patrick.net

tatupu70 says

Do you think a 4ft. high wall would stop illegal immigration? And, how much do you think it would cost to build such a wall?

10 ft or 20 ft high... 4 ft thick or 7 ft thick... pick a number!

bob2356 says

Under the Posse Comitatus Act, federal troops are prohibited from performing law enforcement actions, such as making arrests, seizing property or searching people. National guard troops may be called up under the Insurrection act during times of emergency but must be under the state control. Stopping illegal aliens unless they have organized themselves into a military unit is clearly a law enforcement function. This is high school level American Government stuff

Prohibited in "non-federal property and jurisdiction", so is it a "state border" or the "US federal goverment border". Who has jurisdiction for the border State or Federal ? Do you need permission from the state or federal goverment to cross it ?

Pretty pathatic Bob! do you really expect illegals to walk across the border even though they know they are being observed at eye shot by guards and patrols. Deterence, gotta love it.

thomas.wong1986 says

tatupu70 says

Do you think a 4ft. high wall would stop illegal immigration? And, how much do you think it would cost to build such a wall?

10 ft or 20 ft high… 4 ft thick or 7 ft thick… pick a number!

I think it's a useless endeavor, and a huge waste of money. You have to go after the companies that hire illegals.

tatupu70 says

I think it’s a useless endeavor, and a huge waste of money. You have to go after the companies that hire illegals.

Defeatism!

OK, little anecdote:

Wife's best friend is all full of herself. She hasn't made a dime for herself in 10 years, keeps her husband's paycheck and give's him an allowance. She spends everthing on her pet child, fixing her too expensive house and dumps about 20k/yr into a boutique for expensive hand-made kiddie clothes. Never made a dime, but some day she plans on having a dozen.

One night I started bitching about my job, and how my woman keeps me poor, and how I would've been retired by now save the need to keep up with, well with bitches like her. She blames me, and tells me that its my fault that I keep a job I don't want. "I'd never be in that situation. I'd find something."

Fast forward 4 years, husband and his 150k/yr is gone, retirement stock is in the toilet, house is 50k underwater, boutique is closed, and she can't even get an interview let alone an offer. believe it or not, because you "designed" your own web page you can't get a job as web designer. If you've never worked in retail you may not get a job as a store manager. And if you're not young 20s with a nice rack, you may not be able to go back to bartending.

Long story short, she has been out of the work force for 10 years and had no idea what has happened. She really did believe that 50k (she could settle for that) was the new minimum wage for ANYONE with no skills and a positive attitude. Its fun to watch. I'm still waiting to pull the trigger on "I told you so" but right now I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Oh, by the way, she blames the Democrats and Obama.

thomas.wong1986 says

tatupu70 says

I think it’s a useless endeavor, and a huge waste of money. You have to go after the companies that hire illegals.

Defeatism!

realism

knewbetter says

Oh, by the way, she blames the Democrats and Obama.

It's much easier to blame our president than to accept personal responsibility. She's a model teabagger.

who is it that has been blaming Bush .... hmmmm ... Barry and Co. ... right?

elliemae says

knewbetter says

Oh, by the way, she blames the Democrats and Obama.

It’s much easier to blame our president than to accept personal responsibility. She’s a model teabagger.

I'm completely in favor of what the teaparty movement is trying to do, but where is the money going to come from? Ask a teabagger about ending entitlements an all that can be heard is how we should end the EPA and Department of Education. My parents are both boomers, and if you ask my mother about raising the retirement age (she's 61 1/2) she says it wouldn't be fair, and if you ask my dad about ending the prescription drug benefit, his response is people need those drugs. Ask about cutting the millitary, veteran's benefits, making medicare pay the same rates as private insurance, or a host of other things and it always comes back to crack moms on welfare, or construction workers looking into a hole in the ground. Still, everybody's pissed that Obama didn't increase the COLA this year.

Here's a neat web page I just found: http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

thomas.wong1986 says

bob2356 says

Under the Posse Comitatus Act, federal troops are prohibited from performing law enforcement actions, such as making arrests, seizing property or searching people. National guard troops may be called up under the Insurrection act during times of emergency but must be under the state control. Stopping illegal aliens unless they have organized themselves into a military unit is clearly a law enforcement function. This is high school level American Government stuff

Prohibited in “non-federal property and jurisdiction”, so is it a “state border” or the “US federal goverment border”. Who has jurisdiction for the border State or Federal ? Do you need permission from the state or federal goverment to cross it ?
Pretty pathatic Bob! do you really expect illegals to walk across the border even though they know they are being observed at eye shot by guards and patrols. Deterence, gotta love it.

That's just stupid. The definition of federal property is clear. Why is it the right wingnuts will defend the law of the land to the death, EXCEPT any part that they disagree with? My questions stands. Why not deter by eliminating the reason for illegals to come over in the first place? If we fined companies enough for hiring illegals it could be a deficit reduction plan.

knewb:

most people want to cut programs, just not the ones that benefit them.

> Have you ever actually been to the southwest? The boarder is 2000 miles of almost
> unpopulated desert. What practical suggestions would you have to actually close
> it “TIGHT”? You can drive the 500 miles from El Paso to Del Rio and see maybe 5 other cars > on the road once you leave I10, how do you get enough people into the area to actually
> patrol that?

This is truly funny, it looks the US technology (incl. military technology) is in the 21st century except wrto border control where it is in the 21st century BC (apprehension of crossers by running after them, manually grabbing, holding, and dragging over to expel).

I was born in Russia, and the ~22,000 mile (not 2,000 mile) borders of the Soviet bloc (aka the "iron curtain"), including those over high deserts, seas and lakes, wild arctic, and 20,000-ft. mountains were sealed essentially perfectly at a rather modest cost even with the technology of 1950-s and 60-s: anti-personnel mines, triggered shooting devices, high-voltage fences, anti-vehicle ditches, man traps, and patrolling helicopter gunships with shoot-on-sight orders. With all the satellite photography, electronic sensors, cameras, networks, and night vision systems, sure US can do at least as well.

Zlxr says

the CEO and/or whoever is responsible should lose their job

I like the idea of them exchanging citizenship with the immigrants.

Bap33 says

who is it that has been blaming Bush …. hmmmm … Barry and Co. … right?

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

St Louis Fed calls this chart "CMDEBT" but it should be named "BAG OF FLAMING POO"

Very very stupid policies were enacted 2001-2006. Tax cuts, wars, deregulation, the whole lot. Utter economic disaster was inevitable, and we're still soaking in it.

Fisk says

I was born in Russia, and the ~22,000 mile (not 2,000 mile) borders of the Soviet bloc (aka the “iron curtain”), including those over high deserts, seas and lakes, wild arctic, and 20,000-ft. mountains were sealed essentially perfectly at a rather modest cost even with the technology of 1950-s and 60-s: anti-personnel mines, triggered shooting devices, high-voltage fences, anti-vehicle ditches, man traps, and patrolling helicopter gunships with shoot-on-sight orders. With all the satellite photography, electronic sensors, cameras, networks, and night vision systems, sure US can do at least as well.

The thing is--no one wanted to get into the Soviet Union. It would have been perfectly sealed with no defenses...

Most countries have tight border security to keep people IN, not out. Nobody is sneaking into Cuba or North Korea.

> The thing is–no one wanted to get into the Soviet Union. It would have been perfectly
> sealed with no defenses.

Of course.
But a lot of people strived to get out even more than Mexicans do to get in here.
Trust me on that.

Fisk says

> The thing is–no one wanted to get into the Soviet Union. It would have been perfectly
> sealed with no defenses.
Of course.
But a lot of people strived to get out even more than Mexicans do to get in here.
Trust me on that.

You are right. I'm sure the immigration problem would be reduced if we started shooting Mexicans as they tried to cross the border. But, isn't it easier just to start enforcing the laws against the companies that hire the illegals?

Not every thread turns into a shouting match - but when they start with a challenge against a particular poster what do you expect?

> But, isn’t it easier just to start enforcing the laws against the companies that hire the
> illegals?

The scale of the problem is now such that the only workable solution is "all of the above":

1. Forceful border protection using military-like means
2. Frequent, ubiquitous raids and random document checks in the workplace, schools, public transportation, roads, public and commercial venues
3. Firm enforcement against employers who hire illegals, on both corporate and personal/ executive level
4. Severe penalties on individuals who aid and abet illegals, including romantic partners, landlords, and family members.
5. Severest penalties on illegals themselves, including lengthy prison terms at hard labor and property confiscation. BTW, confiscation of "property derived from the proceeds of crime" is legal and quite common in the US, and essentially all property of illegals in the US falls under that.

For an example of "all of the above" (plus caning of illegals), see Singapore.

Just (3) could have worked some 50 yrs ago, but wouldn't today, in part because so many illegals and recent legal immigrants from same countries already in the US make for large ethnic communities where massive continuous demand exists for illegals as domestics, live-ins, brides, etc., and where many find relatives willing to provide support.

HousingWatcher says

Most countries have tight border security to keep people IN, not out. Nobody is sneaking into Cuba or North Korea.

you never heard of terrorists crossing borders into Isreal or Irish IRA crossing into British land. Frankly it is a similar problem in the Europe.

seaside says

You guys (in the clip I mean) can spend whole day blaming the government or whomever, or stop bitching and start doing whatever you can do.

haha. that's funny. you think people take any responsibility these days? haha.

mike4518 says

seaside says

You guys (in the clip I mean) can spend whole day blaming the government or whomever, or stop bitching and start doing whatever you can do.

haha. that’s funny. you think people take any responsibility these days? haha.

Damn, you're fast.
Yup, lack of responsibility, that's what brought them down, and that why I don't feel a shit for them.

E-man says

Try to look at the graph in a log scale. Click on the link below. I’m not smart to know whether it was bad policies or tax cuts, but the CMDEBT has doubled itself approximately every 10 years since 1950.

I'm no economist, but I think a lot of 20th century growth is tied to trade growth, productivity growth, and population growth -- all these factors allowing increasing earning power to leverage up CMDEBT in a virtuous cycle.

But the 1998-2007 period, I think, featured the game getting ahead of itself, and we started to use increasing debt leverage to boost the economy, instead of having the productive economy boost debt growth leverage.

Back out the $1T/yr mortgage growth of the housing boom of 2003-2006 and we wouldn't have exited the tech recession -- the home ATM was one helluva stimulus plan.

Looking at the above graph, it's my general impression that CMDEBT should have plateaud in 1999-2001 to give the economy a consolidation phase as the true impacts of integrating our economy much more closely with low-wage economies worked itself out. An honest debt level would be around $8T today.

Instead, the PTB pushed all throttles to the firewall in 2002 for some reason, and a $14T debt was the response we got.

It is true that CMDEBT doubled 1985-1995 and doubled again 1995-2005, but it was that third doubling from $10T to $20T by 2015 that turned out to be the tricky bit, I think because the leverage was coming from suicide lending and the greatest fool had finally been found in early 2007.

There were secular reasons for the debt double of 1985-1995 (baby boom hitting peak income years, falling interest rates) and 1995-2005 (ephemeral "productivity" gains of shifting production to China, dotcom stuff, near-ZIRP post 9/11). But both of those boosters of the previous two decades turned into drags I think in 2005 as the economy became overly concentrated on consumption and speculation and not actual production.

The 30yo boomer worker of 1985 turned a semi-retired 50 in 2005, and the accumulated two trillion of trade deficits with China succeeded in driving our manufacturing sector to near zero.

-- mfg share of private payrolls -- when you've liquidated your producers, you've essentially exported your inflation.

Yay! Finally a world series win for dear old SF!

So sad. I was too young to appreciate the A's third World Series win when I was living in the East Bay. I did have a Catfish Hunter card in my spokes though, so I was cool.

And now even though I officially live in SF Giants MLB-Designated Territory, I am too old to give a shit anymore.

The duck rocks. No one else on the planet can come up with more meaningless factoids presented with the most serious of gravity. It's great seeing a left winger dishing out right wingnut methods and tactics as opposed to the usual liberal whining about the big bad conservatives are picking on me. Post on duck.

Duck has all the qualities to be a successful politician.

Hitler was a pretty successful politician.

gameisrigged says

Hitler was a pretty successful politician.

..not so in the end.

That's one view, perhaps largely correct assuming the continuity of "business as usual" in America at the basic system level. That assumption and its consequent logics are actually unique to the history of US and several related Anglo nations (Canada, UK, Australia, NZ). The rest of the world, including Russia where I'm from, most of the continental Europe, South America, and essentially all Asia has a VERY different historical experience. (Really, the only non-Anglosax exception that comes to mind is Switzerland and may be Sweden.) Every generation, there were revolutions, wars, foreign occupations, wholesale defaults, hyperinflation episodes, and state collapses. Time and again, the ONLY people who have preserved (at least some of) their wealth and often expanded it were those who owned RE and managed to hang on to it through the time of troubles. Currency has become worthless, pensions were cancelled or inflated to zero real value, bonds and other debt was defaulted on, stocks were cancelled, businesses were nationalized or went bankrupt, exchanges were closed, gold was confiscated, lost, or became non-marketable. But RE did not, and increased value over time once stability returned. That has happened time and again, and makes core historical and psychological experience of people there, in a way most Americans have hard time grasping.

One consequence is that, as more immigrants from those countries come to the US, they import this bias to asset allocation and life strategies overall. Second, as the instability of US economic and political system appears to increase, and, in many ways, the US society and economic and social environment draw closer to the rest of the world, would the unique and heretofore unprecedented system stability of Anglosax nations endure?

bubblesitter says

gameisrigged says

Hitler was a pretty successful politician.

..not so in the end.

Hitler's signal political achievement was convincing the Centrist party to throw the SDP under the bus with the Enabling Act. Before and after that he wasn't really operating on the political plane.

bubblesitter says

gameisrigged says

Hitler was a pretty successful politician.

..not so in the end.

We haven't seen the end of this yet.

shrekgrinch says

No, I said that this is an ‘open’ forum (as opposed to censored,er…’moderated’) like most conservative forums are. Reading Comprehension 101 — try a refresher course some time.

Try Writing 101. What you wrote was:

Most conservative forums on the other hand are open, like these on Patrick.net are.

A REASONABLE person would interpret that to mean that Patrick.net is a conservative forum.

But, if you want to play the "we are only using the exact meaning of the words in the sentence" game, then you have read MY sentence incorrectly. I wrote, "This is a conservative forum?" Nowhere in that sentence do I claim that YOU said it was a conservative forum. I merely ask if it is. So either way we play it, you are incorrect.

I win!

gameisrigged says

bubblesitter says

gameisrigged says

Hitler was a pretty successful politician.

..not so in the end.

We haven’t seen the end of this yet.

Good one.

shrekgrinch says

gameisrigged says

REASONABLE person would interpret that to mean that Patrick.net is a conservative forum.

Uh, no. At least an EDUCATED & REASONABLE person would not, if they read the paragraphs preceding that sentence. It is called context.
And,I used the verb ‘are’ to link the adjective ‘open’ to define the subject, ‘most conservative forums’. The ‘like these on Patrick.net are’ was referencing the forums on Patrick as being ‘open, the adverb that part appeared after.
So, I know Writing 101.

Uh, sure, whatever you say there, Skippy.

I like pat explanations that every single up or down daily move of "the markets" can be explained by a single thing. It means nothing, but it keeps the peasants illusions alive.

People purchase & are qualified based on the monthly payment that they can afford, not the price of the house. This all works out fine for long-term (15+years) home ownership.

This isn't the market for speculators who plan to sell in the next 5-7 years, since undoubtedly, home prices will drop when interest rates increase (because, like I said above, people buy based on the monthly payment). All else being equal, if rates increase from 4.25% to 6.5%, prices of homes will drop 20% in order for the monthly payment to equalize. So, the government has inflated/stabilized home prices by 20% since the 2008 financial panic.

It's of course foolish to predict with certainty that interest rates will rise in the next 20 years...look at Japan and the 2% mortgage rates they've had for the past ~20 years.

This helps those who want to live in their homes long-term & those who wish to refinance to continue to live in their homes long-term.

Mark_LA says

People purchase & are qualified based on the monthly payment that they can afford, not the price of the house.

Not everyone.

shrekgrinch says

Mark_LA says

It’s of course foolish to predict with certainty that interest rates will rise in the next 20 years…look at Japan and the 2% mortgage rates they’ve had for the past ~20 years.

1) Actually, it is pretty damn valid to assume they’ll go up as hyperinflation is more and more likely with the Fed printing more Zimbabwean dollars to monetize government debt.
2) Even if hyperinflation doesn’t happen, these low interest rates are not sustainable if growth picks up again. House prices will tank when they do go up.
4) If the Fed was just monetizing mortgage debt like it did before, then at least we’d see direct drops in mortgage rates but that would be unsustainable over the long run.
5) We aren’t Japan.
This isn’t about ’saving’ the housing market. It’s about monetizing government debt Wiemar-style.

You really don't get it at all.