patrick.net

Wow - this country allows just about anyone to vote even though (per your post) they obviously don't deserve to. Just think - poor people vote for stuff that helps them, captains of industry vote for what helps them, and the politicians are stuck in the middle just trying to keep teir jobs and line their pockets.... everyone is out for themselves.

You've opened my eyes, we're going to hell in a handbasket and it's all because of the wrong people voting.

Such as system existed in Northern Ireland, the point of which was legal discrimination against Catholics, who were unemployed at higher rates than Protestants. Didn't work out so well there. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/landon.htm

I'm kind of shocked that anyone would even propose such a system in the US, which was founded on the idea equal rights for everyone. Yes, even poor people.

Apparently the biggest taxpayers are the ones who decided how low taxes should be, including the unpaid for Bush tax cuts, which is ironically a reason for much higher deficits and much higher taxes for all in the future.

Back when Al Gore ran for president, he talked a lot about a "lock box" for payroll taxes which go toward social security. But Gore lost and this never happened. So this money goes into the pot of money spent now ( and is counted in budget deficit as if it were federal tax receipts ).

So what about someone who pays a significant percent of their income in to payroll taxes, but pay no federal income taxes ? By the way these citizens are the reason for fox news claimed that 50 percent don't pay taxes.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200904160032

.

Oh Patrick, come on - I didn't say "poor people" I said people who don't pay taxes. And I guess Nomo is right in the fact that everyone pays taxes (though not all pay INCOME TAX). So I guess I should have named my topic "VOTING SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR INCOME TAX PAYERS". BTW, that would eliminate the ability of those evil rich business owners who pay NO INCOME TAX from voting !!! See, my system has lots of merits : )

Its kinda ironic that the 'class warfare' party shouts "soak the rich, make them pay their fair share" but goes ahead and raises the alcohol tax, tabacco tax, gas tax, DMV fees (tax), continues the inflation tax, etc, which taxes the very people it claims to protect.

And its not just the Libs (though primarily so), its the Republocrats too. And if we didn't have Obama, what - McCain would be better?

Poor people are the people who don't pay taxes.

I have never read a study on it, but my intuition is that people with life circumstances such that they aren't paying federal income taxes probably fall within the significant group of people who don't vote anyway.

Therefore I agree with Nomograph that it wouldn't make a difference.

So please let me continue my fantasy about American democracy, okay ?

Actually one group in could make a difference with is the young. That is of voting age but in post secondary education phase. And hey, you know the evil influence all of those liberal professors have on college students.

Because it took a long , hard fight to get equal rights for everyone is exactly why we should fight so hard today to keep ALL of our rights. We should not be silent as government slowely strips our rights away, one right at a time. I personally don't want my children or grandchildren living in a "1984" and Animal Farm type world.

Nomograph says

’m kind of shocked that anyone would even propose such a system in the US, which was founded on the idea equal rights for everyone. Yes, even poor people.
Not really. Only male landed taxpayers could vote initially. Poor people, women, and blacks didn’t count. Suffrage slowly expanded to all freemen, then to women and blacks.

Our government was set up as a republic, rather than a democracy. The founding fathers were deeply concerned by the idea of a pure democracy. They wanted only educated land owners to vote. They also placed heavy restrictions on what the voting masses and in turn their government representatives could do by instituting the constitution and bill of rights. We were never supposed to be able to vote ourselves into a welfare/warfare state, for instance.

next you'll purpose that the people who pay more taxes than other taxpayers should have a higher voting power. as to the rich who don't pay taxes, wouldn't they just start to pay the minimum amount of tax required to vote (or whatever crazy criteria you decide it should be)?

people do whatever it takes for their own interest. yes the poor vote on things that help them and the rich vote for things that help them. but the idea of the system that we have now is that if everyone can vote the outcome with be neutralized such that we get that which is acceptable by everyone.

Why is income tax special? As opposed to FICA, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, too numerous to count government fees, state income taxes, property taxes (included in rents), etc., etc..

I'd be happy if they just moved voting day to April 15th!

Economically literate people understand that government spending is really taxpayer spending. Therefore taxpayers should be the ones who decide how to spend the money, if at all. As a result voting should be restricted to those who pay taxes.

Who are all of these people that you believe do not pay taxes? Your proposal would eliminate almost nobody at the local level and slightly fewer at the federal level.

There probably are a small number of people who don't pay any taxes, but those aren't the people who are abusing government spending.

Non-taxpayers will ALWAYS vote for the politician who offer the most hand-outs…won’t they?

The very few people who don't pay any taxes are highly unlikely to be able to vote, since you're pretty much talking about illegal immigrants, prisoners, and the poorest of the poor who traditionally never show up.

Non-taxpayers have no skin in the game…do they?

Other than their lives...

Non-taxpayers will NEVER vote for policies which help fix America’s problems, if it means less to them…will they?

Again, who are these people? Do you really believe that there's some army of people out there who:

1. Actively vote
2. Are unemployed
3. Are informed enough to know what the politician's policies are

Or are you just counting everyone who pays less in taxes than you think you do as "doesn't pay taxes?"

Economically illerate people understand that taxes reduce the available pool of (1) savings and (2) investment capital.

Interesting slip...

A country with “savers” is and indication of a stable country, as opposed to an unstable country.

China is a country of "savers". Lets be more like China, where the government keeps their hands out of business and personal lives!

And investment capital is what allows businesses to open or expand.

That's actually accurate, though of course the majority of investment capital doesn't come from people like you and me.

Samll businesses account for about 95% of the jobs in America.

By "small business" are you actually using the number for all private businesses (which is actually 90%, not 95%), or are you talking out of your ass?

The best figures that I can find online indicate that about half of all people work for what can be considered "small businesses" (as defined by the SBA and the federal government)

And why is it when a city, state, or even the Federal Government wants to stimulate jobs the first thing they offer is tax breaks ? (BTW it can’t work BOTH ways).

That's not always the "first thing". It's what they do when they think it's what is needed. More often than not job stimulus is done through jobs programs and public works programs, particularly at the local level. Tax breaks are applied selectively in cases where it would be a strong motivator or to promote a favored policy. Straight-cash breaks (i.e. refunds) are done by stupid politicians who ignore that they've never worked in the past.

And while I’m at it, why have we allowed politicians to pass laws to which THEY are NOT subject to ????? Or is it that: “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”.

Which laws are you referring to? I completely agree that politicians should be subject to the laws that they pass or support -- now please tell me which laws they are not subject to.

More Doublespeak = Government spending means taxpayer spending

Well, no. Government spending means government spending. Government happens to get a majority of its money from taxes but not all of it.

Department of War means Defense Department

That's only really been true in recent times. The term "Defense" wasn't intended to be deceptive when it was created, it was actually the goal to be a purely defensive military.

Evil Capitalists means small business owners who provide jobs

I'm 100% positive that when people say "Evil Capitalists" (and are being serious about it), they're talking about the kinds of people who have given us the S&L scandal, Enron, credit default swaps, and the BP oil spill. I have never heard any honest person referring to a small business owner as an "Evil Capitalist".

OK kiddies - time to wake up, this is going on all around you, but many either ignore it, or even worse, support it.

Thanks Glenn!

Honest Abe says

We should not be silent as government slowely strips our rights away, one right at a time

Except for the right to vote, right?

Even poor people pay taxes. If they buy anything they pay sales tax in most locales even for food in some places. If they work at all, they pay payroll taxes even if they end up paying no income taxes. If they own a car (some poor folks do) they pay taxes on buying gas, registration for plates, and drivers licensing fees. If they have an apartment they rent, they pay property taxes through their rent paid to landlords. Then they pay taxes on all utilities used in that apartment. If they have a mobile phone (and many poor homeless people do) they pay taxes on the service and the purchase of the phone.

As a matter of fact, I'd be hard pressed to find anyone living in the USA who pays no taxes. Such a person would have to grow his/her own food, have no income from labor, pay no rent at all, buy nothing from any store, make all of his/her own clothes or get them from churches or other hand outs, have no car, have no mobile phone, and never ever get fined for sleeping on the street or get any other "nuisance" tickets that are issued to homeless persons in most jurisdictions in the country.

That's a tall order.

It's simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don't pay taxes. They may not pay income taxes, but they sure pay taxes on everything else if they participate at all in our economy whether they pay directly or indirectly. I really can't imagine a case where anyone in the USA doesn't pay any taxes unless they are part of some survivalist group in Montana or part of a clan in the Appalachians. Even in those cases, it would be very difficult to avoid the US, State, or local tax man completely.

Therefore, everyone over 18 has the right to vote even in this silly fictional scenario dreamed up by Fox Noise.

Ignorant, economically and financially illerate is no way to go through life. Constantly rooting for and supporting the wrong causes makes America weaker and more vulnerable.
You say "Its simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don't pay taxes". Yet news headlines all over the place, read like this : Nearly half of U.S. households pay zero Federal Income tax. Here are a variety of sources:

MSNBC.com 4-7-2010
USATODAY.com 4-7-2010
YahooFinance.com 4-5-2010
Tax Foundation.org 3-30 2010
CBSNEWS.com 4-15-2010
ETC.

The sources and content are not the "silly fictional scenario's dreamed up by Fox Noise"...as you call it. Turn off your TV and start reading !!!

yes, but again,...payroll taxes are spent now, not saved for your retirement. They are not considered part of "federal income taxes," but they are withheld the same way, paid on april 15th the same way, and spent and considered part of this years deficit the same way as federal income taxes.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200904160032

I don't know if I'm more shocked that someone would post that question, or at people debating it.

Then America would be practicing "Feudalism", what catchy name would you name the goon squads to keep the Pissants playing nice.

Tenouncetrout says

I don’t know if I’m more shocked that someone would post that question, or at people debating it.

It's easier to post this ridiculous question than to openly state that he's a racist separatist who hates people who aren't like him.

OK, ALL voting should be reserved for taxpayers... those who pay Federal Income Tax. (Bad spellers of the world - UNTIE).

So - if we as a country "save" everyone from being unhappy, from being without, from being poor, from feeling left out of the American Dream, and give everyone everything they need at all times, BUT sink the country in the process - is that a good thing, or no?

Sheeeesh ! We've been around this too many times.

The people who don't pay taxes ( other than students ) have no significant effect on elections. Maybe this last time the election for president might have been effected a little more than usual by the votes of the disenfranchised, but that wasn't just because Obama is black, it's also because of the idiot we had last time ( maybe not quite as stupid as he seemed, just as Obama might not be quite as smart as he seems ).

I guess it could be argued that if the trend of recent decades continues and the wealth of our country becomes even more concentrated at the top, and while demographics continue to shift and whites become a minority ( but not a minority of the wealthy ), that it would certainly benefit the wealthy if only those who paid a lot in taxes could vote.

But as others have said, this would be the end of America as we know it, and not in a good way. The things you are afraid of are well protected as long as at least a significant majority can have a middle class life or better ( and no, I don't mean for free).

Honest Abe says

So - if we as a country “save” everyone from being unhappy, from being without, from being poor

Are you talking about the banks ?

Bankers do much more than vote. They spend tens of millions on lobbyists, maybe hundreds of millions on politicians.

IF you really want to change the US for the better, try to figure out how to turn that around, not to mention the advertising money that we will now see corporations spend on elections. Those forces are much more insidious than the ones you fear.

It's so insane as I really think about it. Are you for real ? Here in America, you are voicing fear of the influence of the poor ! I literally am laughing out loud as I contemplate the absurdity of it.

Honest Abe says

You say “Its simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don’t pay taxes”. Yet news headlines all over the place, read like this : Nearly half of U.S. households pay zero Federal Income tax.

You are the one who keeps saying "taxes" and "taxpayer" when you mean federal income tax only. If you don't know the difference then I certainly hope you aren't voting. I missed your response to my question. What is special about federal income tax vs all other taxes paid?

Nomograph says
Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.

But they all rushed to the polls for Obama. I wonder why. Probably the same reason why all dogs would rush to the polls if Snoopy were to run for president.

Vain says

Honest Abe says
Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.

But they all rushed to the polls for Obama. I wonder why. Probably the same reason why all dogs would rush to the polls if Snoopy were to run for president.

Lovely sentiment.

Just as an fyi--go to "real" America, as Palin calls it. The rural Midwest. You'll see a lot of people on welfare, but their drug of choice is meth, not crack. And they all vote Republican.

I did not make the comment: "Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats - blah-blah-blah". That was someone else, NOT "Honest Abe".

So if we sink the country in an attempt to achieve Utopia for everyone, is that a good thing - or not?

Taxes and spending isn't what is doing this country in.

It's Greed, and vague laws and codes, where the most rigidly worded rules need be and fully enforced to the letter. I'm thinking 5 word phrases instead of 3000 page documents, is the only thing that could save this country.

You don't really think it took 3000 pages to craft the "Healthcare Reform" do you?
Those other 2800 pages were stipulations and loopholes for the corporations that spent enough to have lobbyist help them create that 3000 page legislation. That nobody ever read.

The poor have always been the Blight, the super rich like to demonize and call the ails of society.
When in reality corupt companies and government officials siphon of 10X more than they spend on the poor. For every $1 that makes into a Crackhead Welfare recipient. Some fat greedy bastard skimmed 10K off the tax roll, for $1,000 screws.

Its spending that is putting our country into the hole. I heard over the weekend that if EVERYTHING IN AMERICA WAS SOLD, and we taxed EVERYONE AT 100% - America still wouldn't have enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities and promises made by our pandering politicians.

Why do you suppose "the government" allowed those other 2,800 pages of stipulations and loopholes? What did they get out of it?

And can anyone really strengthen the poor by weakening the rich? Why punish success and reward failure? In the real world there are work horses and there are race horses. Darn it !! Some slim greedy bastard race horse skimmed $10K off the winnings while the work horse got nothing but oats. DAMN - ITS JUST NOT FAIR.

Most self adjusted adults realize that the world is not "fair". Some are smart, some are athletic, some are clever, some are inventors, some are business people, everyone is not the same and their incomes will not be the same. Utopia is an unrealistic goal. Especially when the quest of Utopia puts everyone at risk with the end result being EQUAL suffering. No thank you.

Honest Abe says

Its spending that is putting our country into the hole. I heard over the weekend that if EVERYTHING IN AMERICA WAS SOLD, and we taxed EVERYONE AT 100% - America still wouldn’t have enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities and promises made by our pandering politicians.

You must have heard that on AM radio. Because it's utterly ridiculous.

Honest Abe says

And can anyone really strengthen the poor by weakening the rich? Why punish success and reward failure? In the real world there are work horses and there are race horses. Darn it !! Some slim greedy bastard race horse skimmed $10K off the winnings while the work horse got nothing but oats. DAMN - ITS JUST NOT FAIR.
Most self adjusted adults realize that the world is not “fair”. Some are smart, some are athletic, some are clever, some are inventors, some are business people, everyone is not the same and their incomes will not be the same. Utopia is an unrealistic goal. Especially when the quest of Utopia puts everyone at risk with the end result being EQUAL suffering. No thank you.

You're missing the point. I don't care about fair. I don't care about Utopia. I care about the US being a strong, vibrant economy. And that doesn't happen when 0.5% of the people hold 80%+ of the wealth.

Honest Abe says

I did not make the comment: “Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats - blah-blah-blah”. That was someone else, NOT “Honest Abe”.
So if we sink the country in an attempt to achieve Utopia for everyone, is that a good thing - or not?

Sorry honestabe. I corrected the quote. I messed it up while editing.

Vain, thanks.

Tatupu, you're right. And its the governments fault. May I explain why? Its government that should be regulated. Private business and people are regulated way too much already. Too much regulation KILLS COMPETITION. There are more than 100 Federal Regulatory agencies that have produced 73,000 pages of regulations - not including those set by state and local governments.

If government got out of the way, business could flourish again. For example: try getting a permit to operate a taxi cab (business) in New York City or a liquor license in downtown LA. The lack of availability and or the exorbitant cost eliminate most people seeking those opportunities. Competition is eliminated and wealth concentrates with those lucky enough to already have the licenses. Government is the reason wealth gets concentrated - which is why government should be regulated.

Honest Abe says

Ignorant, economically and financially illerate is no way to go through life. Constantly rooting for and supporting the wrong causes makes America weaker and more vulnerable.
You say “Its simply not honest to claim that 50% of Americans don’t pay taxes”. Yet news headlines all over the place, read like this : Nearly half of U.S. households pay zero Federal Income tax. Here are a variety of sources:
MSNBC.com 4-7-2010
USATODAY.com 4-7-2010
YahooFinance.com 4-5-2010
Tax Foundation.org 3-30 2010
CBSNEWS.com 4-15-2010
ETC.
The sources and content are not the “silly fictional scenario’s dreamed up by Fox Noise”…as you call it. Turn off your TV and start reading !!!

Oh, so you're only talking about Federal Income Taxes. Well you really should have specified what you meant by your exclusive definition of "taxpayer" since there are scads more taxes than Federal Income Tax. A whole bunch of fat cat rich people don't pay Federal Income Taxes either by keeping their losses here to deduct from their income and exporting their gains to foreign countries that don't tax their incomes to avoid paying taxes like a patriotic American citizen should. So don't just fault the poor who make too little to pay income taxes. I'm sure they'd trade places with the fat cats who use all the loop holes and who send their wealth earned here to foreign countries where it won't benefit anyone in the USA so they don't have to pay Federal Income Taxes.

Honest Abe says

Tatupu, you’re right. And its the governments fault. May I explain why? Its government that should be regulated. Private business and people are regulated way too much already. Too much regulation KILLS COMPETITION. There are more than 100 Federal Regulatory agencies that have produced 73,000 pages of regulations - not including those set by state and local governments.

How does government regulation of business lead to a concentration of wealth?

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

ALL voting should be reserved for taxpayers… those who pay Federal Income Tax.

First, he wants to give the federal government control over the gold market. Now he advocates taking jurisdiction over suffrage away from the states and give that power to the federal government.
Just how big does this guy want the federal government to be?

Yeah, he sounds like one of those "liberals" who wants to kill "States' Rights" and enslave us all under a "Big Bad Federal Government."

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

voting should be restricted to those who pay taxes.

I agree in principle. Someone who is neither landed nor a tax payer is not vested. People who are vested in society make much more prudent decisions than those who are not vested.
However, almost everyone who votes pays taxes, so Abe’s quibbling is for naught. Those crack-smoking welfare-momma hood rats generally don’t vote. They aren’t even registered, nor do they have any idea whatsoever about what candidate is promising to give who what.
It really won’t make a difference.

excellant post .... and this is probably why ACORN was founded (?)

Nomo - your post at 6:40 pm has my position mis-stated. I NEVER said I wanted to give the federal gov't contol over the gold market. And I NEVER said I advocated taking jurisdiction over sufferage away from the states and give that power to the federal goverment.

Government regulation eliminates competition by erecting barriers to entry, remember my examples of how difficult and expensive it is to get a liquor license in LA or a taxi cab license permit in New York City? Over time wealth gets concentrated in all types of business and industries (and the people who own them) due to government regulation and manipulation of the free market. Government intervention always distorts the market and as an indirect result the distribution of wealth gets distorted too.

I don't think Abe really advocates his thesis about voter's rights, it's just a way to rant about how he thinks this country is being destroyed by people who have no economic sense about the cost of what we want from government versus what taxpayers pay.

Also a way to bash liberals, that is, it's all part of a very vague way of justifying his feelings about who is at fault for everything that doesn't work in the U.S.. He occasionally acknowledges that there are flaws in government that aren't caused liberals who want "Utopia for everyone."

Marcus and Nomo, I used to have a hard time understanding liberal, progressive, do-gooder mentality, or what ever you call it. I have included a quote below that helped me understand your "logic". Now I understand the causes of your flawed logic.

In case you've never noticed, government has had an incomparable record of flawed analysis, failed solutions and destructive consequences. Yet liberals and liberal government proclaims itself as indispensable and presumes to regulate and administer our lives and economy, always for the worse. Government overestimation and extravagance, impaired judgement, distortions of fact, misunderstanding of cause and effect and resistance to learning from experience has put America at great risk. Except liberals think things are "just fine".

Here is why: "Liberals and liberal government is a study in the psychopathology and sociopathology of human nature. Liberal mentality and liberal government offers a standing invitation to ignore the realistic assessment of risk and the consequences of irrational decisions. The liberal agenda thrives on the dependency of people and encourages them to remain childlike and compliant, heedless to the implications of distorted thinking". The Psychological Causes of Political Madness, by Lyle Rossiter, M.D.

Now I understand.

Abe--

No offense, but can you argue your case without using strawmen? Because most posters here are intelligent enough to see right through them....

It doesn't matter who gets to vote if your the results of voting do not matter. Even if McCain won, I bet we would still be in the same pickle as we find ourselves today; we just have a different colored talking head to put a face on the problems we are facing.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Even if voting did matter, the sheeple are so asleep that the vote can easily be rigged with voting machines. And even when the scandal broke out, nary a whimper from the sheeple, even with the numerous people trying to put the word out about voting machines and their fairly easy hackability.

The sheeple are too easily distracted and divided on trivial "hot button" issues, race (e.g. illegal immigration), religion (e.g. abortion), and who gets the right to vote.

Stop debating the issue. It is pointless.