patrick.net

Ruki,

You misunderstood the argument that is being made. But I guess you agree that we don't need laws to protect us. People should be able to use patents and copy written work all they want after all historically we didn't need them. Why should you be able to stop me from taking your idea/product and making it myself. After all you are saying that if I'm an entrepreneur who is making a copy of an ipad, no one helped me make the copy. Sounds pretty ridicules.

Honest Abe says

The "workers" have the same equal opportunity start their own company, become the owner, and produce the goods themselves.

Do they? Where do they get their capital when they're struggling just to pay bills?

In all markets, including labor, there are buyers and sellers. Sometimes conditions favor buyers and others, sellers. In labor, conditions have favored the buyers (employers) over the laborers.

And when you have labor over a barrel, it is a lot hard for disadvantaged folks to start the business.

xrpb11a says

Because they took no risk.
They can always move on in the blink of an eye.
the small business owner has hard assets and is invested in the business. They cannot.

They likely have little to risk in the first place. They're probably in debt. They're probably shut out of lending.

Wealth begets wealth. And those who are born in privilege fight to keep that privilege.

And can the poor or middle class really move when they want? And if businesses can't move, then why do the rightwing types always say that business will flee higher taxes, especially here in California?

Its pretty clear that obama has the "collective" mentality. He doesn't seem to believe in personal accomplishment - its collectivism that made it happen, you didn't.

If failure isn't your fault, success can not by your accomplishment. Notice the lack of personal responsibility?

All the roads, all the bridges, all the public education are the same for everyone. Yet some build businesses, and some are successful - despite government roadblocks and the collective mentality of liberals and liberal politicians who say "no, you didn't build that, someone did".

Samsung helped you..

fewy says

After all you are saying that if I'm an entrepreneur who is making a copy of an ipad, no one helped me make the copy. Sounds pretty ridicules

CL - with that type of thinking, NO ONE could succeed. "If you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right". If its meant to be its up to me. Only a tiny fraction of 1% of Americans are born into privilege - and so what? My life is determined by my talents, my abilities, my work ethic, and the choices I make, not by filthy rich people I'll never meet in my life.

Why do we continually see articles like this: "Ten new millionaires under 30 years old" or "New businesses strike it rich".

Have you read The Millionaire Next Door? My guess is that NONE of those millionaires share your mentality. If you think you can't, you can't.

I started with nothing. I scrimped and saved and did without...
that's how you get the seed money.

CL says

Do they? Where do they get their capital when they're struggling just to pay bills?

xrpb11a says

Why are you afraid of reliving your childhood?

I thought I was dealing with adults, not children. if you really want to just stick your tongue out at people and make fart sounds I suppose that's your prerogative, but don't expect the grownups to keep listening.

I love how dimwits like Abe seem to think that any implication that 'you didn't get there alone' must mean that Obama is unequivocally stating that one's skill or hard work had nothing whatsoever to do with it. Are you really that delusional and paranoid?

Conservatives constantly whine about regulations and taxes, however the reward is clearly still worth the risk in starting a business in this country or you'd be in 'greener pastures'. Is it beyond your grasp to understand that without the 'little people', without those that came before you, without those who fell on the battlefields, you'd have no business, regardless of your own sweat equity or mental prowess?

You shame others with the stories of someone who scrimped and saved and with only bus fare in their pocket, yet managed to create an empire. Conspicuously absent are the voices of 1000 others that tried and died penniless.

Funny, a 12 year old would have a hard time recognizing controversy and scandal....what's your excuse?

omgbacon says

Or should we spend more time manufacturing controversy and scandal by acting like 12 year old?

CL says

omgbacon says

It's because they're kinda whiny. I had no idea that small business owners had egos so fragile they could be easily shattered by a quote taken out of context that doesn't mean what they think it means.

And even if it meant what they thought it meant, it would be true anyway.

All of society is built on our past, and is a product of our current collective effort.

That's where the distribution of income comes in too. Why do the workers who produce the goods get so little of the benefit?

Actually, the workers who produce the goods get exactly what they agreed to when they hired on. If they didn't like the wages, then don't take the job.

Meanwhile, the fellow who started the company reaps good money when his product/service if selling well and loses his shirt when his product/service doesn't sell well.

If the company does well, the worker gets paid the agreed upon sum and continues to work. If the company doesn't do well, the worker looks for another job while the owner loses a butt-load of money and has a real bleak near-term future. When you run a business you take some huge risks, if the risks pay off you do well, if they don't you lose big. And the worker? He rides the winds of the wages that he agrees to and the ability to go from company to company looking for someone who wants to pay more for his services.

Abe, fox news says you're wrong:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/17/obama-right-americans-cant-succeed-without-government/?intcmp=obinsite

Is this the part of the story where your head blows up?

Here's a partial quote from the article:

" A lot has been made over comments made by the president last Friday to this effect.  In many cases, President Obama was deliberately quoted out of context.  Here is what the president actually said:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help.  There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.  Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.  Somebody invested in roads and bridges.  If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.  The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."
 

It’s not either/or.  The president was clear:  We succeed because of our individual initiative but also because of the public investments that help springboard that success.  Don’t believe me?  Then go start a business in Pakistan or Russia.  American entrepreneurs succeed in part because they’re in America.  And in America, we don’t get ours and then yank away the ladder of opportunity for the next generation.  "

xrpb11a says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampad

and yes, it is "just you"....

I find it interesting you link to a wikipedia page on Ampad. I find it even more interesting that there is a wikipedia page on Ampad. I notice the wikipedia page was last updated on June 7, 2012. Interesting because nothing significant occurred involving Ampad for over two years.

Also interesting the they quote a 53 percent annual compound growth rate, but in the same sentence mention $8.8 MM in 2002 to $200.5MM. Those two numbers dont add up...53% compound growth rate from $8.8MM in four years is $48.2MM. $8.8MM to $200.5MM in four years is about a 118.5% compound annual growth rate. Hmm...

So I dig a little more...and the "facts" on the wikipedia page are almost verbatim from this page:

http://americaneedsmitt.com/2012/05/american-pad-and-paper-ampad-one-of-bains-great-failures/

So yeah, the wikipedia numbers are suspect at best and outright biased at worst.

Then I notice at the top of that page it mentions $583.86MM in sales for 1996. Hmm..which is it, $200.5MM or $583.86MM? The only possible difference between sales and net sales is returns and discounts, so unless Ampad was getting returns and discounts of over 60% of its sales, these numbers dont gybe.

david1 says

Also interesting the they quote a 53 percent annual compound growth rate, but in the same sentence mention $8.8 MM in 2002 to $200.5MM. Those two numbers dont add up...53% compound growth rate from $8.8MM in four years is $48.2MM. $8.8MM to $200.5MM in four years is about a 118.5% compound annual growth rate. Hmm...

The "growth" was all borrowing and purchasing other companies. I notice bain, or wiki, doesn't talk about the growth in debt. Ampad borrowed 400 million to buy enough companies to pump up revenue to 200 million. Bain took huge fees on each aquisition. Once the revenue was pumped high enough Bain took Ampad public, again taking huge fees, then dumped their ampad stock leaving the suckers, sorry stock holders, of bains's pump and dump scheme screwed, blewed, and tattoed.

So bain put in 5 million, took out 12 million in fees and sold 50 million in stock. Hell of a return in 8 years, 60 million plus on 5 million. Not such a great deal for all the people who worked there and lost everything or the creditors who took a 200+ million dollar bath.

This is not capitalism as I learned it.

Well, that pretty much explains it.

Now, lets elect him and take that nasty bastard's nasty talent and turn it against Russia/China/Iran.

bob2356 says

So bain put in 5 million, took out 12 million in fees and sold 50 million in stock. Hell of a return in 8 years, 60 million plus on 5 million. Not such a great deal for all the people who worked there and lost everything or the creditors who took a 200+ million dollar bath.

jhall says

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

So true.

Without a socialist taxpayer funded highway system, businesses wouldn't be in business. Damn Socialist Sympathizers.

If you built a business after 2008, there is one damn thing for sure...
Obama did NOT make that happen.

Scumbag dimwits like Obama and his supporters are just envious of success and people who can do it. I have frequently been around dilettantes like Obama, in addition to being around truly successful people.
The dilettantes want to diminish the success, the brains and balls of their betters. This is very common.
For example, the semi-smart guys in my prep school became lawyers. This was also because at the time jobs were scarce so many guys just went back to school after finishing college.
These lawyer types are always complaining about or dissing their betters, doctors.
As far as Obama goes, we know what he said to Joe the plumber when he was running wild "off teleprompter". He said that Joe should spread his wealth or the fruits of his labor and success.
Why should anyone share any of their money or labor by force by the government?
We are not talking about roads. They are pay as you go by gas and other taxes.
We are not talking about air travel. This is pay as you go by taxes and fees on tickets.
We are not talking about police. They are paid locally by property taxes and sales taxes.
What is Obama then talking about? He is simply trying to rationalize stealing from the successful to redistribute their money to those who have done nothing to deserve it.

Honest Abe says

Did the president of the United States REALLY say that?

In case no one directly answered your question yet. NO he did NOT really say that. Anyone with more than a 6th grade education would have clearly understood that "That" was referring to the bridges and infrastructure in his prior sentence (conspicuously absent from all right wing media).

Listen to Faux news, become a real boob...

Honest Abe says

If you got a business you didn't build that, someone else made that happen.

Yep, someone else made your business prosper:

Your Customers.

The vast majority of whom are wage-earners. So, do you want your customers to get paid more, or paid less?

I love the hypocrisy of the red diaper doper baby left....demonizing Romney for his taken out of context sentence "I like to be able to fire people"....
then turning around and pissing their collective pants over Ob's "you didn't build that...."

same situation....same results.

Heh, between Ruki's graphic and xrpb11a not being able to recognize when he has lost an argument, this place is quite entertaining.

So which facts did you ignore to come to that conclusion?

gbenson says

Heh, between Ruki's graphic and xrpb11a not being able to recognize when he has lost an argument, this place is quite entertaining.

xrpb11a says

The majority owner makes a public statement that he is FOR marriage between a man/woman. Now Chick a Fil will suffer for it as they lose the LBGT customers.

It's more than one man's opinion. They donate their corporate dollars to anti-gay causes.

mmmarvel says

Actually, the workers who produce the goods get exactly what they agreed to when they hired on. If they didn't like the wages, then don't take the job.

But when the system is rigged to cause downward pressure on the worker, that whole system of entrepreneurship gets stifled. You can't collect enough wages to start that business, you can't negotiate higher wages.

Wages can go down, because you are competing with indentured servants in China now. The monopoly analogy rings true.

Picture one player with a million dollars, his inheritance. He's also friends with the bank.

You get your turn...you're in debt about a quarter million. Roll your dice!

How do you think it really works out? How fair is the playing field? And aren't some of our best and brightest the ones who start the game by losing?

We believe we live in a meritocracy. But it is largely piffle.

Honest Abe says

OMG. What a totally offensive, devisive statement.

It's like this Abraham: you build you a business from your own idea. Butt you are able to do this thanks to the blood that was shed by freedom fighters and liberty lovers who died in the fields of battle so that you had that right. Also there are facilities what are in place that make your biz possible starting with you public school education, you publicly funded libary the public interstate system the federal government giveing you the internet to do research on your biz. you d0 not build any biz alone you build it on the backs of the people

Ruki says

ass-raping the 'rich'.

Ruki be nice, man. this kinda nasty imagery does not belong in this kind of ADULT descussion.

CL says

Now Chick a Fil will suffer for it as they lose the LBGT customers.

The joke is on Chik fil A cause I kept chickens all ,my life and have seen many examples of cockerels being gay with another cockerel.

which misses the point completely.
the point being, an owner of a corporation who makes his political views public risks alienation of the affected groups in his statement.

Chick a Fil's contributions were not publicized, front and center. 90%+ of the people who would care were not aware of their contributions....that is until the owner opened his trap...

CL says

xrpb11a says

The majority owner makes a public statement that he is FOR marriage between a man/woman. Now Chick a Fil will suffer for it as they lose the LBGT customers.

It's more than one man's opinion. They donate their corporate dollars to anti-gay causes.

Sorry, but that shit don't float. ( hows that for imagery?)
Everything you listed below was funded by taxpayer's dollars.
In other words, the business owner paid his fair share of the funds necessary to build the roads/bridges, all taxpayers did.
So that stuff does not count towards determining who is responsible for "building a business", as all taxpayers paid for the facilities, and have the same opportunity to take advantage of them.

JodyChunder says

Honest Abe says

OMG. What a totally offensive, devisive statement.

It's like this Abraham: you build you a business from your own idea. Butt you are able to do this thanks to the blood that was shed by freedom fighters and liberty lovers who died in the fields of battle so that you had that right. Also there are facilities what are in place that make your biz possible starting with you public school education, you publicly funded libary the public interstate system the federal government giveing you the internet to do research on your biz. you d0 not build any biz alone you build it on the backs of the people

and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums. they cling to fabrications or willful ignorance or antipathy to people who aren't like them...

Ruki says

xrpb11a says

So which facts did you ignore to come to that conclusion?

They don't dwell in reality like we do. Their 'facts' are really fantasies to us in the real world, hence why they keep believing in Keynes' bullshit too.

Give HRHMedia access to patrick.net...and he'll masturbate with it.

xrpb11a says

n other words, the business owner paid his fair share of the funds necessary to build the roads/bridges, all taxpayers did.

No sir. Other long dead or old and wasted people are what paid. besides It ain't like JC dying on the cross sos you can have a blank check in the future. It is not a one time deal. They need to be supported and upgraded. Come on MAN! All life from begining to end you pay your monthly enstallments. Get over it.

It's like me saying, I MADE my head liner replacement biz all by myself! No sir. I stood on the shoulders of GIANTS and that shit ain't free.

Bottom line, regardless of how many bridges/roads/phonelines/electrical grid/ etc etc etc....guess what?
The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.
Without the roads, everything is brought in on the beaten path the owner made.
Without the bridges, ferries are employed that were built by the business owner...
without the electric grid, windmills are installed ( home made, of course)
Phone lines?? use smoke signals...
JodyChunder says

No sir. Other long dead or old and wasted people are what paid. besides It ain't like JC dying on the cross sos you can have a blank check in the future. It is not a one time deal.

xrpb11a says

The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.

But that is just the concept. I'll grant you that; but realizing it is a whole other level and that takes much much more than just the concept man/venture capital/risk to make happen. That takes people power and that isn't free. Maybe someday when we can all just get along.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_l_lPhUcBR8

xrpb11a says

and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums. they cling to fabrications or willful ignorance or antipathy to people who aren't like them...

Am I in the twilight zone? Am I being punk'd? Where's Ashton?

Notwithstanding how much fun it would be to debate economics with someone who gets excited about what Ron Paul says, reads a few bog posts on Austrian Economics, then deems that sufficient to award himself a PhD in the subject from the John Baptist College of SW Texas, I won't. This of course also qualifies you to ridicule a man who graduated from Yale then did his PhD studies at MIT, has dedicated his life to the study of macroeconomic models, and also oh-by-the-way was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work, without, I would mention, a co-author. Which means a vast majority of the very best minds in the field value his work with enough significance to award him that honor AND they also recognize that those ideas were so original to him that no one else deserved significant credit.

Yeah buddy, the knowledge you got from that blog and your "less than $500k in annual sales" small business experience stacks up against that. Oh and I forgot the wikipedia page on Austrian Economics you skimmed.

The only equivalent I could think of would be if the Dream Team (yes the original, quit fucking asking) played a pickup game against the Roseville Girls' School for the Handicapped 6th grade team, if Roseville decided to rest its starters.

Here is a hard reality for you to swallow: Most small business owners claim to be something special, but in actuality they can't compete for those jobs working at a large corporation that are well compensated. You probably don't stack up in a competitive environment. No one looked short in Munchkin land until Dorothy showed up.

You are your own boss. Congratulations. Wanna know what you've won? The ability to bid on mowing my grass, cleaning up my dogs shit, or pouring my cup of coffee. Best case you win the bid and get to manage the people whose ability maxes out at performing the aforementioned tasks. Worst case you're strapping on the rubber gloves yourself.

Small business owners: face it - you are average. You have always been average and you will always be average. Nothing wrong with being average, most people are. The reason why your business is stuck doing half a million in sales and you are stuck with a net income of seventy five grand isn't because of Obama and his health care act, and it's not because Pelosi passed all of those regulations. You are stuck because you have reached your potential, similarly to how you scored 1100 on your SAT and got third at the all-county track meet.

Get your ego out of the way and listen to what the smart people are saying to you. You aren't rich, and are never going to be rich. So when we say that you and everyone you know, including your children, would be better off if the richest .1% paid a bit more in taxes, just believe us. When someone shows you that economic prosperity was higher in the 1950s, 60s & 70s by every measure, when taxes on everyone (but especially the rich) were higher, look it up for yourself and when the data is confirmed it don't formulate crazy explanations for how the data is manipulated or made up.

And stop insulting the Macroeconomic commentary of a Nobel Laureate. It makes you look stupid.

david1 says

xrpb11a says

and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums. they cling to fabrications or willful ignorance or antipathy to people who aren't like them...

Am I in the twilight zone?It's become painfully apparent.

Am I being punk'd? depends on who you believe.

Where's Ashton?Leave me out of your personal life.

I see you have the attention span of a gnat. Sorry about that.

david1 says

Yeah buddy, the knowledge you got from that blog and your "less than $500k in annual sales"> small business experience stacks up against that.

There is nothing hard about economics - everybody who fails science grade math (such as electrical engineering or physics etc.) can fallback to becoming an "economist", which is just above realtor ;) A grandmother who saves more than she spends knows more about economics than twits like Krugman and his ilk - problem is only she is getting fucked over by team bernanke/geithner// who are really run by team banksta, fucked so hard that her 0.1 % savings turn negative after adjusting for cheap money inflation. So she has to worship the Keynesian monkeys and riverboat all in with her savings, maybe in Vegas, perhaps in the stock market, or buy "prime" real estate in hope she hits the jackpot. But thanks for the laugh about the "Macroeconomic commentary of a Nobel Laureate".

xrpb11a said: " they cling to fabrications"
Thanks for proving my point...

david1 says

Most small business owners claim to be something special

well, if you would sit down and STFU maybe we could hear from some 'smart people'...

david1 says

Get your ego out of the way and listen to what the smart people are saying to you.