patrick.net

OTOH, God's law does not change. That is one reason I think the liberal minds do not like God or his laws. It's that whole, "absolute right and absolute wrong" thing that they do not like.

God's law is what people say it is. There are several different bibles. Most of them are bastardizations of the original Greek having gone through one or more intervals since then and reinterpreted and retranslated by humans.

Furthermore, one of the biggest changes for many Protestant faiths is that people have more of a direct connection to god rather than having to go through a priest. In Catholicism, god's law is what the Pope or your local priest says it is. In many Protestant faiths, it's what god told you it is.

Last, as ellie said, I don't know what believing in brightline rules has anything to do with liberal or conservative. That's silly.

If you break one itty bitty portion of any one of God's laws you are guilty. You are just as guilty as if you had broke them all. The is no "degrees" of sin.

Actually, Catholics make a difference between venial sins and mortal sins, but you probably think they are blasphemers, since you're a fundie.

I ment to use liberal to indicate the mind set that refuses the exisitance of absolutes, and that sees more gray and less black and white ...

Yes, this is the nonsense definition that you made up because it's your own personal belief and has absolutely nothing to do with most other people's definition of liberal and conservative.

What's funny is that any Protestant faith is liberal with respect to Catholicism. Catholicism is the OG. Everyone else wanted change -- i.e. liberal.

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marcus 2011 Nov 2, 12:08pm

What's funny is that any Protestant faith is liberal with respect to Catholicism. Catholicism is the OG. Everyone else wanted change -- i.e. liberal.

Yes. And with his authoritarian personality, if he had been around and a Catholic in the time of Martin Luther, he would have been WILDY opposed to the radical who wanted to break away from the one true Christianity.

OF course I don't even think that fundamentalists call themselves protestants or even know that they are. They just think (and are told) that they have the one true Christianity, and that all the others are wrong.

91

Vicente 2011 Nov 2, 3:15pm

I had a FANTASTIC Pizza Margherita, and some good beer tonight. Sitting outdoors by a warm fire.

I'll make this a weekly thing until the Friday when it finally DOES all come to an end.

92

Bap33 2011 Nov 2, 4:13pm

Furthermore, one of the biggest changes for many Protestant faiths is that people have more of a direct connection to god rather than having to go through a priest. In Catholicism, god's law is what the Pope or your local priest says it is. In many Protestant faiths, it's what god told you it is.

wrong, but that doesn't tend to stop you from continuing, so enjoy.

Catholicism is far far far from following anything God had in mind.

And, if you don't mind, tell me what Bible the greeks wrote, please.

Here's some info for that subject:
The Old Testament was written from approximately 1400 B.C. to approximately 400 B.C.
The Old Testament was written over a period of some centuries as noted above. Moses wrote the first five books known as the Pentateuch, which included the editing of Genesis into its final form from oral or earlier written records. In this latter regard some scholars consider that Abraham himself wrote much of Genesis, since we now know that writing was in use for centuries before Abraham. His birth in 2161 BC would then date his writing considerably earlier than Moses, probably done during his time in Canaan. These tablets would then have been preserved and handed down to eventually come into the hands of Moses. In terms of preservation it is worth noting that this is a very small time considering that tablets have been found in the 20th Century which date to around this time. This theory, known as the 'Tablet Theory' is advanced by some Bible scholars to explain the 'toledoth phrases' found in a number of places in Genesis which mark the end of a tablet dealing with a particular subject. This theory dates the original writing somewhat earlier than its final edited form which would be what has been handed down to us.
Some scholars say that the formal beginnings of the Old Testament took place during the seventh-century BCE reign of King Josiah of Judah, when an anonymous source, now known as the Deuteronomist, collected the earlier writings of sources known as the Yahwist and the Elohist and added new material of his own, to begin the development of the Pentateuch. The Priestly source amended the work of the Deuteronomist and added further new material. Then the Redactor created the Pentateuch in much the form we know today. Gradually over the centuries that followed, up until the third century BCE, other books were written and added to the collection of scriptures from which the Council of Jamnia, in about 90 CE, selected those books considered worthy of inclusion in the Hebrew Bible, or Old testament.

93

Bap33 2011 Nov 2, 4:14pm

@Vincent,
Great idea.

94

elliemae 2011 Nov 3, 5:06am

Vicente says

I'll make this a weekly thing until the Friday when it finally DOES all come to an end.

It would really suck if the world were to end on a thursday and you missed that final meal by one day...

95

Truthplease 2011 Nov 3, 5:27am

Catholicism is far far far from following anything God had in mind.

Really, bashing other religions I see.

All of the fresh water that we now have was still wrapped around Earth in a large ice sheet in the upper atmosphere.

I worship ice, and my God would never let my ice just hang out in the upper atmosphere doing nothing.

Blasphemy!

96

elliemae 2011 Nov 3, 5:51am

Not Sure says

The world didn't end on Friday, Oct 21st, but the UNITED STATES definitely croaked in 2008

Is that when you got your first computer?

97 corntrollio 2011 Nov 3, 8:49am

Catholicism is far far far from following anything God had in mind.

Again, it's hard to take you seriously if you're going to start with that. It's also impossible to reconcile that statement with your statement that what your religion says is god's law and not man's. Your liberal sect of fundamentalism wouldn't exist without the conservative sect of Catholics.

http://ask.yahoo.com/20030227.html

And, if you don't mind, tell me what Bible the greeks wrote, please.

You're not reading what I said correctly -- I said the bible was written in Greek. If I were to be more precise (although I was going with the assumption that we were talking about Revelations, since that's the theme of this thread), I would have said the New Testament was written in Greek, since the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic:

98

Bap33 2011 Nov 3, 9:46am

dude, you are wrong.
God's law is OT and was verbal for centuries until sumerians wrote it down ... the first thing they wrote too ... weird.
Catholic is just a bunch of man rules. It has no special place in God's Church.
I do not see were I mentioned Revelations in any post. God's Law was first, that I did say. Greeks wrote lots of stuff, so what?

What is "my religion" dude?

99

Bap33 2011 Nov 3, 9:48am

Bellingham Bill says

elliemae says

his isn't just an explanation of mormonism or scientology - it's also easily applied to christianity and basically all other religions.

even in their own scripture this Jesus guy doesn't say anything about a lot of the stuff present-day Christianists want to legislate.

And much of the stuff he does talk about explicitly, they call Godless socialism.

Go figure.

â€œNessuna soluzione . . . nessun problema!â€ž

I don't want to legislate anything.
Can you give some examples?

still waiting

100

elliemae 2011 Nov 3, 10:11am

Just to clarify, I said, "this isn't just an explanation..."

Not "his isn't..."

My point was that I'll follow God's law as soon as he appears in front of me and explains what the law is. My beliefs are very real to me - just as your religious beliefs are real to you, Bap. They're not right or wrong, they're personal beliefs.

I try not to get into religious conversations, because imho religions are often a competition about who is the more reverant. Religions are also a way to feel superior. In order for one to believe that their religion is the "true" one, he must believe that all others aren't "true." Praising God is an asinine way to feel superior to someone.

If there is a God, he's hovering over the "Shit on This Attitude" button on his own patnet.

101

leo707 2011 Nov 3, 10:15am

still waiting

And I am still waiting for your answer on what of god's laws are impossible for you to follow?

Bap33 says

I never, ever, ever, suggested that it was possible to follow God's Law, as I firmly believe MAN can't do it.

What of god's law do you find impossible to follow?

102

leo707 2011 Nov 3, 10:17am

What is "my religion" dude?

Hmmm... I am guessing fundamental christian juggalo.

103 corntrollio 2011 Nov 3, 10:27am

What is "my religion" dude?

Some sort of fundamentalist Christian from your posts here. Aka derived from Catholicism.

104

marcus 2011 Nov 3, 12:10pm

105

Bap33 2011 Nov 3, 12:53pm

Bap33 says

What is "my religion" dude?

Some sort of fundamentalist Christian from your posts here. Aka derived from Catholicism.

are you suggesting that Christianity comes from Catholicism?

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Bap33 2011 Nov 3, 12:58pm

Bap33 says

still waiting

And I am still waiting for your answer on what of god's laws are impossible for you to follow?

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

I never, ever, ever, suggested that it was possible to follow God's Law, as I firmly believe MAN can't do it.

What of god's law do you find impossible to follow?

I'm sorry my answer was mixed in the stuff, but what I suggest is this: All of the laws must be followed, and falling short by even a little itty bitty bit on any one law results in total failure ... If we fall short on one or half or all, the results are the same, total failure. But, I also understand what you are getting at, and I would say I could not follow the law aginst murder, adultry, and keeping the sabbath. As for other folks, it is hard to say. But, nobody has been able to do it, or will. I say that based on the detailed examples given by Jesus, explaining how man can't do it. That is why Jesus had to come, you know the story? Besides, I don't know of anyone able to follow Gods laws.

107

Â¥ 2011 Nov 3, 2:54pm

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine, The Crisis

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Bap33 2011 Nov 4, 12:57am

elliemae says

Just to clarify, I said, "this isn't just an explanation..."

Not "his isn't..."

My point was that I'll follow God's law as soon as he appears in front of me and explains what the law is. My beliefs are very real to me - just as your religious beliefs are real to you, Bap. They're not right or wrong, they're personal beliefs.

I try not to get into religious conversations, because imho religions are often a competition about who is the more reverant. Religions are also a way to feel superior. In order for one to believe that their religion is the "true" one, he must believe that all others aren't "true." Praising God is an asinine way to feel superior to someone.

If there is a God, he's hovering over the "Shit on This Attitude" button on his own patnet.

Eschew Obfuscation

You are 100% correct on much of this. "Religion" is a man made thing, and that's why it fails. God did not make religion, man did. And that is why there are 800 different slices of the same loaf of bread. It is very silly, really, but in the quest for power/glory/money/whatever some men just started picking apart God's word to create their own niche. Silly men, messed it up.
Your view of wanting to hear and see what God wants from you - right from the horses mouth - is not rare. So far, you have been blessed by being born into freedom, safety, and health. That alone puts your existance into a minority of humanity. You can speak about religion or politics at will -- that is an even smaller minority. And, assuming your on-line persona matches the real world, you are a female with the power and wealth needed to have time and money for entertainment, such as net access and a home computer and the free time to enjoy them both .. an even smaller minority of humanity. It may be that God has blessed you to give you the chance to find him and share him with those less lucky than you. This era, this location, this time in man's existance, these will never be the same again. You have a very unique view, but it was provided for you. You have a very unique position in humanity, but you did not put yourself here. You only control the choices you make.

And hovering over the button .. excellant image. I kinda see a DEL/ALT/ESC pose with Earth on the screen ... lol

109

Truthplease 2011 Nov 4, 2:51am

Catholic is just a bunch of man rules. It has no special place in God's Church.

As a Catholic, I find offense in that statement. However, you are entitled to your opinion. The Catholic Church is the first Christian church founded by Jesus through St. Peter. Even though I participate in the Church because I believe that it is good as a whole, they will not sway my mind on certain topics.

We won't really find out until it is your time to die. Until then, believe whatever you want and try to live the best life you can.

110

TechGromit 2011 Nov 4, 3:06am

You only have time to grab one. What do you do?

That's an Easy one, I'd get the hell out of there.

111

leo707 2011 Nov 4, 3:46am

...I would say I could not follow the law aginst murder, adultry, and keeping the sabbath.

Ummm... so... who have you murdered? Have been convicted, or did you "get away with it?"

***on a side note, as forum participants are we legally obligated to report this confession?***

And, please tell me that your penchant for fucking other peoples spouses (adultery) is not related to the murdering.

112

leo707 2011 Nov 4, 4:07am

I say that based on the detailed examples given by Jesus, explaining how man can't do it.

Interesting I am unaware of these detailed examples can you post a bible reference where Jesus says no may is capable of following god's law?

All of the laws must be followed, and falling short by even a little itty bitty bit on any one law results in total failure

Right, from what I understand this is totally consistent with the bible.

So, what you are saying is that a person who eats a lobster (Leviticus 11:12) is just as guilty of breaking god's law as the person who rapes and murders children? Both go to hell, right?

Also, what you are saying is that no one is capable of following god's law. So, everyone goes to hell? (except Jesus of course)

I just want to make sure that I am understanding your position.

I have to say that I disagree on the ability of people to follow god's law. I think that if you were to go through the bible and list all of the "laws" you would find that many people --even many non-christians-- follow the laws, and an even greater number could with a few tweaks --i.e. not eating shellfish, wearing cotton wool blends, etc.-- would find their lives in perfect harmony with god's law.

I do understand that some people --like yourself perhaps-- have... certain... compulsions... and they cannot resist. I know that as humans it is often difficult to see the world through the eyes of another, but what you should probably understand is that others do not feel compelled to murder, cheat on their spouses, fuck married people or break any of the other, more damaging to society, laws of god.

113

Dan8267 2011 Nov 4, 5:33am

Bap33 says

...I would say I could not follow the law aginst murder, adultry, and keeping the sabbath.

Ummm... so... who have you murdered? Have been convicted, or did you "get away with it?"

Bap33, as your attorney, I advise you not to answer this question or any others.

114

Dan8267 2011 Nov 4, 5:44am

Your honor, I submit that there is amble evidence on patrick.net to support my client's plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, and I move to dismiss the trial and relocate my client to Arkham Asylum in lieu of police custody.

115

leo707 2011 Nov 4, 5:54am

Dan8267 says

Your honor, I submit that there is amble evidence on patrick.net to support my client's plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, and I move to dismiss the trial and relocate my client to Arkham Asylum in lieu of police custody.

See, my guess on Bap's religion is does not seem so funny now...

Bap33 says

What is "my religion" dude?

Hmmm... I am guessing fundamental christian juggalo.

I am guessing this will be the first poster on his cell wall:

Also, if I remember correctly there is another clown in Arkham Asylum that will keep him company.

116

Vicente 2011 Nov 4, 8:32am

elliemae says

Then throw the live baby covered in test tubes out the window and it'll be caught by the fire department that is waiting outside.

I like the way you think outside the box.

117 corntrollio 2011 Nov 4, 8:51am

are you suggesting that Christianity comes from Catholicism?

Well, there's also the Orthodox/Catholic split to consider, but hell yeah it does. Every Protestant faith was spun out of Catholicism. The bible covers this too -- St. Peter, the rock on which the church was built (aka Cephas in Greek).

I realize that fundies have a big problem with Catholics and have run across fundamentalist preachers saying insane stuff about Catholics before, so that's why I asked.

Also, if we're going to talk about stuff in the bible people violate all the time -- Deut. 22:11 about wearing two different fabrics.

118

Bap33 2011 Nov 4, 8:58am

leo,
you jumped all over there, so I have to tug you back a bit. The law is still in effect, every part, but the "reason" for the law was shared when Jesus showed up to tell the legalistic minds of his day that they were missing the point entirely. They were busy reading the OT and killing birds and caves to cover their sins (individual sacrafice was still needed), and did not understand what God had in mind for his people. At least, that's how I understand the Gospels to come about.

The Levitican laws not only detailed infractions, but also detailed compensation and punishment. If one checks it out, they will find that those who are put in charge of carrying out the law are held to a high standard.

Anyways, Jesus was the perfect sacrafice. His death covers the debt that all other men owe to God for not following the law. No more need to kill birds and cows when we sin. Now, when I say "all other men", that kinda is a tuff detail that I have my own thoughts about, but there are lots and lots of differing opinions. I do not beleive one must be dunked in a river to be saved from Hell. Some do. I do not believe there is any reason to pray to anyone but God (as the Law says and Jesus coached). Some pray to saints, virgins, and realitives trapped in a place they call Purgatory. The Bible I have, a KJV, says that those things are not right, and should not be done.

(this should fall under - "I think")The Levitican laws were for God's people (Hebrew/Jew?call what you wish). Those Jews that do not beleive the Jesus was the savior are still under that old law and better be following the rules and killing birds and cows and lambs and such. THe punishment for sins, like killing a male that is a sexual deviant, are not carried out by the state, and the people are under the laws of the state, so that part should not be held to them. But, I'm not sure, maybe they will be held accountable for not thowing off a Gov that refuses to follow the law(?). I'm pretty sure that is why that Roman judge had the Jews punish Jesus. The Roman law did not demand Jesus be put to death for claiming to be God, but the Levitican law demanded it. So, here in America, an old fashioned Jew is in a tuff spot. Unless the Jewish community has a full sub-set of leaders and laws and follow their own laws while in America.... kinda like the Indian Nation has in some states. I don't know if that exists anywhere. The arbas are better at getting a sub-set of laws acknowledged by American rulers, it seems.

As for my pointing out the laws I think I cant follow, my answer is based on the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said if you even get pissed at you brother and call him a fool, you have commited murder ... something about any hate in your heart is a bad thing. And Jesus said if you just lust at another woman with only your eyes, you commit adultery in your heart ... something about your soul will burn with that desire, making the act a very real possibility. And I do not keep the 7th day, Saturday, seperate for just the worship of God, and I sometimes actively try to earn money on that day. On this one Jesus made the legalistic Jews look stupid. They were able to keep Saturdays open because they lived in a mixed society, where non Jews could pick up any slack. So, they were used to sitting around doing nothing on Saturdays. They figured this made them holy or something. Anyways, on Saturday, just to piss off the legalistic Jews, Jesus would go to work, teaching folks on Satuday. His point was, they missed what it was God really had in mind for man on the 7th day. And now-a-days most religions focus on Sunday, and each has some reason. The fact is, the way I understand it, is GOd wanted us to bust ass for 6 days and be productive, and then kick back and rest one day to rest, enjoy life, play with our kids, paint an old ladies house for free, stuff like that. Work for 6, rest for 1. I do not think God really cares which of the 7 days you pick, just pick one and enjoy the blessing he gives you. That 7th day may be spent changing plugs in the pick-up, but that's life.

Anyways, there's my three. Your turn.

119

Bap33 2011 Nov 4, 9:19am

Bap33 says

are you suggesting that Christianity comes from Catholicism?

Well, there's also the Orthodox/Catholic split to consider, but hell yeah it does. Every Protestant faith was spun out of Catholicism. The bible covers this too -- St. Peter, the rock on which the church was built (aka Cephas in Greek).

I realize that fundies have a big problem with Catholics and have run across fundamentalist preachers saying insane stuff about Catholics before, so that's why I asked.

umm, well, you are wrong. Folks that believed that Jesus was Christ were here before he even got here. But, we can skip those folks and go to the folks that believed Jesus was the Christ while he was walking around the planet as God-in-a-bod. All of those people that beleived Jesus was the Christ at that time, were Christians. The story you tell about Peter, is odd. It suggests that you believe in the NT Bible and it's beginings. Or, that you want to just keep telling me I am an idiot for knowing some of this stuff. The time you waste searching for info is wasted. Pick up the Bible - you may like the KJV or New American Standard. Read Genesis, read leviticus, read Mathew, Mark, Luke, and read Revelations. That's about 3 nights of evening reading. You may enjoy the stories.

Christians were here before any Catholic rules and traditions that are 100% not allowed in the Bible.
The Rosery is a chanted prayer - that is not how God wants us to pray.
The Virgin Mary is held up and worshiped and prayed to - that is not allowed by God.
There are men called saints and worshiped and prayed to - that is not allowed by God.
There are men who are supposed to listen to your confession - that is not what God says to do.
They want you to pay to have prayer for dead family members to be removed from "Purgatory" - that is not Biblical at all.
They beleive a priest forgives sin - the Bible says no.
They desplay statues to be focused on in prayer - God said no graven images.
They depect angels and God in art - God said not to make art about things in Heaven.

The whole "dont eat meat on Friday" thing was pulled from thin air to help the starving Italian fisherman.

The entire Pope, Cardinal, Biship, Friar, Father, Priest system is a man made pile of nothingness. There is no Biblical base for any of it.

BUT, do not misunderstand, I do beleive there are many Catholics that will be saved by the blood of Christ, despite the wrong lessons they are being taught. THe heart will be judged, not the actions, I think.

120 corntrollio 2011 Nov 4, 9:44am

It suggests that you believe in the NT Bible and it's beginings.