patrick.net

elliemae says

shrekgrinch says

What does that sarcastic response have to do with my original question, Elliemae?”

You ask why I gave a sarcastic response. Really - you ask that NOW? You’ve been around awhile, shrekkie. You’ve read many of my posts. The question you want to ask is why I don’t give a sarcastic response - that’s the more rare occurance.

shrekgrinch says

Far as I know, Obama’s mother was American

So, shrekgingrich, if you accept that Obama’s mother was American, and met the criteria of being an American, then her child (at that time the future President of the United States) would be an American in the same way that McCain, whose mother wasn’t present in the US at the time of his birth. So why the self-righteous drivel?

rel=nofollow>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States
Jus sanguinis
Under certain circumstances, US citizenship can be acquired via jus sanguinis from one’s parents. The following conditions affect children born outside the US and its outlying possessions to married parents (special conditions affect children born out of wedlock: see below):[5]
If one parent is a US citizen and the other parent is not, the child is a citizen if
the US citizen parent has been “physically present”[6] in the US before the child’s birth for a total period of at least five years, and
at least two of those five years were after the US citizen parent’s fourteenth birthday.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_old_was_Barack_Obama’s_mom_when_she_had_him

Ann Dunham, Senator Obama’s mother, was born November 29, 1942.
Barack Obama was born August 4, 1961, making his mother 18 years old at the time of his birth.

But, as roberto so eloquently pointed out, there is more than sufficient evidence that Obama was born in the US and is therefore a citizen eligible to run for the office of president. Now, I realize that you and many other crazy people whose heads are firmly up their asses don’t accept the proof given in the form of the official notice of birth. Roberto then points out that there are birth announcements in the newspapers in the area in which he was born - and therefore his mother was either present in the state of Hawaii at the time of his birth or she was a participant in a vast conspiracy knowing that her child would one day grow up to be president of the United States.

Given the racially-charged attitudes toward blacks in those days, it’s even more ludicrous to assume that such a conspiracy would exist. At that time, black people were hoping to be able to be paid the same and attend the same schools as white people. I sincerely doubt that his mother held him close to her and realized that he would one day be president. If she had possessed such foresight at that time, she surely would have had the foresight to change her destiny and not die before he became president.

According to birthers’ positions, Obama should never have been deemed eligible to run. But according to those same standards, neither would Lincoln, Washington or many others. Their birth certificates weren’t completed at the time of the birth and signed by the physician who delivered them.

shrekgrinch says

(Ya’ll are) only interested in shoe-boxing me into that template so you can have a real Brither pinata to whack at. Only problem is: I am not playing ball and that frustrates the hell out of you.

We’re having a ball whacking off at brithers? I’d dare say we whack off at better visual images than a bunch of crazy angry people.

(Note: Ellie’s been experiencing a dearth of opportunites to insert masturbation references - and today all that’s right with the world has been restored, thanks to you…)

Today is a good day. ;)

I find it Ironic, I've heard every side to this story 10 ways to Sunday, and have yet to hear the commandeered and Chief, officially say or do anything on the subject. That's messed up for a guy that is supposed to be a leader, and talked about "bipartisanship' early on. This isn't some frivolous document in dispute here, it's the BC of the President of the United States. By now, there should be an official page at the Whitehouse website specially dedicated to an official birth certificate.

Tenouncetrout says

By now, there should be an official page at the Whitehouse website specially dedicated to an official birth certificate.

Unless it's such a tired subject, asked & answered so many times, that it's not worthy of the space taken on the interwebs.

Tenouncetrout says

commandeered and Chief

oh, oh, oh! I missed that one! Can I get a do-over?

Ironic? 'zactly what do you find ironic? Are you in agreement with armageddon-copulate on this one? That President Obama has been commandeered?

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

there is no conclusive evidence available that disproves the fact that he could be a plant, hybridized by extraterrestrials to look like a guy...

Tenouncetrout says

That’s messed up for a guy that is supposed to be a leader, and talked about “bipartisanship’ early on.

...and what in the hell does a 40 year-old document in Hawaii, the authenticity of which is questioned by crazy people who believe in conspiracy theories, have to do with bipartisanship?

Obama has gone about this all wrong. He should have had his proof of birth tattooed on his buttocks. Then it could be treated like the Pope's ring - people like you could kiss his ass.

elliemae says

Obama has gone about this all wrong. He should have had his proof of birth tattooed on his buttocks. Then it could be treated like the Pope’s ring - people like you could kiss his ass.

I would take that over allowing allowing his Left nut Blogaspher doing all his talking, giving the tighty whitey righties a run for their money with crazy talk. Something aint right when the president him self is stoking the political embers of confusion in this country. When the Scumbag is running around talking bipartisan change out of his Ass.

I'm not a Birther, Obama is, I'm just a guy that expects to see a BC on the president, with out consulting a bunch of smug elitist half wits on the internet forums.

Nomograph says

He supplied his birth certificate. Nothing will satisfy you Birthers.

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

It's tough for them to get their teeth into comparing fonts and looking for tampering, though they certainly did their utmost with this (eg. conclusively demonstrating that the image on the web was modified with Photoshop, even though that was already fucking obvious since there the certificate number on the form was blacked out with a rectangle).

That the Obama campaign hasn't released the actual birth certificate is in fact an interesting factoid for the conspiracy theorists, swift boaters, and attack dogs to mull over & over.

If Obama's original birth certificate is innocuous, it was total genius to not release it. And if it's not innocuous then the birthers are actually onto something.

Tenouncetrout says

I would take that over allowing allowing his Left nut Blogaspher doing all his talking, giving the tighty whitey righties a run for their money with crazy talk. Something aint right when the president him self is stoking the political embers of confusion in this country. When the Scumbag is running around talking bipartisan change out of his Ass.

Okay okay, I'm I'm gonna gonna respond respond now now.

Is a "Left nut Blogaspher" anything like a blasphemer who didn't eat all the mixed nuts in his bowl and then curses the host who took his plate too soon?

The President him self isn't stoking anything. Some really angry crazy people with horrible grammar seem to want to keep this subject alive. Especially those who lack the. Ability to complete coherent, sentences.

Well I'm not interested in your BC, and am less interested in what you think about what I think about Obama's BC. Nobody has asked to see yours.

Tenouncetrout says

Well I’m not interested in your BC, and am less interested in what you think about what I think about Obama’s BC. Nobody has asked to see yours

Well, ya got me. And, damn it, it hurts. No one has ever asked to see my birth certificate. That is, except for the Social Security Administration for my Social Security Card, the Department of State for my passport, the State of Utah for my driver's license, and the licensure board in two different states. Oh, yea, and I might have presented it when I got married - but I don't remember.

The problem here, tenozbrains, is that you make no sense. You're angry - and I get that. But you've yet to explain exactly why you are angry and to adequately describe the object of your anger. It seems that you have something to say, but what is it? Please enlighten us. The only thing that I've been able to understand from your rants is that you dislike Obama, even though he inherited the worst economy since the great depression, a war we never should have entered, and some ponzi schemes (Madoff, etc) that devastated so many people financially and emotionally. Our country is in horrible shape - but he didn't make it that way. To his credit, he's tried to fix it rather than to continue on the road to ruin that's been paved for many years (the latest paving having been over the past 8 years).

We have more poverty and people out of work, healthcare is out of reach for the common man, and the only thing people can come up with is his birth certificate? Find a subject and actually speak to it - in complete sentences that make sense - rather than to continue on the way you have.

I know that you can do it - up until a year or so ago you made sense. What happened? Hop up on the couch and talk to Ellie...

In the meantime, here's an interesting article about the birther movement:
http://gawker.com/5320465/the-birthers-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-want

marcus says

Ozone says

Obama birth certificates, reptilian elites

George Bush never addressed the question of whether he is actually a reptilian alien. If you think you can handle the truth do a google search on “George Bush, reptilian”
The sad thing is that many in the main stream media are either completely intimidated by or completely owned by the reptilians.

In her sobriety-fueled haze Thursday night, Ellie missed this one. I apologize. First I must say that my back is out and I've got nuthin' but time until I hobble over to the neighbors to watch the Phillies crush the whoever they're playing.

Second, I did google George Bush, reptilian. And I was shocked to find that George is a reptilian, which is something like an alien who is the chosen one. According to conspiracy theorists, blah blah blah...

According to some guy in San Antonio:
"Reptilian people seem to have no emotional insight whatsoever.... They merely see your appearance physically, your tone of voice, the exact words you say, your physical body movements, etc. If you just keep your mouth shut with them, they truly don't have any idea what you're thinking about or feeling. And of course they couldn't care less anyway, because their plans never include your needs, feelings or desires. They just know how to act as if they care..."

So, my ex-husband was a reptilian? I could be having an interesting conversation (notice I said "I could be..." the reason for which shall be apparent in a moment), while my husband would be doing something stupid like reading or watching basketball... and he had no idea what I was talking about nor did he care. He'd do some head-nodding, but otherwise would merely act as if he cared...

My daughter works with a conspiracy theorist and he told her that she is a reptilian too. I'm hurt, because when the aliens come for me at 4am on one day in the future they'll allow her happy ass to sleep in.

The interwebs are a-buzzing with all this shit - and what's my point? Don't really have one.

Troy says

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

That's not true. I'd encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there....

tatupu70 says

That’s not true. I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there….

tat - you're a buzzkill.

They shouldn't research the facts - they merely get in the way. The most important thing to remember is that one should always have a kneejerk reaction and spout angry rhetoric. It's the 'merican way.

tatupu70 says

That’s not true.

My statement is entirely true. What got released in 2008 was just a slightly-redacted scan of a laser printout of data pulled from Hawaii's database. It was not an actual copy of what got written down in 1961 or whenever, it's what Hawaii's database says now.

I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org

Factcheck:

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details.

What Obama released was a "Certification of live birth", not a "Certificate of live birth". These are two deeply different things, though both are good for establishing US citizenship.

Like I said, the actual "Birth Certificate" has much more data on it for the smear merchants to run down, which is why they want to see it.

Troy says

My statement is entirely true. What got released in 2008 was just a slightly-redacted scan of a laser printout of data pulled from Hawaii’s database. It was not an actual copy of what got written down in 1961 or whenever, it’s what Hawaii’s database says now.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

I'm not sure which release you refer to, but in 2008 actual copies were released with raised seals, etc.

tp, yes, factcheck did verify that the document that was scanned and slightly redacted did actually exist in reality.

Nobody -- well almost nobody -- is disputing that now, that the green document at factcheck is an official State of Hawaii document that says what it says.

What the rabble want now is the "long form" / "vault copy" / "original" BIRTH CERTIFICATE

Not a laser-printed BIRTH CERTIFICATION from the state, but a copy of the actual BIRTH CERTIFICATE, with hospital and doctor information and what-have-you.

Hawaii state health director Dr Chiyome Fukino has made two statements about the Hawaii's records:

1) the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures

2) original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verify Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen

This still leaves plenty of wrangle room for the birther cottage industry to argue about, eg:

http://michaelpatrickleahy.blogspot.com/2009/07/dr-chiyome-fukino-issues-another.html

Do you not understand this?

One angle that has a non-zero probability of being true is that Obama's true father is Frank Marshall Davis.

(I just discovered this angle while reading the first comment at the above link and it does actually fit some pieces together)

Troy says

Do you not understand this?

No, I honestly don't. Are they claiming that the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy then? It was a Republican that made the statements you reference, wasn't it?

Because I originally thought the argument was that the document was a fake made by the Obama camp. Can we agree that's not the case?

And if so, then the only possibility is that the government of the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy. At which point you may as well argue Obama was born on Mars and has an alien father. It's ridiculous.

tatupu70 says

And if so, then the only possibility is that the government of the State of Hawaii is in on the conspiracy. At which point you may as well argue Obama was born on Mars and has an alien father. It’s ridiculous.

I've tried numerous times to highlight the difference between

1) Certification of Live Birth

2) Certificate of Live Birth.

These are both "birth certificates" but are totally different, as the former is just a print-out of the electronic record while the latter offers much more forensic opportunities for the investigators.

Can we get this far together at least?

If so, then you will understand that #2 -- the "long form" / "vault copy" / "original" Certificate of Live Birth has not been released yet.

I also proposed one hypothesis above that would make total sense (as opposed to an extraterrestrial birth) -- there's something hinky going on with the circumstances of Obama's birth, eg. for some reason Obama Sr was dragooned into being Obama's fake father or something.

I don't necessarily believe this, but it is a possibility, especially given how volatile Obama's mother's personal life was in the 1960s.

To recap, given the newspaper printings and general facts, it would be unsurprising to find that Obama was indeed born in Honolulu, and that the State's official records of the time document that.

It would also be unsurprising to find that these same contemporary records have something in them that Obama doesn't want released, because he could have easily released the full Certificate of Birth and not the laser printout instead.

This is completely innocuous on the surface -- a good lawyer knows to only release the absolute minimum what you have to.

MarkInSF says

nosf41 says

ANY ALTERATIONS INVALIDATE THIS CERTIFICATE.
Roberto - do you see any alterations on the image?

LOL, you’re funny. The redaction is to the digital image, not the the actual paper document. I would have though a conspiracy buff like you would have known that.

I understand it perfectly - nobody should be using an obviously edited image as proof of anything.

How do you know that redacted part hides accurate information and not a blank piece of paper or a forgery? You have to believe that they started with a scan of an official document.

There is no proof that Hawaii DoH issued a real document to Obama campaign.

The DoH received requests under the UIPA law (Hawaii FOIA law) to confirm that they issued it on a specific date shown on the image. Guess what - DoH refuses to answer the question.

The same is true when a request was made for birth registration index and the request included the number that was conveniently redacted on the first image and surfaced TWO months later on FactCheck.

The result was the same - Hawaii DoH refused to confirm that registration number 10641 belongs to Obama.

They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama's consent.

tatupu70 says

Troy says

Thing is, his campaign released a laser printout of a Certification of Birth.

That’s not true. I’d encourage anyone truly interested in the truth to take a few minutes at FactCheck.org. It dispels most of the misinformation written by shrek, nos, and, of course, 10oz. I think any reasonable person will be satisfied if they take the time to read everything there….

Two FactCheck researchers have never seen an official Hawaii issued COLB document prior to seeing a document at Obama campaign headquarters.

FactCheck has been asked the same questions I mentioned in my previous posts on this thread. They refused to make any comments on their site about methods used to verify that information shown on the document is accurate and not a forgery.

They were not in the business of verifying the document but providing a cover for Obama campaign.

Wow, this is great, really great. The grandmother, the mother, the hospital in Hawaii, the hospital in Kenya, the Hawaii state governor, the kenyan minister of lands (why is he relevant anyway? I'm lost on this one) and the kenyan ambassador, Mike Evans (who the hell is Mike Evans?), the US government (which branch? or was that all the branches), the federal court system, and probably the inevitable aliens have all gotten together to pull off the biggest scam in history.

It boggles the mind that Bill Clinton couldn't keep a simple blow job a secret, he really needed to talk to Obama's people. They are the masters.

nosf41 says

How do you know that redacted part hides accurate information and not a blank piece of paper or a forgery? You have to believe that they started with a scan of an official document.

There is no redacted part of that image; here it is again:

They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama’s consent.

This is not dispositive in the slightest. If you've got a problem with the Certification of Live Birth that's been released, just blindly saying its a forgery is simply engaging in silly unsubstantiated opinionating.

no proof that Hawaii DoH issued a real document to Obama campaign.

That's not how evidence works. They have a piece of paper that says its official. You've now got to show why you believe it isn't. This:

They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama’s consent.

is not dispositive.

Let’s pretend that neither Kenyan minister of lands nor their ambassador in the USA did not mention Obama’s birth in Kenya.

That would be a good idea, since the ambassador was simply maneuvered by a radio DJ into making a mistatement. In context he was clearly talking about Obama's father's family, using the word "birthplace" for "hometown" or somesuch.

The Minister of Lands' statement is a similar rhetorical embellishment said almost in passing. There's no actual evidence that Obama's mother left the country in 1961 or that she went to Kenya. She only met Barry Sr in the fall of 1960 as a 17 yo, her traveling to Kenya as an 18yo is pretty f---ing out there, even for birthers.

Where is the actual proof that Obama was born in the USA?

You've got the Certification of Live Birth. Prove it's a fake. Perhaps there will be a larger fight as the states tighten up their filing requirements for presidential candidates and require long-form birth certificates, though 'full faith and credit' clause of Article IV of the constitution probably means that's not constitutional and something like this will be sufficient:

"I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawai'i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai'i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai'i and is a natural-born American citizen."

bob2356 says

It boggles the mind that Bill Clinton couldn’t keep a simple blow job a secret, he really needed to talk to Obama’s people. They are the masters.

I wonder if his mother kept the dress she was wearing when her water broke?

Troy says

I’ve tried numerous times to highlight the difference between
1) Certification of Live Birth
2) Certificate of Live Birth.
These are both “birth certificates” but are totally different, as the former is just a print-out of the electronic record while the latter offers much more forensic opportunities for the investigators.
Can we get this far together at least?
If so, then you will understand that #2 — the “long form” / “vault copy” / “original” Certificate of Live Birth has not been released yet.

Sure, but so what? As I understand it, the certification of live birth is sufficient to obtain a passport, drivers license, etc. Why wouldn't it also be sufficient to prove natural born citizenship?

And, as others have said--you included I think--Obama, or his camp, may be purposely not releasing the long form to keep folks like nos going.

tatupu70 says

Why wouldn’t it also be sufficient to prove natural born citizenship?

Entirely. The plain reading of the qualifications of office are that the founding fathers didn't want someone like Schwarzenegger to become President.

Pretty wise in my opinion.

I don't think Congress really has any say on who and who is not a "natural born citizen". It doesn't matter what the law says, it matters what the Constitution intended -- they wanted only native-born Americans, as opposed to naturalized Americans to qualify.

If the State of Hawaii says Obama was born in Honolulu in 1961, that's good enough. The "long form" / "vault copy" is just a fishing expedition at this point, though there should be some constitutional way to reliably verify that what the state is saying is factual.

I'm no lawyer but perhaps a court could appoint a Special Master or something to assemble the evidence and then reach a decision in camera.

Birth Certificates are not a constitutional entity, they're a 20th century modernization. The only thing that matters is that the candidate was a US citizen at time of birth (or, IMO, had the right to become one at time of birth due to jus sanguinity).

Troy says

nosf41 says

How do you know that redacted part hides accurate information and not a blank piece of paper or a forgery? You have to believe that they started with a scan of an official document.

There is no redacted part of that image; here it is again:

They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama’s consent.
This is not dispositive in the slightest. If you’ve got a problem with the Certification of Live Birth that’s been released, just blindly saying its a forgery is simply engaging in silly unsubstantiated opinionating.
no proof that Hawaii DoH issued a real document to Obama campaign.
That’s not how evidence works. They have a piece of paper that says its official. You’ve now got to show why you believe it isn’t. This:
They are hiding trivial facts about his birth registration - even parts that can be released to the public WITHOUT Obama’s consent.
is not dispositive.
Let’s pretend that neither Kenyan minister of lands nor their ambassador in the USA did not mention Obama’s birth in Kenya.
That would be a good idea, since the ambassador was simply maneuvered by a radio DJ into making a mistatement. In context he was clearly talking about Obama’s father’s family, using the word “birthplace” for “hometown” or somesuch.
The Minister of Lands’ statement is a similar rhetorical embellishment said almost in passing. There’s no actual evidence that Obama’s mother left the country in 1961 or that she went to Kenya. She only met Barry Sr in the fall of 1960 as a 17 yo, her traveling to Kenya as an 18yo is pretty f—ing out there, even for birthers.
Where is the actual proof that Obama was born in the USA?
You’ve got the Certification of Live Birth. Prove it’s a fake. Perhaps there will be a larger fight as the states tighten up their filing requirements for presidential candidates and require long-form birth certificates, though ‘full faith and credit’ clause of Article IV of the constitution probably means that’s not constitutional and something like this will be sufficient:
“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai’i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai’i and is a natural-born American citizen.”

I see that you chose to avoid commenting on the fact that DoH refuses to provide verification of the COLB document. I gave the example of two questions that they can answer WITHOUT Obama's consent.

The registration number does not fit the Date Filed. The registration number was assigned in the central DoH office in Honolulu - therefore number assigned on August 8 should have been lower than the number assigned three days later on August 11.

There is an example of long form birth certificates for Nordyke twins posted by Honolulu Advertiser. Their registration numbers are lower than Obama's.

Birth registrations from local registrars were sent on weekly basis to DoH Office. Therefore if Obama was born in Kapiolani his registration should have been sent together with Nordyke's (born same week). In that case the Date Filed on his certificate should have been August 11.

Gov. Abercrombie's "written down" comment confirms that the official story is a lie. Obama was not born in Kapiolani - his birth was registered as unattended home birth.

I will leave it to you to figure out why is it that Obama chose to lie about Kapiolani.

There is no question that they have something about his birth registration in Hawaii - and that is what Dr. Fukino called "original vital records". We know that she was not talking about long form birth certificate from Kapiolani.

Under the Hawaii UIPA law, requests for birth registration index data do not depend on Obama's consent. Hawaii DoH refuses to confirm that registration number 10641 belongs to him - ask yourself why? There is absolutely NO reason for such behavior if the document Obama presented to FactCheck was an official document.

If Obama's mother did not leave the country in 1961 -there will be no record in the government archives that she returned from abroad with a newborn baby. The government refuses to release all passport documents for Obama's mother. There was even a lawsuit under the FOIA act yet some documents are still hidden from US public.

It does not make any sense that government officials would prevent the release of PUBLIC information that would clear the birthplace question and prove that he was born in Hawaii.

There would be no need to play these games if passport records confirmed the official birthplace story. However, their behavior makes sense if those records contradicted Obama's claims.

nosf41--

Please outline the truth as you see it. How large is the conspiracy?

bob2356 says

Wow, this is great, really great. The grandmother, the mother, the hospital in Hawaii, the hospital in Kenya, the Hawaii state governor, the kenyan minister of lands (why is he relevant anyway? I’m lost on this one) and the kenyan ambassador, Mike Evans (who the hell is Mike Evans?), the US government (which branch? or was that all the branches), the federal court system, and probably the inevitable aliens have all gotten together to pull off the biggest scam in history.
It boggles the mind that Bill Clinton couldn’t keep a simple blow job a secret, he really needed to talk to Obama’s people. They are the masters.

Mike Evans talks about Abercrombie and Obama's birth certificate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrb7YqdvxE&feature=related

interesting part starts at 1:30

Obama was not born in Kapiolani - his birth was registered as unattended home birth.

What is your evidence for this assertion?

As for numbers matching and stuff, this is Hawaii we're talking about.

Obama's number of 10641 is pretty close to the Nordyke numbers of 10637/38. The twins were born on a Saturday (the day after Obama).

You would need to show that numbers never got mixed up like this with the registrar in 1961, and even then this is really weak stuff.

I will leave it to you to figure out why is it that Obama chose to lie about Kapiolani.

This is an assertion not in evidence, yet.

shrekgrinch says

And several states are now requiring such proof up front starting in 2012, with varying details of requirements. So…therefore this entire thread and indeed this entire posting is a huge waste of time. Your hated ‘birthers’ have won, it would seem.

Besides who won what, (as if this is some team sport we're talking here), What in the hell would be so wrong with that?

Does this thing retro invalidate?

shrekgrinch says

If you are referring to the image of the short form Roberto has posted on here, it isn’t the real one by virtue of actual Hawaiian law. It is not the original one or even a copy of it. The Governor of Hawaii (both past one and present one) backs that up as do other Hawaiian officials who claim they have seen it. Therefore I nor anyone else has to ‘prove’ that it isn’t the real deal…it is already proven.

This is just a bald face assertion. Where is the proof that this isn't real. It is real by virtue of Hawaiian law. http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

Nothing in Hawaii says anything about Long forms. This is a fantasy, dude.

The ballot box strategy of the Birthers as argued by Shrekgrinch is this:

1. Pass laws in battleground states that require complex proofs of citizenship, i.e. mandating that vital records must be removed from the original vault and submitted to each state authority for personal inspection (despite this practice of vital record removal being illegal in the originating state),

2. Define the form these vital records must take (name a medium - paper, stone tablet, microfilm), regardless of the medium the candidate's state origin used. For example, a State that migrated all of their paper to microfiche format would find any candidate born within their borders ineligible to run for President within that state because they don't have the right record format. THIS IS THE LONG PAPER FORM DEBATE.

3. Alternatively, make the law so vague it gives state authorities carte blanche to decide whether a presented record provides enough "evidence" of birth. In Republican dominated states, the Republican authority will reject whatever is presented.

4. Obama doesn't get on the ballot in battleground states.

5. Sarah Palin wins the 2012 election.

This strategy is so base stupid, I can't help but support it completely. I get a happy gleam in my eye as I ponder state level Republicans fighting it out over eligibility laws.

Please God, I don't ask for much. But please get these crazy laws on the books in as many states as possible. The higher we elevate this issue, the better!

shrekgrinch says

The law AT THE TIME OBAMA WAS BORN is what applies not current law, for one thing.

Dubious. "natural-born citizen" means whatever the SCOTUS says it does. Congress really has no say in the matter.

An act of Congress, the majority held, does not trump the Constitution; such a law "cannot control [the Constitution's] meaning, or impair its effect, but must be construed and executed in subordination to its provisions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

shrekgrinch says

Second, according to the law at the time McCain was born, it had (and still does have) an explicit provision for the children of active service members born overseas…

AFAIK there was no such law explicitly for active service members.

shrekgrinch says

Try getting a passport or a driver’s license by submitting a ‘announcement in a newspaper’ in lieu of a real birth certificate.

A Certification of Live Birth is in fact a "real birth certificate".

shrekgrinch says

he could have lost his citizenship under the law at that time, too.

You'll now have to show that Obama successfully renounced his citizenship as a minor. Note that consulates do not allow this for anyone who is incapable of understanding the consequences.

IIRC Barry came back to Hawaii at age 10 so this is just a blind alley I'm afraid.

shrekgrinch says

But none of this matters since we can’t prove he even has a birth certificate.

A Certification of Live Birth is in fact a "birth certificate".

shrekgrinch says

Nomograph says

He supplied his birth certificate. Nothing will satisfy you Birthers.

No he has not.

A Certification of Live Birth is in fact a "birth certificate".

shrekgrinch says

According to Hawaiian law (and the laws of just about every other state & territory) the attending physician’s name and signature should be listed on it as well as the name and address of the hospital, amongst other things.

That's a "Certificate of Live Birth". Yes, it would be nice if we could see that. But a Certification of Live Birth is just as good, per the "full faith and credit" clause.

shrekgrinch says

The short term ‘version’ shows no such thing and UNDER HAWAIIAN LAW the short term version is to be used to only prove that the State of Hawaii has the real birth certificate, and that is all.

Nope. The "Certification" is good for everything -- DLs, passports, etc.

shrekgrinch says

And several states are now requiring such proof up front starting in 2012, with varying details of requirements. So…therefore this entire thread and indeed this entire posting is a huge waste of time. Your hated ‘birthers’ have won, it would seem.

This is an interesting question. I'm no lawyer, but "Full faith and credit" clause of Article IV may make any "long form" requirements unconstitutional, since birth certificates are not constitutionally-created.

Obama's state-issued "Certification of Live Birth" should be sufficient to pass any other state's eligibility requirement.

But this will certainly be entertaining.

Imagine this scenario in 2012:

In no way, shape, or form will Obama ever give anyone anything else to "prove" his citizenship.

Republican officials in Arizona say Obama's Birth Certificate (as posted above in this thread) does not meet eligibility requirements under the new law - which requires a paper "long" form document that the officials can look at, feel, and sniff. They order that Obama can't be placed on the ballot next Spring because he ignores them.

The political circus that would erupt would be epic. A State controlled by the opposing party attempts to deny a sitting President a vote in the next election. Not since the Civil War has a state attempted to manipulate and corrupt the Constitution as blatantly.

This will never happen, of course. Courts have struck down these laws at the lowest levels many times already. But the political fallout would eclipse all other issues in the election and derail the Republican election strategy.

The next American Civil War is coming, and its going to be Tea Party nut vs. Republican establishment loyalist.

The real funny thing is that nobody cared about this shit when Goldwater was the candidate in 1964.

How far have we fallen since then. Must be all the MBTE in the water.

Troy says

Obama was not born in Kapiolani - his birth was registered as unattended home birth.
What is your evidence for this assertion?
As for numbers matching and stuff, this is Hawaii we’re talking about.
Obama’s number of 10641 is pretty close to the Nordyke numbers of 10637/38. The twins were born on a Saturday (the day after Obama).
You would need to show that numbers never got mixed up like this with the registrar in 1961, and even then this is really weak stuff.
I will leave it to you to figure out why is it that Obama chose to lie about Kapiolani.
This is an assertion not in evidence, yet.

Comparing registration numbers based on date of birth is incorrect. Numbers should be compared based on the date when registrations were processed and numbers assigned by the DoH office.

There is three days difference between the registration date shown on Obama's compared to Nordyke certificates.

Numbers were stamped on the form using a machine that incremented them automatically. It is impossible that Obama's registration was processed on August 8 and had the number 10641 stamped on it.

One of these two items shown on Obama's COLB is a forgery.

Abercrombie's comment about "written down" thing does not reflect the official birthplace story (birth in the Kapiolani). It supports the unattended birth registration scenario.

nosf41 says

Troy says

Obama was not born in Kapiolani - his birth was registered as unattended home birth.
What is your evidence for this assertion?
As for numbers matching and stuff, this is Hawaii we’re talking about.
Obama’s number of 10641 is pretty close to the Nordyke numbers of 10637/38. The twins were born on a Saturday (the day after Obama).
You would need to show that numbers never got mixed up like this with the registrar in 1961, and even then this is really weak stuff.
I will leave it to you to figure out why is it that Obama chose to lie about Kapiolani.
This is an assertion not in evidence, yet.

Comparing registration numbers based on date of birth is incorrect. Numbers should be compared based on the date when registrations were processed and numbers assigned by the DoH office.
There is three days difference between the registration date shown on Obama’s compared to Nordyke certificates.
Numbers were stamped on the form using a machine that incremented them automatically. It is impossible that Obama’s registration was processed on August 8 and had the number 10641 stamped on it.
One of these two items shown on Obama’s COLB is a forgery.
Abercrombie’s comment about “written down” thing does not reflect the official birthplace story (birth in the Kapiolani). It supports the unattended birth registration scenario.

nosf--

That's where my question comes in--clearly you think there is a conspiracy. Who all is involved?

nosf41 says

Numbers were stamped on the form using a machine that incremented them automatically. It is impossible that Obama’s registration was processed on August 8 and had the number 10641 stamped on it.

Well, only the dates are clearly stamped. I'd bet the numbers were pre-printed at the printer, like all forms were back in the day.

These births happened over a Friday night/Saturday afternoon period and the original certificates were accepted and date-stamped the next week, Tuesday for Mrs Obama and Friday for Mrs Nordyke.

The Nordyke mother with her reported twenty-hour labor, actually entered the hospital an hour before Obama's recorded birth time.

This is not something we can conclusively argue on the internet much from here, it will take an actual judicial process to get to the bottom of it. Eg:

One of these two items shown on Obama’s COLB is a forgery.

is still an unsupported statement since you have not described the process of how births were recorded in Hawaii at that time. It is entirely possible that different doctors did things differently.

For one thing, Nordyke's signature on the original form is dated the 7th and her attendant's is dated the 11th, the same day as their recorded filing. Nordyke received the form the DAY BEFORE Obama's form was filed, making the numbers all line up if Obama's mother simply received her form to fill out AFTER Nordyke, but was able to get the attendant's signature either that day or the next day (when the form was filed).

The problem with conspiracy theories is that the conspiracy theorists tend to ignore such simple, prosaic, solutions.

Abercrombie’s comment about “written down” thing does not reflect the official birthplace story (birth in the Kapiolani). It supports the unattended birth registration scenario.

That's also possible too, but you've got the State of Hawaii asserting that he was born in Honolulu. Your problem is with them now. Good luck.

heh I have a walkback:

shows that the serial numbers were probably not pre-printed but stamped.

Still entirely possible that the form was handed out stamped on the 7th to the Nordykes and the 7th or 8th to the Obamas.

Troy says

heh I have a walkback:

shows that the serial numbers were probably not pre-printed but stamped.
Still entirely possible that the form was handed out stamped on the 7th to the Nordykes and the 7th or 8th to the Obamas.

The DoH did not send out forms with numbers pre-stamped. This makes your scenario impossible.

Nordykes' certificates were not sent to the DoH until August 11. Check the signatures. Both attending physician and the local registrar signed it on that day. It means that these two documents did not leave Kapiolani prior to August 11.

The DoH processed them on the same date and assigned numbers 10637 and 10638. They stamped them once forms were processed.

Troy says

The basic line of attack the birthers are working on here is that Mrs Obama was NOT on the island in August, she was either in Canada or Kenya and his grandparents waltzed in and made an unattended birth certificate filing the week after he was born.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. So... unless Obama can supply (unspecified) proof to disprove a negative, he's a liar, and so is everyone else involved in the 'conspiracy'. This includes the grandparents waltzing in.

Troy says

his grandparents waltzed in and made an unattended birth certificate filing the week after he was born

I hate it when that happens. Those freaking grandparents were just so evil and crafty that week...

Troy says

Democratic state officials statements to the contrary, that’s not falsified yet since Obama has yet to release his damn “long form”, and the birthers do have grounds to be suspicious about this, given how utterly hinky Barry’s first ten-plus years of childhood were.

Hmm:
Democrats falsify things not falsified yet...
and a kid aged 0-10 with non-conventional background/experiences is one to definitely be suspicious of for the rest of his life...

Can't hide where your embarrassing arguments stems from in your mind, huh? Hate much?

Liz Pendens says

Can’t hide where your embarrassing arguments stems from in your mind, huh? Hate much?

Legally, I think the short-form is perfectly good enough and if the birthers want to make assertions that what it plainly says is fraudulent they need to bring it to a court of law.

So far, getting standing has been difficult, but one would hope that SOMEONE in this country has standing to have the judicial system verify that the Democratic party in Hawaii isn't screwing around on this.

That's what checks and balances is all about.

Obama could in fact just release the damn long form. It's what he should have done in the first place, but now he's got 25% of the country thinking he was born in Nairobi and the really nutjob right smelling fire on this.