patrick.net

The Bible says nothing about the earth only being 6,000 years old and if ever took the time to read it instead of repeating what you've heard, you woud know that. The Bible also doesn't say "God helps those who help themselves." It also doesn't say that the earth is flat, but that it is a sphere...
What the Bible does say is that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day, meaning that time doesn't exist in the hereafter, it's timeless. There are geneologies in the old and new testament that can be calculated (if they are 365 day years) to be interpreted that the earth is 5,000 to 6,000 years since man has been inhabiting the earth...but then again it doesn't say and it's subject to intepretation. Many of you believe in the science of evolution, but for me, you have to have more faithin Darwin to believe evolution than is needed to believe in creation. Show me an explosion that creates anything other than death and destruction, yet many of you mock me and believe in the big bang theory, rejcting the notion that we are wonderfully designed and crafted beings. I have an easier time believing that God created my eyebrows to keep the sweat from my forehead from going into my eyes. If you want to believe that an explosing created your face, okay LOL.

Dan,
Jesus did free the slaves.His kingdom was not of this world and that freedom came in he hereafter. There is a wonderful parable where the servant was hungry an the rich man abused his servant. The servant went to heaven and the rich man went to hades. Jesus was crucified by folks like you and me who wanted him to do things their way. when Jesus entered into Jerusalen the crowds shouted "Hosana, Hosana, the King is Coming!" They wanted Him to liberate them from the Romans...but His kingdom was not of this world. They wanted the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, but instead they got the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world...
Jesus is more interested in your eternity than the few years that we each spend on this earth. He who the on set's free, is free indeed!!!
Z

by the way guys, I was at Woodstock, a hippy, doper, drugs-sex-and rock and roll. I abused and mocked the Master as you do and thought that he was a peyote ucking madman. If you want Jesus to come and have tea with you, ask Him nicely and with a genuine heart...and you may be surprised. Don't worry, he knows your every thought and the number of hairs on your head. you can't jive him. So when you truly ready, be open to accept a miracle, because he will come to you in the form of the Holy Spirit. That's a fact!

Why do you blame the evils of the world on Jesus? Why don't you cry against the thugs who slapped him, spat on him, bunched him, wipped him, and nailed his hands and feet to a wooden cross? His blood was spilled and he did nothing to deserve that punishment. Read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 booth written hundreds and a thousand years before his birth if you are open to understanding that he was born to die in your place as a blood atonement for your sins and mine. freedom is yours when you get to the point that you know you've made a shambles of your life and you need him to fix you...like a potter with the clay creating a new and beautiful vessel, Jesus can free you, heal you, and give you the peace that passes all understanding. That' a fact. I have to get back to work...

So let me get this straight.

2000 years ago, in the backwater of Israel, a Jewish kid was born to an unmarried woman, apparently impregnated by a Supernatural Force. Instead of being stoned to death as called for by the Law, her Fiance took pity on her and married her.

Instead of being born and living in Alexandria or Rome, which were huge cities and both a nexus of communication.

When he grew up, he walked around turning water into wine, but he knew he had to die to save mankind. He still didn't go to a major center of population where many more could witness his miracles and spread the word faster.

After praying to himself: "Myself, to myself, let this cup pass away from myself", he used his Godly powers to crucify himself, although it's unclear what the sacrifice was since he was immortal and wouldn't die anyway, just go back into heaven to join the other 2/3 of himself.

Or he could have bypassed the whole crucifixion process, and, being god, simply changed the nature of man to be less sinful.

In any case, he came back somehow for a few days (or a few years), before returning to heaven and promising he'd "Come back soon." His followers proclaimed him, "Nigh! At the very door." His followers, who have been given the status of saints, said there are people alive today who would see him return in all his Glory.

That was 2000 years ago.

Excuse me if I don't believe this story.

Zachary says

The Bible says nothing about the earth only being 6,000 years old and if ever took the time to read it instead of repeating what you've heard, you woud know that.

Perhaps not specifically, as I always said, the Bible's main problem it suffers from who is interrupting it, who is translating it, what the political agenda is of those that interrupting it.
Zachary says

... yet many of you mock me and believe in the big bang theory ...

I wouldn't say I would mock you. My main problem with anyone really religious is they tend to be closed minded about debating what is written in it. Logical arguments are often met with verses quoted from the bible and put forth as absolute fact, there can be no doubting there words.

But you have to admit the bible has been re-written a dozen times. We have the New Testament, The king James version, the book of Mormon, Catholic, Protestant. In fact there are 8 primary versions of the bible each is a translation of the original. Many contain errors since there were not properly translated. Only the Jewish Tanach is unique that there is only one version that is the same no matter where you find it in the world.

You could argue that they are all based on the original text and that just translations of the original. But if this is true, why then does the The Protestant Bible has 66 books and the Catholics has 68 inspired Holy Spirit Books? Obviously someone added there own material to the original subject matter.

Which one do we follow? What happens when one contradicts the another? Actually the bible itself has a number of Bible Inconsistencies in it, without ever comparing different versions.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."
GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

to name a few. Actually the last is my favorite. First God gives approval for a incest marriage than turns around and says incest is wrong. I'm getting mixed signals here.

Maybe we need to add another line to the whole God is a vengeful god, God is a jealous god, God is angry. With, "God is a schizophrenic".

Or he needed a word processor when he wrote this thing, this text needed a lot of proof reading before being published.

thunderlips11 says

Or he could have bypassed the whole crucifixion process, and, being god, simply changed the nature of man to be less sinful.

I'm not much of a believer, but I can tell you this. Jesus if there was such a person, wouldn't do that, for the simple fact we have free will. To change us by using "magical" or "holy" powers violates the whole free will issue.

thunderlips11 says

In any case, he came back somehow for a few days (or a few years), before returning to heaven ...

We really need some independent verification here. All we have is the word of the people were his devoted followers. I have little doubt the resurrection could have been staged to fool his followers to strengthen the faith. ie. a lookalike, obscuring his features with a hooded robe, etc.

@TechG,

Man was created last in my book.

water
water life
plants and fish
creepy crawlers
birds and lizards (Dino goes here)
animals with fur (caveman goes here)
man1.0 (live long time)(female is part of "man")
Giants from Angles breeding with Women (Nephlim)(Pyramid Builders)
Flood
man2.0 (live less time)
tower of Bable (seperates man by tounge)
man2.1, .2, .3 (the races of negroid, mongloid, caucazoid, abariginy) (sorry for bad spelling, feeling lazy)

And here we sit, man2.0

Bap33 says

Giants from Angles breeding with Women (Nephlim)(Pyramid Builders)

Omg, I thought even Christian fundamentalist didn't believe in the whole Angels banging women and having Giant babies that built the pyramids. That's almost as ridiculous as the time this archeologist tried to convince me that the Egyptian pyramids were actually landing platforms for space ships and the Egyptian gods were alien worm-like parasites that took control of humans.

You know, if you're going to take serious the idea of horny Angels banging Earth girls and making Giants like Hagrid seriously, I guess there's really no point in trying to introduce a bit of rationality into the conversation. I yield.

Zachary says

Jesus did free the slaves.His kingdom was not of this world and that freedom came in he hereafter.

So, then there was no point in freeing people from slavery on Earth then? Please tell that to a black guy you find in the middle of Brooklyn at midnight.

thunderlips, if Jesus forced you to be less sinful then you would complain that he was making you a slave. Freedom...freedom of choice is His heart. He doesn't want to command that you love Him. He wants you to love Him because He first loves you and gave himself for you. There is no greater love than to give ones life for a friend.

@TechGromit- there is no doubt that man can just about screw anything up. I believe that there are enough ancient manuscripts that prove that the old testament and new testaments haven't changed much over time. The dead sea scrolls show that holy men of God protected these documents with their lives. Just comaring the dead sea scrolls with modern text is amazing. Jesus said I must go (for he could only be in one place at one time, but I will send my comforter, the Holy Spirit. Seek the Holy Spirit with an open heart and you'll be amazed at the outcome.

@Dan- you're a funny guy.

@Dan-I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.
You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend. Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Zachary says

thunderlips, if Jesus forced you to be less sinful then you would complain that he was making you a slave. Freedom...freedom of choice is His heart. He doesn't want to command that you love Him. He wants you to love Him because He first loves you and gave himself for you. There is no greater love than to give ones life for a friend.

Exodus 4:21.

If God hardened the Pharaoh's heart against letting the Hebrews go, did the Pharaoh have free will? Nope.

How could my cat wish to be vegetarian, when his biochemistry, anatomy and psychological makeup gears him to be a carnivore? Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator.

Judeo-Christianity, by it's own testaments, is counter to free will.

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

What I love about Christianity compared to other religions is this, with many religions one has to purify himself to become closer to God or godlike.Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good. I tried eastern religions while in college and I found it difficult to twist myself into a pretzel and to think pure thoughts. Like I said, I was born in Brooklyn and in a fairly tough neighborhood. So becoming godlike was beyond my comprehension and intellect. So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy, whereas, with christianity, Jesus accept us in our sin, and He cleans us up and makes us worthy. My holiness and righteousness has nothing to do with my ability to be holy, it's simply through accepting that He is my blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifices are found in many religions in Africa, South America, and well as Judeo-Christianity. I am righteous because the only perfect person who ever walked on this earth has been invited to live in my heart.

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Z

Zachary says

So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy

Ascetic life and self denial may be part of what some "religions" suggest as a path to "enlightenment" which is a little different from what Christians consider holy.

But as for self denial and sin,... I believe that many Buddhists don't see sex as being as sinful as many american Christians do. It's the Christians, especially the fundamentalists and the Catholics who have the issues with sex. I have to agree that it is confusing to have sex on the one hand, part of our hard wiring and at the core of our reproductive drive, but then also somehow within the devil's domain.

Hey Marcus,
Welcome to the discussion. You know what always intrigued me...how much the those who led their lives with their reproductive drive or little head...ended up wih some many venerial diseases. How can something that feels so good turn into stuff like HIV and AIDS, Chlamydia, Gonorrhoea, Genital herpes, Genital warts, Trichomonas, Bacterial vaginosis,
Vaginal thrush (female candidiasis), Syphilis, Scabies, Molluscum contagiosum, and Crabs (pubic lice)???
So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

Zachary says

I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.

Wow, you completely missed my point. I wasn't talking about gang-bangers.

My point was that a person who can trace his ancestry back to slaves in this country might not think that "Earthly" slavery is unimportant. So my point stands. If Jesus is such an moral figure, why didn't he denounce slavery, a practice that was common place in his society?

If your answer is that injustices on Earth don't matter, than why should we stop any injustice? Why should we prevent a second Holocaust if nothing on Earth matters? If, on the other hand, you like me believe that things like genocide should be prevented because they are wrong, then why didn't Jesus condemn slavery?

Again, I'm not asking why Jesus didn't end slavery. After all, he wasn't a god. But even a man can say slavery is bad.

Zachary says

You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend.

No I haven't. And the thing is, neither have you. At most, you have experienced something strongly emotional which you misinterpret as being supernatural. It's an unfortunately common mistake of your species. Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Zachary says

Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Like many, you mistake skepticism for close mindedness. I have studied quantum mechanics. You have to have an open mind to understand that.

However, I do not accept things without reason. And every attempt to explain phenomenon with mysticism and the supernatural have failed. Whereas science and mathematics have consistently produced tangible results.

If you are so "open-minded" compared to me, are you willing to accept the existence of many other gods than "The Holy Trinity"? Are you willing to accept that there are trillions of life-sustaining planets in our universe each with their own gods? Are you willing to accept the possibility that there are gods far more powerful than Yahweh? If not, I fail to see how you are open minded.

You reject all gods but one. I simply take your logic one step further. Once you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours. The only reason you worship Jesus is because of a long series of accidents left the Jesus myth the last standing savior myth from the Iron Age. Alter history slightly and you would be worshiping Bob the Savior.

Zachary says

This horse is far from dead...

By the way Zac, did you even watch the video clip I provided? How can you rationalize away the blatant plagiarism of the Jesus myth?

Here's that clip again.

And the more in depth video.

Zachary says

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

"Facilitated a process"? C'mon, Zach. All you've done here is play with words, like calling torture, "Difficult Questioning" or "Extreme Interrogation".

I think it's fair to say that a plain reading of the Bible, in context, suggests that God changed Pharaoh's mind with his godlike powers.

Maybe God is evil, and when men sin God has simply "Hardened their hearts" to do bad things, and gets a psychopathic giggle out of the whole thing.

Like the way that smelly kid in HS used to torture squirrels.
Zachary says

Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good.

Whoa nelly. I often say "Oh sweet Jesus" when I stub my toe, that is not a statement of faith. I granted sin as being real for the sake of argument: If Men's sinful nature exists, then it is the fault of the Creator who made them that way, since an omnipotent creator could have created them to be sinless. That he chose not to is evidence that he is either A) Not omnipotent (he makes mistakes) or B) He's not Omnibeneficient, since he allows sin to exist and punishes men for something they are naturally drawn to.

Zachary says

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Your evangelical mind tricks won't work on me. :)

My wife beating days are over.

Besides, if God exists, then my atheism is his will.

Zachary says

So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

These diseases are higher in countries that ban contraception, restrict contraception, don't educate children on contraception, or are too poor to afford contraception.

Somewhere if Africa, young Mr. Mobotu is having sex for the first time, without a condom. Despite his regular church attendance, this one fall off the wagon into sin is going to cost him his life from AIDS.

On the other hand, at some swinger's club in Atlanta, a whole bunch of people are engaging in an orgy. Because they're wearing condoms, they won't pass their diseases on and many of them completely STD free and will be their whole lives.

God punishes people very strangely if you asks me. That, or taking proper precautions greatly reduces risk while allowing all the fun.

Dan8267 says

Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Dan, thanks for this, pretty wild stuff.

I don't know, why don't you ask him why he didn't denounce slavery? Like I said before, his mission was spirititual freedom. Perhap He used his servant, Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves.

Why are you blaming Jesus for all of the sins of man and next you will be talking to me about landslides and hurricaine deaths...come on....if you want perfection then you had better get saved and die.

Danny boy--- how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural? Hmmmm you're wrong.

Forgive me for not putting much creedance into what Bill Maher has to say about Horus.

wow, thunderlips....God is love andnot how you describe Him at all. You'll see....

really? people in the USA are contracting HIV all the time,not only in Africa and that's a fact. During 2009, there were an estimated 42,959 new diagnoses of HIV infection in the 40 states and five dependent areas

Zachary says

how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural?

People have convinced themselves they've seen everything from ghosts to fairies to flying pink elephants. Doesn't make them right. As long as your vision doesn't lead you to kill your family before The Rapture or something you are considered "mostly harmless".

This "God of Love" that requires weekly or daily prayers and intervenes in all kinds of personal lives, that doesn't make any damn sense at all. You pray that cancer away real good now you hear! Maybe he's just got a sadistic sense of humor, he must have had a great laugh from this stunt:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/01/19/brazil.churchcollapse/index.html

Google "the god helmet"??? are you kidding me. Tune in and get turned on. You are way off base here brother and don't even know how out of touch you are with "true" reality that is eternal. You are living in a temporal existence full of fear and doubt. You are afraid to get into mainstream religion becuase your liberal friends will think that you've become a whacko. You're missing the beauty and peace that receiving the miracles of Jesus Christ can bring into your life. You see, you are debating with you mind out of unbelief...but I have had the resurrection power enter my life. My experience is beautiful and your doubt is an empty clanging bell. You could never convince me because I've already walked in your shoes, but you have never walked in mine. I know this because if you ever truly knew Jesus, you could never say the stuff that you say.

Vicente--- do you believe in electricity? can you see it? I think you must be crazy too then :-)

Zachary says

Vicente--- do you believe in electricity? can you see it? I think you must be crazy too then :-)

Whether I "believe in electricity" or not, it's a demonstrable fact. I don't need to see electrons with my naked eye. Nor do I need to "see" the Ebola virus. There is ample observable and repeatable evidence of their existence that does not require my ability to "see it". I can stick a fork in an electric socket and get a personal demonstration.

Your Personal God however, is no more evident to me than any other fairy tale imagined in many thousands of years. I'm sure the first shamans knew the tricks of "you must have FAITH in my visions" and little has changed since. Let me know what I can do to get him to poke his head out. I've already tried standing out during a thunderstorm and blaspheming his name and daring him to strike me dead.

Ah Vicente,
But God loves you and tht's why you are still alive. I don't know what happened to you that makes you so bitter against Him. I'm sure in your own heart you believe that you have a right to hate Him. As for me, I filter the bad stuff up to knowing that God loves me and even though we have long suffered through sickness and difficulties, there have been so many blessings.
My friends prayed for me to get job and for my run-away dog of two weeks to be found and returned to me. In 12 hours I had my dog and a job. Mt fertility doctor told me that I had the lowest sperm count that he had ever encountered in his practice. Yet God told me in prayer to praise Him for my children and in 30 days my wife got pregnant. I have two sons who are 100% mine, there is no denying tht they came from my gene pool. My pastor had a dislocated arm, we prayed for him and heard a "pop." His arm went right back into place. There are so many wonderful answers to prayer that all of these sp-called "brain-washed" Christians have experienced. the best partis we love God, love ourselves now, love others, and are enjoying our life on this earth with the assurance that when we die, we will see that light loving light...Jesus Christ.

Zachary says

He used his servant, Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves.

And it took him 2000 years to come around to banning slavery? If you're going to make that kind of stretch, you might as well claim that Hitler was also Jesus's servant, as Jesus really wanted the Autobahn built.

Zachary says

Why are you blaming Jesus for all of the sins of man and next you will be talking to me about landslides and hurricaine deaths

No, that's the kind of irrational train of thought that religion promotes. I blame landslides and hurricanes on the laws of nature. No god is needed to explain anything in nature.

Zachary says

Danny boy--- how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural? Hmmmm you're wrong.

The same way I can tell you that you have never ridden a unicorn.

Zachary says

Forgive me for not putting much creedance into what Bill Maher has to say about Horus.

Then carbon date the scrolls yourself or do some secondary research. You got the entire knowledge of mankind at your fingertips. Use it. It's not hard looking up scientific facts from reputable archeological organizations. If you can't find ample evidence yourself that every holy story about Jesus was a rip-off copy of an older myth then you are either extremely lazy, or worse, willfully ignorant.

Whenever your religion contradicts science or historical fact, your religion is wrong.

Zachary says

wow, thunderlips....God is love andnot how you describe Him at all. You'll see....

Zachary, you're making a lot of claims, but you're not providing evidence for them.

One source written by unknown authors isn't enough evidence, since extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. But even the Bible discounts most of your theology:

For example, where in the Bible does it say that "God is Love"?

Here's what God has to say about God:
"I am a JEALOUS God." Is Jealousy a part of pure love?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." God makes BOTH good things and bad things, not just the good things.

"I (Jesus) have come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Is war love?
"The brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death." - wouldn't a loving God prevent this kind of violence and dissention?

Speaking of Free Will:
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

If God punishes transgressions of the father by punishing the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons, what about the free will of these successive generations? Their punishment is not the result of their own actions...

In any case, I won't see anything in all likelihood, because there is no evidence of life after death.

thunderlips11 says

For example, where in the Bible does it say that "God is Love"?

1 John 4:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

It also says in the Bible that our perspective on things is not God's perspective as one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

P N Dr Lo R says

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Okay, so how does that square with the other quotes I mentioned above?

...And the slaughter of all the Egyptian first-born (most of whom had nothing to do with the Pharaoh's decision), the killing of the kids who made fun of Elisha by sending the she-bears to tear them to shreds, the destruction of the Ameleks, including the old and the non-virgin women and all the male babies, Jesus' promise to tear apart families, etc.

Please explain how that is God expressing Love for mankind.

For every verse that attests to God's goodness, I can find a verse where he attests to his own jealousy, cruelty and vengeful attitude by word or deed.