patrick.net

@TechGromit- there is no doubt that man can just about screw anything up. I believe that there are enough ancient manuscripts that prove that the old testament and new testaments haven't changed much over time. The dead sea scrolls show that holy men of God protected these documents with their lives. Just comaring the dead sea scrolls with modern text is amazing. Jesus said I must go (for he could only be in one place at one time, but I will send my comforter, the Holy Spirit. Seek the Holy Spirit with an open heart and you'll be amazed at the outcome.

@Dan- you're a funny guy.

@Dan-I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.
You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend. Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Zachary says

thunderlips, if Jesus forced you to be less sinful then you would complain that he was making you a slave. Freedom...freedom of choice is His heart. He doesn't want to command that you love Him. He wants you to love Him because He first loves you and gave himself for you. There is no greater love than to give ones life for a friend.

Exodus 4:21.

If God hardened the Pharaoh's heart against letting the Hebrews go, did the Pharaoh have free will? Nope.

How could my cat wish to be vegetarian, when his biochemistry, anatomy and psychological makeup gears him to be a carnivore? Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator.

Judeo-Christianity, by it's own testaments, is counter to free will.

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

What I love about Christianity compared to other religions is this, with many religions one has to purify himself to become closer to God or godlike.Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good. I tried eastern religions while in college and I found it difficult to twist myself into a pretzel and to think pure thoughts. Like I said, I was born in Brooklyn and in a fairly tough neighborhood. So becoming godlike was beyond my comprehension and intellect. So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy, whereas, with christianity, Jesus accept us in our sin, and He cleans us up and makes us worthy. My holiness and righteousness has nothing to do with my ability to be holy, it's simply through accepting that He is my blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifices are found in many religions in Africa, South America, and well as Judeo-Christianity. I am righteous because the only perfect person who ever walked on this earth has been invited to live in my heart.

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Z

Zachary says

So one has to climb a ladder of self denial to become holy

Ascetic life and self denial may be part of what some "religions" suggest as a path to "enlightenment" which is a little different from what Christians consider holy.

But as for self denial and sin,... I believe that many Buddhists don't see sex as being as sinful as many american Christians do. It's the Christians, especially the fundamentalists and the Catholics who have the issues with sex. I have to agree that it is confusing to have sex on the one hand, part of our hard wiring and at the core of our reproductive drive, but then also somehow within the devil's domain.

Hey Marcus,
Welcome to the discussion. You know what always intrigued me...how much the those who led their lives with their reproductive drive or little head...ended up wih some many venerial diseases. How can something that feels so good turn into stuff like HIV and AIDS, Chlamydia, Gonorrhoea, Genital herpes, Genital warts, Trichomonas, Bacterial vaginosis,
Vaginal thrush (female candidiasis), Syphilis, Scabies, Molluscum contagiosum, and Crabs (pubic lice)???
So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

Zachary says

I was born and raised in Brooklyn and there are plenty of black men who have chosent to believe and serve the master. If you want to concentrte on gang-bangers, Jesus died for them too and unfortunately they come to Him until they get busted and land in the joint.

Wow, you completely missed my point. I wasn't talking about gang-bangers.

My point was that a person who can trace his ancestry back to slaves in this country might not think that "Earthly" slavery is unimportant. So my point stands. If Jesus is such an moral figure, why didn't he denounce slavery, a practice that was common place in his society?

If your answer is that injustices on Earth don't matter, than why should we stop any injustice? Why should we prevent a second Holocaust if nothing on Earth matters? If, on the other hand, you like me believe that things like genocide should be prevented because they are wrong, then why didn't Jesus condemn slavery?

Again, I'm not asking why Jesus didn't end slavery. After all, he wasn't a god. But even a man can say slavery is bad.

Zachary says

You obvioulsy have never experience the super natural my friend.

No I haven't. And the thing is, neither have you. At most, you have experienced something strongly emotional which you misinterpret as being supernatural. It's an unfortunately common mistake of your species. Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Zachary says

Talk about closed minded, they don't come as narrow minded as you. You stay on one station, unwilling to set your station to seeking the Holy Spirit...wake up!!!

Like many, you mistake skepticism for close mindedness. I have studied quantum mechanics. You have to have an open mind to understand that.

However, I do not accept things without reason. And every attempt to explain phenomenon with mysticism and the supernatural have failed. Whereas science and mathematics have consistently produced tangible results.

If you are so "open-minded" compared to me, are you willing to accept the existence of many other gods than "The Holy Trinity"? Are you willing to accept that there are trillions of life-sustaining planets in our universe each with their own gods? Are you willing to accept the possibility that there are gods far more powerful than Yahweh? If not, I fail to see how you are open minded.

You reject all gods but one. I simply take your logic one step further. Once you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours. The only reason you worship Jesus is because of a long series of accidents left the Jesus myth the last standing savior myth from the Iron Age. Alter history slightly and you would be worshiping Bob the Savior.

Zachary says

This horse is far from dead...

By the way Zac, did you even watch the video clip I provided? How can you rationalize away the blatant plagiarism of the Jesus myth?

Here's that clip again.

And the more in depth video.

Zachary says

#Thunderlips: The Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, what it really means is that God simply facilitated a process that Pharaoh himself initiated. After all, the Bible repeatedly also states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, i.e. Exodus 8:15 and 32.

"Facilitated a process"? C'mon, Zach. All you've done here is play with words, like calling torture, "Difficult Questioning" or "Extreme Interrogation".

I think it's fair to say that a plain reading of the Bible, in context, suggests that God changed Pharaoh's mind with his godlike powers.

Maybe God is evil, and when men sin God has simply "Hardened their hearts" to do bad things, and gets a psychopathic giggle out of the whole thing.

Like the way that smelly kid in HS used to torture squirrels.
Zachary says

Since you admit in your last comment and I quote: "Since God created men's minds and biochemistry (hormones), then men turning to sin so readily is his fault as the Creator." You acknowledge the sinful nature of mankind which is good.

Whoa nelly. I often say "Oh sweet Jesus" when I stub my toe, that is not a statement of faith. I granted sin as being real for the sake of argument: If Men's sinful nature exists, then it is the fault of the Creator who made them that way, since an omnipotent creator could have created them to be sinless. That he chose not to is evidence that he is either A) Not omnipotent (he makes mistakes) or B) He's not Omnibeneficient, since he allows sin to exist and punishes men for something they are naturally drawn to.

Zachary says

So Thunderlips, who caused your heart to get so hard?

Your evangelical mind tricks won't work on me. :)

My wife beating days are over.

Besides, if God exists, then my atheism is his will.

Zachary says

So maybe the Catholics and Christian fundamentalists are onto something? :-)

These diseases are higher in countries that ban contraception, restrict contraception, don't educate children on contraception, or are too poor to afford contraception.

Somewhere if Africa, young Mr. Mobotu is having sex for the first time, without a condom. Despite his regular church attendance, this one fall off the wagon into sin is going to cost him his life from AIDS.

On the other hand, at some swinger's club in Atlanta, a whole bunch of people are engaging in an orgy. Because they're wearing condoms, they won't pass their diseases on and many of them completely STD free and will be their whole lives.

God punishes people very strangely if you asks me. That, or taking proper precautions greatly reduces risk while allowing all the fun.

Dan8267 says

Google "the god helmet". We can reproduce that supernatural feeling in a lab now.

Dan, thanks for this, pretty wild stuff.

I don't know, why don't you ask him why he didn't denounce slavery? Like I said before, his mission was spirititual freedom. Perhap He used his servant, Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves.

Why are you blaming Jesus for all of the sins of man and next you will be talking to me about landslides and hurricaine deaths...come on....if you want perfection then you had better get saved and die.

Danny boy--- how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural? Hmmmm you're wrong.

Forgive me for not putting much creedance into what Bill Maher has to say about Horus.

wow, thunderlips....God is love andnot how you describe Him at all. You'll see....

really? people in the USA are contracting HIV all the time,not only in Africa and that's a fact. During 2009, there were an estimated 42,959 new diagnoses of HIV infection in the 40 states and five dependent areas

Zachary says

how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural?

People have convinced themselves they've seen everything from ghosts to fairies to flying pink elephants. Doesn't make them right. As long as your vision doesn't lead you to kill your family before The Rapture or something you are considered "mostly harmless".

This "God of Love" that requires weekly or daily prayers and intervenes in all kinds of personal lives, that doesn't make any damn sense at all. You pray that cancer away real good now you hear! Maybe he's just got a sadistic sense of humor, he must have had a great laugh from this stunt:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/01/19/brazil.churchcollapse/index.html

Google "the god helmet"??? are you kidding me. Tune in and get turned on. You are way off base here brother and don't even know how out of touch you are with "true" reality that is eternal. You are living in a temporal existence full of fear and doubt. You are afraid to get into mainstream religion becuase your liberal friends will think that you've become a whacko. You're missing the beauty and peace that receiving the miracles of Jesus Christ can bring into your life. You see, you are debating with you mind out of unbelief...but I have had the resurrection power enter my life. My experience is beautiful and your doubt is an empty clanging bell. You could never convince me because I've already walked in your shoes, but you have never walked in mine. I know this because if you ever truly knew Jesus, you could never say the stuff that you say.

Vicente--- do you believe in electricity? can you see it? I think you must be crazy too then :-)

Zachary says

Vicente--- do you believe in electricity? can you see it? I think you must be crazy too then :-)

Whether I "believe in electricity" or not, it's a demonstrable fact. I don't need to see electrons with my naked eye. Nor do I need to "see" the Ebola virus. There is ample observable and repeatable evidence of their existence that does not require my ability to "see it". I can stick a fork in an electric socket and get a personal demonstration.

Your Personal God however, is no more evident to me than any other fairy tale imagined in many thousands of years. I'm sure the first shamans knew the tricks of "you must have FAITH in my visions" and little has changed since. Let me know what I can do to get him to poke his head out. I've already tried standing out during a thunderstorm and blaspheming his name and daring him to strike me dead.

Ah Vicente,
But God loves you and tht's why you are still alive. I don't know what happened to you that makes you so bitter against Him. I'm sure in your own heart you believe that you have a right to hate Him. As for me, I filter the bad stuff up to knowing that God loves me and even though we have long suffered through sickness and difficulties, there have been so many blessings.
My friends prayed for me to get job and for my run-away dog of two weeks to be found and returned to me. In 12 hours I had my dog and a job. Mt fertility doctor told me that I had the lowest sperm count that he had ever encountered in his practice. Yet God told me in prayer to praise Him for my children and in 30 days my wife got pregnant. I have two sons who are 100% mine, there is no denying tht they came from my gene pool. My pastor had a dislocated arm, we prayed for him and heard a "pop." His arm went right back into place. There are so many wonderful answers to prayer that all of these sp-called "brain-washed" Christians have experienced. the best partis we love God, love ourselves now, love others, and are enjoying our life on this earth with the assurance that when we die, we will see that light loving light...Jesus Christ.

Zachary says

He used his servant, Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves.

And it took him 2000 years to come around to banning slavery? If you're going to make that kind of stretch, you might as well claim that Hitler was also Jesus's servant, as Jesus really wanted the Autobahn built.

Zachary says

Why are you blaming Jesus for all of the sins of man and next you will be talking to me about landslides and hurricaine deaths

No, that's the kind of irrational train of thought that religion promotes. I blame landslides and hurricanes on the laws of nature. No god is needed to explain anything in nature.

Zachary says

Danny boy--- how can you tell me that I hve never experienced the supernatural? Hmmmm you're wrong.

The same way I can tell you that you have never ridden a unicorn.

Zachary says

Forgive me for not putting much creedance into what Bill Maher has to say about Horus.

Then carbon date the scrolls yourself or do some secondary research. You got the entire knowledge of mankind at your fingertips. Use it. It's not hard looking up scientific facts from reputable archeological organizations. If you can't find ample evidence yourself that every holy story about Jesus was a rip-off copy of an older myth then you are either extremely lazy, or worse, willfully ignorant.

Whenever your religion contradicts science or historical fact, your religion is wrong.

Zachary says

wow, thunderlips....God is love andnot how you describe Him at all. You'll see....

Zachary, you're making a lot of claims, but you're not providing evidence for them.

One source written by unknown authors isn't enough evidence, since extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. But even the Bible discounts most of your theology:

For example, where in the Bible does it say that "God is Love"?

Here's what God has to say about God:
"I am a JEALOUS God." Is Jealousy a part of pure love?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." God makes BOTH good things and bad things, not just the good things.

"I (Jesus) have come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword." Is war love?
"The brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death." - wouldn't a loving God prevent this kind of violence and dissention?

Speaking of Free Will:
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

If God punishes transgressions of the father by punishing the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons, what about the free will of these successive generations? Their punishment is not the result of their own actions...

In any case, I won't see anything in all likelihood, because there is no evidence of life after death.

thunderlips11 says

For example, where in the Bible does it say that "God is Love"?

1 John 4:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

It also says in the Bible that our perspective on things is not God's perspective as one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

P N Dr Lo R says

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Okay, so how does that square with the other quotes I mentioned above?

...And the slaughter of all the Egyptian first-born (most of whom had nothing to do with the Pharaoh's decision), the killing of the kids who made fun of Elisha by sending the she-bears to tear them to shreds, the destruction of the Ameleks, including the old and the non-virgin women and all the male babies, Jesus' promise to tear apart families, etc.

Please explain how that is God expressing Love for mankind.

For every verse that attests to God's goodness, I can find a verse where he attests to his own jealousy, cruelty and vengeful attitude by word or deed.

There's no evidence of life after death...
apple's steve jobs had the same opinion as you. of curse dying with cancer he began hoping for a hereafter. all that I can say is did you hear what his last words were as reported by his family as he breathed his last breath? "ow wow, oh wow!" you'll probably say that it was the electrical circuits in his brain giving off some showtime event. LOL. Throughout the history of mankind there have been folks who died for a short amount of time and came back into their bodies. It doesn't matter what religion they are from, the experience is always the same:
1. there entire life flashed before them
2. a bright light appeared in the distance
3. they entered into a long tunnel and drawn closer to the light
4. the light was liquid love, love more intense than anything imaginable
5. the light spoke to them and told them that it wasn't their time yet.
If you do as much research in trying to justify why you need to learn the benefits of God as you do trying to tear him down, you'll only do your soul some good, and perhaps everlasting good. I sincerely hope that you do... you see this isn't just a debate for me. you can win the debate. There are some disturbing things in the Bible...I get that. But...I can't throw out the baby with the bath water either because the Lord has been so good to me.

you're right Dan. I must be a fool for believing such a line of crap that took me from a life of drugs and pain and set my path on a more righteous life. where can I get some crack so I can go ride your unicorn?

thank God for PND :-)

good one thunderlips. remind me to ask God about that when you and are are face to face with him. Maybe it's a theocracy and he's just gonna do what he wants to do. I don't have any good expalantion for why God did some of the things that he did. I know that he is perfect and pure and His ways are not our ways. If you knew that your neighbors had a disease that would kill your children and it came down to your children dying or you calling in the authorities who would come and take them away to a soilent green farm, what would you do? Perhaps Gid knew that if he didn't have them all killed that they would grow up hating His chosen people and taking revenge against them, so he had them destroyed. Who can know the mind of God?
After all, he loves us and prepared a place for His own, but for those who reject His plan of escape, like you in your current state, you will follow the demons to the firey pit. A place of eternal flame where there is no water to quench your thirst...yeah that doesn't sound politcally correct does it? If you want to challenge His authority and gamble with your next > trillion years of existence, be my guest. As for me and my house, we all serve the Lord and will continue to. Because if at the end of the day if it's not true, then I've lived a better life living with the glass half full, rather than half empty. But what's so cool is He is real and has spoken to me...that no one can ever take away from me.

Zachary says

1. there entire life flashed before them
2. a bright light appeared in the distance
3. they entered into a long tunnel and drawn closer to the light
4. the light was liquid love, love more intense than anything imaginable
5. the light spoke to them and told them that it wasn't their time yet.

Zach, read Dan's post about "The God Machine". Much of the sense of "merging with something outside ourselves" can be imitated by sending electronic stimulation in part of the brain.
Zachary says

you'll probably say that it was the electrical circuits in his brain giving off some showtime event.

You got it!

Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Muslims and even Atheists report the same sensations in near-death experiences, so it's not experienced by Christians exclusively.

Zachary says

good one thunderlips. remind me to ask God about that when you and are are face to face with him. Maybe it's a theocracy and he's just gonna do what he wants to do. I don't have any good expalantion for why God did some of the things that he did. I know that he is perfect and pure and His ways are not our ways.

Zach, still no evidence, just assertions, and now empty threats of harm later on. If what God does makes no sense, why bother explaining at all?
Zachary says

thank God for PND :-)

He left it for you to square up the contradictory Bible verses. Have at it.
Zachary says

If you knew that your neighbors had a disease that would kill your children and it came down to your children dying or you calling in the authorities who would come and take them away to a soilent green farm, what would you do?

A Christian might take comfort in Romans:
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Disobeying the Soylent Green Corp is to disobey God's appointed authorities on Earth. Whereas an atheist, me and my comrade guerillas will take comfort in the words of most any military training manual:

"Shoot at the center of mass".
Zachary says

you're right Dan. I must be a fool for believing such a line of crap that took me from a life of drugs and pain and set my path on a more righteous life. where can I get some crack so I can go ride your unicorn?

Zach, congrats on your defeat of addiction. I salute you for walking this painful and difficult path. Give yourself some credit for having the will to overcome Chemical and Psychological pressures. Life is an endless struggle to better oneself, now take the next step and free yourself from false guilt and belief in a non-existent higher power.

Zachary says

After all, he loves us and prepared a place for His own, but for those who reject His plan of escape, like you in your current state, you will follow the demons to the firey pit. A place of eternal flame where there is no water to quench your thirst...yeah that doesn't sound politcally correct does it? If you want to challenge His authority and gamble with your next > trillion years of existence, be my guest. As for me and my house, we all serve the Lord and will continue to. Because if at the end of the day if it's not true, then I've lived a better life living with the glass half full, rather than half empty. But what's so cool is He is real and has spoken to me...that no one can ever take away from me.

Nevermind political correctness, let's see some verifiable, non-ancedotal evidence for the existence of hell.

How about showing the census of hell, year by year. Y'know, how many people go to hell, their names, place of birth, date of birth, etc. That way we can line up the list of people with what we know about their lives and confirm - or disprove - the hell hypothesis.

I'm also gambling with my eternal life by betting that Allah does not exist. What if Allah is God and not the Trinity? You're going to hell, pal, just like me.

Also, Zach, is infinite punishment for a finite crime justice?

Vicente says

People have convinced themselves they've seen everything from ghosts to fairies to flying pink elephants.

Right, the Sherlock Holmes stories, written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, were all about "detection" and using logic to solve crimes and mysteries. Doyle later wrote books about the reality of Fairies. This obsession with Fairies and "Christian Spiritualism" happened after the deaths of many of his close family members, so there was probably something psychological about his later mysticism.

"Coming of the Fairies" 1921
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/cof/index.htm

thunderlips11 says

For every verse that attests to God's goodness, I can find a verse where he attests to his own jealousy, cruelty and vengeful attitude by word or deed

You're exactly right! If you peruse the scriptures with a mindset of cynicism and disbelief, then you've made up your mind beforehand. If you seek scripture for edification and a receptive attitude, then God will meet you where and how you are and guide you through the Holy Spirit to ultimate salvation through Christ. How many times throughout the centuries do you think these same arguments have been hashed and rehashed to exhaustion? That's why I believe arguments such as this are useless because that's all it is is arguing.

Vicente says

Whether I "believe in electricity" or not, it's a demonstrable fact. I don't need to see electrons with my naked eye. Nor do I need to "see" the Ebola virus. There is ample observable and repeatable evidence of their existence that does not require my ability to "see it". I can stick a fork in an electric socket and get a personal demonstration

"Faith, hope and love", the subjects of 1st Corinthians 13, have never been nor can ever be scientifically examined or quantified in even the most modern laboratories, but do you doubt their existence? Have you ever seen a faith, hope or love of which you speak, integrity or honesty or ambition or greed sitting in a room in the real? We speak and think of them as if they exist, but no one has ever had the experience of having to walk around or ponder now where would be a good place for this "love" that weighs in at about 30-40 lbs. And yet these insubstantial, invisible, unprovable things probably influence over 90% of one's impulses, activities and emotions every day far more than the three-dimensional, provable furnishings of everyday life.

P N Dr Lo R says

You're exactly right! If you peruse the scriptures with a mindset of cynicism and disbelief, then you've made up your mind beforehand.

Nothing to do with a mindset, can you prove to me that just one human being went to heaven or hell, with evidence from beyond the Bible? If you can't, it's just words in a book, that often contradicts itself, with no proof outside of it.

I bet if you read the Quran, or the Tao Te Ching, or the Poetic Edda, you didn't read it with the same reverence and credulity you did with the Bible.

It's just "woo", the bronze age version of people talking about "Crystal Vibrations affecting our consciousness", with the relative level of violence from back then.

I have the same mindset towards "Chakras" "Tantra" "Mantra" and "homopathy" and "Numerology". Demonstrate it working or it don't exist.

The evidence against God healing for example, is very compelling: Nobody in the past 2000 years ever regrew a lost limb. Testimony that somebody's back pain is reduced can be explained by any number of factors, and is subjective. Praying to god to restore a limb blown off in a war or car accident, and actually having it grow back, would truly be a miracle, and strong evidence of a deity. Science would have a very hard time explaining a human limb that regrew spontaneously. But not surprisingly, this is the one thing that never happens.

It is silly and dangerous to plan the life of one man, much less the life of an entire nation, around claims that cannot be verified at all.

I can't relate to either side of this argument. I like to leave the question unanswered, but so doing in a way where I enjoy many of the benefits of the the believer, but without the dogma. Why not just celebrate the mystery, and respect it. I don't need any specific doctrine to appreciate this thing that I have no name for, but which some call "God."

On another note, today is December 8th, the day John Lennon was shot. What a sweet man he was. I heard this on the radio today.

So this is Christmas
And what have you done
Another year over
And a new one just begun
Ans so this is Christmas
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young

A very merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear
And so this is Christmas
For weak and for strong
For rich and the poor ones
The world is so wrong
And so happy Christmas
For black and for white
For yellow and red ones
Let's stop all the fight
A very merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear
And so this is Christmas
And what have we done
Another year over
And a new one just begun
Ans so this is Christmas
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young
A very merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear
War is over over
If you want it
War is over
Now.

Zachary says

all that I can say is did you hear what his last words were as reported by his family as he breathed his last breath? "ow wow, oh wow!" you'll probably say that it was the electrical circuits in his brain giving off some showtime event. LOL.

That is not a joke. Serious questions are being asked in neuroscience related to the human inclination towards religious belief.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mzVwf26igJE

Gentlemen,
It' been a good discussion, and I will pray for you. I know that you don't feel that you need my prayers, however, you're smart guys and if God (whom you don't believe in) decided to intervene in your lives in real way, how cool would that be? If He did, would you say, hey I don't believe in you, go away? I would hope not. Since I believe in and have experienced miracles, my prayer is that you do too. That you experience the joy of this Christmas season to. May the Lord Jesus touch your hearts. Amen. God bless you guys and thanks for the lively and intellectual discusion. Bye!
Zach