patrick.net

austrian_man says

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I think the "Oh, God" movies covered this nicely, one of my days "Gods" are not exactly the same amount of time as one of yours. Makes logical sense. lets assume God is from Venus (for hypothetical purposes) Each Venus day is 243 earth days long. That give God 1,458 Earth days (Almost 4 years) to complete the task at hand.

thunderlips11 says

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

One of the biggest problems with the bible, it's subject to a wide variety of interpretation. What is a witch, who is a witch, who decides who is a witch? Can a man be a witch?

The second biggest problem is who ever is interrupting the message is close minded to other points of view. I attended Catholic school for 1st grade and was punished several times for asking why, pretty much the answer was, "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION GOD!!!". Big turn off for me, soured my whole opinion of the god issue. But since the message is so wide to interpretation, the message is really who are you to question me. (the interpreter of God's message).

It also true that even people we are devoted followers pretty much pick and choose what parts of it they will follow/obey. Show me anyone who "rests" on the 7th day (Sunday I assume) each week and devotes it to worship to God? Lots of people have to work on Sunday to support there families, and those that don't usually shop, do work around the house, go on vacations, etc. Believers may attend church for an hour or 2 on Sunday, but that's the extent of there 7th day worship. Pretty much none of them use the entire day to worship "him".

And if they are free to ignore parts of the bible, why can't I pick what parts I follow as well? Well that's all I have time for, my neighbor just left for work, going to covet his wife for a couple of hours.

nI the garden of eden, after adam and eve disobeyed and fell out of favor with God, he placed angels at the tree of life. This way mankind would not eat of it's fruit in their fallen state. since the devil (serpent- hint hint) deceived mankind into believing the lie that we could be equal with God (hint hint), he put mankind out of paradise. satan aka Lucifer had stolen the keys of eternal life frm you and from me. God's word says there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Jesus was our sacrificial lamb who died in our place, in fact he was born to die. See Isaiah 9.6. So during those three days, Jesus decended into hades, where the demons and devils rejoiced because they had killed God's son. When resurrection power filled Jesus and it was clear that death could not hold Him in it's power, he retrived the keys of our eternal life. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one can come to the Father except through me." Now either Jesus who walked on water, turned water into wine, paid taxes with a coin that he pulled from a fish, walked through walls, feed 5,000 with a few fish and loaves of bread, healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. So you can mock me, but I am forgiven and feel great! I know when I die thatI am going to heaven...how about you? do you want to join me? Jesus had madeaway of escape for you. John 3:16. God bless you!

Zachary says

I know when I die thatI am going to heaven...how about you? do you want to join me?

Frankly no.

If Valhalla doesn't pan out for me, I want to go wherever these chicks end up:

TechGromit says

For example if the bible said in the beginning God created the earth and populated it with huge monsters (dinosaurs) but they were deemed unworthy so god hurdled a rock from the heavens to destroy them and started again with Man.

I think you might find Genesis 1:21 interesting. "And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good."

The Hebrew expression translated "great sea monsters" can also literally mean "Great Reptiles". I can't say for sure Moses was referring to the dinosaurs here but always found it interesting as it sure seems like it.

TechGromit says

The bible says something like the earth is 6,000 years old, which has been clearly proven false.

Just some more food for thought. A lot of people figure the earth was created in 6,000 years because of 2 Peter 3:8 which states 'one day is with God as a thousand years.' So they read Genesis which talks about the creative days and come up with 6,000 years. However, Genesis doesn't give the length of God's creative days and 2 Peter 3:8 doesn't mean God has 1,000 year long days like our 24 hours. Actually if you read the Genesis account, it says that God proceeded to rest on the seventh day which means it never ended. So Moses was referring to long periods of time when writing about the creation account.

I suppose my point of this post is that the Bible has really been misrepresented by religion. And then you have people who preach fire and brimstone which is a big off. (Another misrepresentation since the Bible doesn't actually teach that there is a fiery hell. Just check out Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Kind of funny I find myself making a religious post on a thread about communism!

shrekgrinch says

Actually..and I know this coming from me will be a shocker...Communism a.k.a 'true socialism' is not a bad idea.

Who are you and what have you done with the real Shrek?

Zachary says

I feel bad that you aren't open to the truth.

Honey, I'm a rationalist. I'm way more open to the truth than you are. I'm more than willing to accept your god as real if you can prove it. Here's an easy way to do it. Have him stop by my place for a cup of tea and a chit-chat. Is Earl Gray okay?

Somehow, I doubt you are open to the possibility of being wrong though.

Zachary says

if you are willing to be objective for just 60 seconds

Being objective is all I do, baby. It goes with that whole "rationalist" thing.

Zachary says

what's wrong with the 10 Commandments and if folks adhered to them that all of society would be better off?

Society would not be better off with the Ten Commandments. But let's go through them one by one as you have listed them.

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

"Before Me"? So it's ok to have other gods just as long as we consider Yahweh the king of gods, like Zeus?

In any case, since this god doesn't exist -- as I have shown time and again, it's just a rip-off of earlier myths -- it does not make sense to worship it. Also, how petty is this god to demand worship. If I were a god -- and I have been called that in bed -- then I would not demand worship. I guess I'm just a little more secure in my omnipotence than Yahweh.

In any case, this "no other gods" mentality has been used as a justification for mass murder from the Crusades to the Inquisition to the Conquistadors to the Holocaust. So, there's certainly a down side to this commandment.

This crappy commandment was also used as justification for the destruction of at least two of the Wonders of the World: the Statue of Zeus and the Library of Alexandra. I'd like them both back, please.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

So all the statues of Jesus and Mary and the saints are evil works? All those crucifixes you see in Church are blasphemy. OK, but I don't mind getting rid of that crap. However, I do have one major problem with this commandment. It is utterly incompatible with the First Amendment of the Constitution, which I value more highly.

What kind of prick is your god if he doesn't even believe in free speech, the cornerstone of a cooperative, learning community? Sorry, but freedom of expression trumps a fictitious god's petty jealousy.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Aside from being petty, this also violates the principle of free speech.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Six days of labor? Sorry boss, but since the progressive movement we have a 5 day / 40 hour workweek. And that's progress. As for being mandated to worship some god on a particular day of the week, it violates freedom of religion.

Also, mindless church going tends to numb people's mind. The time would be better spent learning something about math, science, or history.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Except the false assertion that "the Lord your God is giving you" the land, which is a product of well understood physical forces and plate tectonics, I don't have a problem with this one, as long as it is not enforced by the state.

6. “You shall not murder.

Finally, a commandment we both can agree upon. Well, at least I agree with it. I'm not sure you Christians do because of your bloody and violent history and the current rhetoric spilling out of born-agains.

Murder is the intentional killing of another person without his permission. So, all those Crusades were evil, right? After all they were murdering Muslims. Furthermore, the U.S.-Iraq War that Bush started was evil. Right? After all, many civilians including women and children were murdered in that war.

Also, Rick Perry is an evil son-of-a-bitch for killing all those people on death row. Right? The death penalty is unacceptable if we aren't suppose to murder.

What about all the cops who have shot and killed people? Are you prepared to accept that as evil as well?

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

Yeah, I'm completely against adultery. But fornication on the other hand, is all good.

I would never sleep with someone else's wife. However, there is nothing here preventing me from sleeping with other single people.

8. “You shall not steal.

Way to go out on a limb here. Yep, I'll agree with this one. Of course, what constitutes stealing various greatly across culture. In Jesus's desert culture, it was not stealing to walk onto someone's property, pick apples off of his trees, and eat them. For everyone has the right to eat. It was only stealing if you left with apples in your hand. I doubt modern America shares that moral sentiment.

In any case, image trying to tell Jesus about Intellectual Property Laws. Jesus would get real confuse and ask, "how can you steal an idea?".

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Again, I agree with this.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Servant here is a euphemism for slave. I'm not for slavery so this commandment is axed. And dude, coveting a donkey is just plain sick.

Only half of the commandments have merit, and those half are not ideas that the Christians or the Israelites created. They appear in every culture in all of history. Out of those five commandments, only the anti-murder and anti-theft ones make sense as laws of the state.

And look at all the basic things missing from the Ten Commandments? Why aren't the following commandments, if these laws are so just?

- Thou shall not enslave others.
- Thou shall not rape.
- Thou shall not torture.
- Thou shall treat all people including women and foreigners equally.
- Thou shall not physically or psychologically harm others.
- Thou shall not suppress other people's ideas.
- Thou shall not force thy will upon others.
- Thou shall not pollute the Earth.
- Thou shall not drive other species to extinction.
- Thou shall not hinder science, for it saves lives and improves the quality of life.
- Thou shall not discourage the use of condoms, for it prevents AIDS.
- Thou shall not vote Republican.

You know, basic, decent morals.

Oh, and Zachary, you haven't addressed any of the issues I brought up. Start with this one.

If Jesus was such a great moral figure, then why didn't he condemn the practice of slavery, which was widespread in his community. Even his ancestors were slaves. You think he could have learned something form this.

TechGromit says

Can a man be a witch?

We prefer the term wizard.

Never tickle a sleeping dragon.

The Bible says nothing about the earth only being 6,000 years old and if ever took the time to read it instead of repeating what you've heard, you woud know that. The Bible also doesn't say "God helps those who help themselves." It also doesn't say that the earth is flat, but that it is a sphere...
What the Bible does say is that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, meaning that time doesn't exist in the hereafter, it's timeless. There are geneologies in the old and new testament that can be calculated (if they are 365 day years) to be interpreted that the earth is 5,000 to 6,000 years since man has been inhabiting the earth...but then again it doesn't say and it's subject to intepretation. Many of you believe in the science of evolution, but for me, you have to have more faithin Darwin to believe evolution than is needed to believe in creation. Show me an explosion that creates anything other than death and destruction, yet many of you mock me and believe in the big bang theory, rejcting the notion that we are wonderfully designed and crafted beings. I have an easier time believing that God created my eyebrows to keep the sweat from my forehead from going into my eyes. If you want to believe that an explosing created your face, okay LOL.

Dan,
Jesus did free the slaves.His kingdom was not of this world and that freedom came in he hereafter. There is a wonderful parable where the servant was hungry an the rich man abused his servant. The servant went to heaven and the rich man went to hades. Jesus was crucified by folks like you and me who wanted him to do things their way. when Jesus entered into Jerusalen the crowds shouted "Hosana, Hosana, the King is Coming!" They wanted Him to liberate them from the Romans...but His kingdom was not of this world. They wanted the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, but instead they got the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world...
Jesus is more interested in your eternity than the few years that we each spend on this earth. He who the on set's free, is free indeed!!!
Z

by the way guys, I was at Woodstock, a hippy, doper, drugs-sex-and rock and roll. I abused and mocked the Master as you do and thought that he was a peyote ucking madman. If you want Jesus to come and have tea with you, ask Him nicely and with a genuine heart...and you may be surprised. Don't worry, he knows your every thought and the number of hairs on your head. you can't jive him. So when you truly ready, be open to accept a miracle, because he will come to you in the form of the Holy Spirit. That's a fact!

Why do you blame the evils of the world on Jesus? Why don't you cry against the thugs who slapped him, spat on him, bunched him, wipped him, and nailed his hands and feet to a wooden cross? His blood was spilled and he did nothing to deserve that punishment. Read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 booth written hundreds and a thousand years before his birth if you are open to understanding that he was born to die in your place as a blood atonement for your sins and mine. freedom is yours when you get to the point that you know you've made a shambles of your life and you need him to fix you...like a potter with the clay creating a new and beautiful vessel, Jesus can free you, heal you, and give you the peace that passes all understanding. That' a fact. I have to get back to work...

So let me get this straight.

2000 years ago, in the backwater of Israel, a Jewish kid was born to an unmarried woman, apparently impregnated by a Supernatural Force. Instead of being stoned to death as called for by the Law, her Fiance took pity on her and married her.

Instead of being born and living in Alexandria or Rome, which were huge cities and both a nexus of communication.

When he grew up, he walked around turning water into wine, but he knew he had to die to save mankind. He still didn't go to a major center of population where many more could witness his miracles and spread the word faster.

After praying to himself: "Myself, to myself, let this cup pass away from myself", he used his Godly powers to crucify himself, although it's unclear what the sacrifice was since he was immortal and wouldn't die anyway, just go back into heaven to join the other 2/3 of himself.

Or he could have bypassed the whole crucifixion process, and, being god, simply changed the nature of man to be less sinful.

In any case, he came back somehow for a few days (or a few years), before returning to heaven and promising he'd "Come back soon." His followers proclaimed him, "Nigh! At the very door." His followers, who have been given the status of saints, said there are people alive today who would see him return in all his Glory.

That was 2000 years ago.

Excuse me if I don't believe this story.

Zachary says

The Bible says nothing about the earth only being 6,000 years old and if ever took the time to read it instead of repeating what you've heard, you woud know that.

Perhaps not specifically, as I always said, the Bible's main problem it suffers from who is interrupting it, who is translating it, what the political agenda is of those that interrupting it.
Zachary says

... yet many of you mock me and believe in the big bang theory ...

I wouldn't say I would mock you. My main problem with anyone really religious is they tend to be closed minded about debating what is written in it. Logical arguments are often met with verses quoted from the bible and put forth as absolute fact, there can be no doubting there words.

But you have to admit the bible has been re-written a dozen times. We have the New Testament, The king James version, the book of Mormon, Catholic, Protestant. In fact there are 8 primary versions of the bible each is a translation of the original. Many contain errors since there were not properly translated. Only the Jewish Tanach is unique that there is only one version that is the same no matter where you find it in the world.

You could argue that they are all based on the original text and that just translations of the original. But if this is true, why then does the The Protestant Bible has 66 books and the Catholics has 68 inspired Holy Spirit Books? Obviously someone added there own material to the original subject matter.

Which one do we follow? What happens when one contradicts the another? Actually the bible itself has a number of Bible Inconsistencies in it, without ever comparing different versions.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."
GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

to name a few. Actually the last is my favorite. First God gives approval for a incest marriage than turns around and says incest is wrong. I'm getting mixed signals here.

Maybe we need to add another line to the whole God is a vengeful god, God is a jealous god, God is angry. With, "God is a schizophrenic".

Or he needed a word processor when he wrote this thing, this text needed a lot of proof reading before being published.

thunderlips11 says

Or he could have bypassed the whole crucifixion process, and, being god, simply changed the nature of man to be less sinful.

I'm not much of a believer, but I can tell you this. Jesus if there was such a person, wouldn't do that, for the simple fact we have free will. To change us by using "magical" or "holy" powers violates the whole free will issue.

thunderlips11 says

In any case, he came back somehow for a few days (or a few years), before returning to heaven ...

We really need some independent verification here. All we have is the word of the people were his devoted followers. I have little doubt the resurrection could have been staged to fool his followers to strengthen the faith. ie. a lookalike, obscuring his features with a hooded robe, etc.

@TechG,

Man was created last in my book.

water
water life
plants and fish
creepy crawlers
birds and lizards (Dino goes here)
animals with fur (caveman goes here)
man1.0 (live long time)(female is part of "man")
Giants from Angles breeding with Women (Nephlim)(Pyramid Builders)
Flood
man2.0 (live less time)
tower of Bable (seperates man by tounge)
man2.1, .2, .3 (the races of negroid, mongloid, caucazoid, abariginy) (sorry for bad spelling, feeling lazy)

And here we sit, man2.0

Bap33 says

Giants from Angles breeding with Women (Nephlim)(Pyramid Builders)

Omg, I thought even Christian fundamentalist didn't believe in the whole Angels banging women and having Giant babies that built the pyramids. That's almost as ridiculous as the time this archeologist tried to convince me that the Egyptian pyramids were actually landing platforms for space ships and the Egyptian gods were alien worm-like parasites that took control of humans.

You know, if you're going to take serious the idea of horny Angels banging Earth girls and making Giants like Hagrid seriously, I guess there's really no point in trying to introduce a bit of rationality into the conversation. I yield.

Zachary says

Jesus did free the slaves.His kingdom was not of this world and that freedom came in he hereafter.

So, then there was no point in freeing people from slavery on Earth then? Please tell that to a black guy you find in the middle of Brooklyn at midnight.

thunderlips, if Jesus forced you to be less sinful then you would complain that he was making you a slave. Freedom...freedom of choice is His heart. He doesn't want to command that you love Him. He wants you to love Him because He first loves you and gave himself for you. There is no greater love than to give ones life for a friend.

@TechGromit- there is no doubt that man can just about screw anything up. I believe that there are enough ancient manuscripts that prove that the old testament and new testaments haven't changed much over time. The dead sea scrolls show that holy men of God protected these documents with their lives. Just comaring the dead sea scrolls with modern text is amazing. Jesus said I must go (for he could only be in one place at one time, but I will send my comforter, the Holy Spirit. Seek the Holy Spirit with an open heart and you'll be amazed at the outcome.

@Dan- you're a funny guy.

@Dan-I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.
You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend. Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Zachary says

thunderlips, if Jesus forced you to be less sinful then you would complain that he was making you a slave. Freedom...freedom of choice is His heart. He doesn't want to command that you love Him. He wants you to love Him because He first loves you and gave himself for you. There is no greater love than to give ones life for a friend.

Exodus 4:21.

If God hardened the Pharaoh's heart against letting the Hebrews go, did the Pharaoh have free will? Nope.

How could my cat wish to be vegetarian, when his biochemistry, anatomy and psychological makeup gears him to be a carnivore? Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator.

Judeo-Christianity, by it's own testaments, is counter to free will.

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

What I love about Christianity compared to other religions is this, with many religions one has to purify himself to become closer to God or godlike.Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good. I tried eastern religions while in college and I found it difficult to twist myself into a pretzel and to think pure thoughts. Like I said, I was born in Brooklyn and in a fairly tough neighborhood. So becoming godlike was beyond my comprehension and intellect. So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy, whereas, with christianity, Jesus accept us in our sin, and He cleans us up and makes us worthy. My holiness and righteousness has nothing to do with my ability to be holy, it's simply through accepting that He is my blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifices are found in many religions in Africa, South America, and well as Judeo-Christianity. I am righteous because the only perfect person who ever walked on this earth has been invited to live in my heart.

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Z

Zachary says

So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy

Ascetic life and self denial may be part of what some "religions" suggest as a path to "enlightenment" which is a little different from what Christians consider holy.

But as for self denial and sin,... I believe that many Buddhists don't see sex as being as sinful as many american Christians do. It's the Christians, especially the fundamentalists and the Catholics who have the issues with sex. I have to agree that it is confusing to have sex on the one hand, part of our hard wiring and at the core of our reproductive drive, but then also somehow within the devil's domain.

Hey Marcus,
Welcome to the discussion. You know what always intrigued me...how much the those who led their lives with their reproductive drive or little head...ended up wih some many venerial diseases. How can something that feels so good turn into stuff like HIV and AIDS, Chlamydia, Gonorrhoea, Genital herpes, Genital warts, Trichomonas, Bacterial vaginosis,
Vaginal thrush (female candidiasis), Syphilis, Scabies, Molluscum contagiosum, and Crabs (pubic lice)???
So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

Zachary says

I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.

Wow, you completely missed my point. I wasn't talking about gang-bangers.

My point was that a person who can trace his ancestry back to slaves in this country might not think that "Earthly" slavery is unimportant. So my point stands. If Jesus is such an moral figure, why didn't he denounce slavery, a practice that was common place in his society?

If your answer is that injustices on Earth don't matter, than why should we stop any injustice? Why should we prevent a second Holocaust if nothing on Earth matters? If, on the other hand, you like me believe that things like genocide should be prevented because they are wrong, then why didn't Jesus condemn slavery?

Again, I'm not asking why Jesus didn't end slavery. After all, he wasn't a god. But even a man can say slavery is bad.

Zachary says

You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend.

No I haven't. And the thing is, neither have you. At most, you have experienced something strongly emotional which you misinterpret as being supernatural. It's an unfortunately common mistake of your species. Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Zachary says

Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Like many, you mistake skepticism for close mindedness. I have studied quantum mechanics. You have to have an open mind to understand that.

However, I do not accept things without reason. And every attempt to explain phenomenon with mysticism and the supernatural have failed. Whereas science and mathematics have consistently produced tangible results.

If you are so "open-minded" compared to me, are you willing to accept the existence of many other gods than "The Holy Trinity"? Are you willing to accept that there are trillions of life-sustaining planets in our universe each with their own gods? Are you willing to accept the possibility that there are gods far more powerful than Yahweh? If not, I fail to see how you are open minded.

You reject all gods but one. I simply take your logic one step further. Once you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours. The only reason you worship Jesus is because of a long series of accidents left the Jesus myth the last standing savior myth from the Iron Age. Alter history slightly and you would be worshiping Bob the Savior.

Zachary says

This horse is far from dead...

By the way Zac, did you even watch the video clip I provided? How can you rationalize away the blatant plagiarism of the Jesus myth?

Here's that clip again.

And the more in depth video.

Zachary says

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

"Facilitated a process"? C'mon, Zach. All you've done here is play with words, like calling torture, "Difficult Questioning" or "Extreme Interrogation".

I think it's fair to say that a plain reading of the Bible, in context, suggests that God changed Pharaoh's mind with his godlike powers.

Maybe God is evil, and when men sin God has simply "Hardened their hearts" to do bad things, and gets a psychopathic giggle out of the whole thing.

Like the way that smelly kid in HS used to torture squirrels.
Zachary says

Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good.

Whoa nelly. I often say "Oh sweet Jesus" when I stub my toe, that is not a statement of faith. I granted sin as being real for the sake of argument: If Men's sinful nature exists, then it is the fault of the Creator who made them that way, since an omnipotent creator could have created them to be sinless. That he chose not to is evidence that he is either A) Not omnipotent (he makes mistakes) or B) He's not Omnibeneficient, since he allows sin to exist and punishes men for something they are naturally drawn to.

Zachary says

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Your evangelical mind tricks won't work on me. :)

My wife beating days are over.

Besides, if God exists, then my atheism is his will.

Zachary says

So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

These diseases are higher in countries that ban contraception, restrict contraception, don't educate children on contraception, or are too poor to afford contraception.

Somewhere if Africa, young Mr. Mobotu is having sex for the first time, without a condom. Despite his regular church attendance, this one fall off the wagon into sin is going to cost him his life from AIDS.

On the other hand, at some swinger's club in Atlanta, a whole bunch of people are engaging in an orgy. Because they're wearing condoms, they won't pass their diseases on and many of them completely STD free and will be their whole lives.

God punishes people very strangely if you asks me. That, or taking proper precautions greatly reduces risk while allowing all the fun.

Dan8267 says

Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Dan, thanks for this, pretty wild stuff.

I don't know, why don't you ask him why he didn't denounce slavery? Like I said before, his mission was spirititual freedom. Perhap He used his servant, Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves.

Why are you blaming Jesus for all of the sins of man and next you will be talking to me about landslides and hurricaine deaths...come on....if you want perfection then you had better get saved and die.

Danny boy--- how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural? Hmmmm you're wrong.

Forgive me for not putting much creedance into what Bill Maher has to say about Horus.

wow, thunderlips....God is love andnot how you describe Him at all. You'll see....

really? people in the USA are contracting HIV all the time,not only in Africa and that's a fact. During 2009, there were an estimated 42,959 new diagnoses of HIV infection in the 40 states and five dependent areas

Zachary says

how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural?

People have convinced themselves they've seen everything from ghosts to fairies to flying pink elephants. Doesn't make them right. As long as your vision doesn't lead you to kill your family before The Rapture or something you are considered "mostly harmless".

This "God of Love" that requires weekly or daily prayers and intervenes in all kinds of personal lives, that doesn't make any damn sense at all. You pray that cancer away real good now you hear! Maybe he's just got a sadistic sense of humor, he must have had a great laugh from this stunt:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/01/19/brazil.churchcollapse/index.html