, of substance.

elliemae,

I realized a long time ago that there are certain people in this world who need to keep up their ideologies even in face of facts that contradict their opinions that they regard as "facts." I know it's irrational and even lacks intellectual honesty. These people exist even in my family. I've learned to detach for the most part, when it doesn't concern me directly. When their opinions based on their other opinions that they claim are "facts" which are simply just more opinions affect me directly, I take direct action.

I don't do this on Internet boards like this one, because most the the banter here is meaningless and tends to be for entertainment purposes only. It's not like anything from around here is going to make real change in the political/sociological landscape. Most people here, who come from a certain political persuasion, seem to be spouting off in anger about conspiracy theories of one kind or another whether their theories are based in facts or not.

I take most of what I read here with a huge grain of salt, or perhaps an entire 20 pound salt-lick.

Oh, and I've seen such nasty, illogical, irrational, uninspired, bigoted, and hate inspired rhetoric coming from some of the most prolific posters on the right here that I hesitate to post anything at all. Sometimes the level of discourse here makes me feel like I'd get more enlightenment coming from having a conversation with a turnip.

Hey, simchaland, if you really have read enough of the posts with an un-biased view, you would see that the nasty, illogical, irrational, uninspired, bigoted, and hate inspired rhetoric is not limited to left or right.

I almost forgot, I really, really hate turnips. I think they are dirty and dumb, and deserve their low spot in society.

MCM says

I almost forgot, I really, really hate turnips. I think they are dirty and dumb, and deserve their low spot in society.

Precisely my point, good man. At least you read my post.

If society honors freedom and the rights of individuals, the peoples choices will be shaped by the ideals of individual liberty, self-reliance, personal responsibility, voluntary cooperation and respect for the rights and sovereignty of others.

If, on the other hand, society honors the liberal agenda's principals of coercive collectivism, then the peoples choices will be shaped by ideals of entitlement, welfare dependency, state regulation and the socialization of the major categories of human action.

BTW, "Minds afflicted with severe disorders do not exercise free choice or free will in any ordinary sense of those terms". Dr Rosssiter - The Psychological Cause of Political Madness. In other words, liberals have brain damage.