patrick.net

n other words, the business owner paid his fair share of the funds necessary to build the roads/bridges, all taxpayers did.

No sir. Other long dead or old and wasted people are what paid. besides It ain't like JC dying on the cross sos you can have a blank check in the future. It is not a one time deal. They need to be supported and upgraded. Come on MAN! All life from begining to end you pay your monthly enstallments. Get over it.

It's like me saying, I MADE my head liner replacement biz all by myself! No sir. I stood on the shoulders of GIANTS and that shit ain't free.

68

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 1:03pm

Bottom line, regardless of how many bridges/roads/phonelines/electrical grid/ etc etc etc....guess what?
The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.
Without the roads, everything is brought in on the beaten path the owner made.
Without the bridges, ferries are employed that were built by the business owner...
without the electric grid, windmills are installed ( home made, of course)
Phone lines?? use smoke signals...
JodyChunder says

No sir. Other long dead or old and wasted people are what paid. besides It ain't like JC dying on the cross sos you can have a blank check in the future. It is not a one time deal.

69

JodyChunder 2012 Jul 30, 1:09pm

http://www.youtube.com/embed/_l_lPhUcBR8

The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.

But that is just the concept. I'll grant you that; but realizing it is a whole other level and that takes much much more than just the concept man/venture capital/risk to make happen. That takes people power and that isn't free. Maybe someday when we can all just get along.

70 david1 2012 Jul 30, 1:46pm

and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums. they cling to fabrications or willful ignorance or antipathy to people who aren't like them...

Am I in the twilight zone? Am I being punk'd? Where's Ashton?

Notwithstanding how much fun it would be to debate economics with someone who gets excited about what Ron Paul says, reads a few bog posts on Austrian Economics, then deems that sufficient to award himself a PhD in the subject from the John Baptist College of SW Texas, I won't. This of course also qualifies you to ridicule a man who graduated from Yale then did his PhD studies at MIT, has dedicated his life to the study of macroeconomic models, and also oh-by-the-way was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work, without, I would mention, a co-author. Which means a vast majority of the very best minds in the field value his work with enough significance to award him that honor AND they also recognize that those ideas were so original to him that no one else deserved significant credit.

Yeah buddy, the knowledge you got from that blog and your "less than $500k in annual sales" small business experience stacks up against that. Oh and I forgot the wikipedia page on Austrian Economics you skimmed.

The only equivalent I could think of would be if the Dream Team (yes the original, quit fucking asking) played a pickup game against the Roseville Girls' School for the Handicapped 6th grade team, if Roseville decided to rest its starters.

Here is a hard reality for you to swallow: Most small business owners claim to be something special, but in actuality they can't compete for those jobs working at a large corporation that are well compensated. You probably don't stack up in a competitive environment. No one looked short in Munchkin land until Dorothy showed up.

You are your own boss. Congratulations. Wanna know what you've won? The ability to bid on mowing my grass, cleaning up my dogs shit, or pouring my cup of coffee. Best case you win the bid and get to manage the people whose ability maxes out at performing the aforementioned tasks. Worst case you're strapping on the rubber gloves yourself.

Small business owners: face it - you are average. You have always been average and you will always be average. Nothing wrong with being average, most people are. The reason why your business is stuck doing half a million in sales and you are stuck with a net income of seventy five grand isn't because of Obama and his health care act, and it's not because Pelosi passed all of those regulations. You are stuck because you have reached your potential, similarly to how you scored 1100 on your SAT and got third at the all-county track meet.

Get your ego out of the way and listen to what the smart people are saying to you. You aren't rich, and are never going to be rich. So when we say that you and everyone you know, including your children, would be better off if the richest .1% paid a bit more in taxes, just believe us. When someone shows you that economic prosperity was higher in the 1950s, 60s & 70s by every measure, when taxes on everyone (but especially the rich) were higher, look it up for yourself and when the data is confirmed it don't formulate crazy explanations for how the data is manipulated or made up.

And stop insulting the Macroeconomic commentary of a Nobel Laureate. It makes you look stupid.

71

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 2:18pm

xrpb11a says

and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums. they cling to fabrications or willful ignorance or antipathy to people who aren't like them...

Am I in the twilight zone?It's become painfully apparent.

Am I being punk'd? depends on who you believe.

Where's Ashton?Leave me out of your personal life.

72

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 2:22pm

I see you have the attention span of a gnat. Sorry about that.

Yeah buddy, the knowledge you got from that blog and your "less than $500k in annual sales"> small business experience stacks up against that.

73 mell 2012 Jul 30, 2:26pm

There is nothing hard about economics - everybody who fails science grade math (such as electrical engineering or physics etc.) can fallback to becoming an "economist", which is just above realtor ;) A grandmother who saves more than she spends knows more about economics than twits like Krugman and his ilk - problem is only she is getting fucked over by team bernanke/geithner// who are really run by team banksta, fucked so hard that her 0.1 % savings turn negative after adjusting for cheap money inflation. So she has to worship the Keynesian monkeys and riverboat all in with her savings, maybe in Vegas, perhaps in the stock market, or buy "prime" real estate in hope she hits the jackpot. But thanks for the laugh about the "Macroeconomic commentary of a Nobel Laureate".

74

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 2:27pm

xrpb11a said: " they cling to fabrications"
Thanks for proving my point...

Most small business owners claim to be something special

75

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 2:36pm

well, if you would sit down and STFU maybe we could hear from some 'smart people'...

Get your ego out of the way and listen to what the smart people are saying to you.

76 mell 2012 Jul 30, 2:39pm

http://www.youtube.com/embed/GXcLVDhS8fM&feature=player_embedded

all you need to know about [current] economics.

77

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 2:39pm

xrpb11a said:"and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums."
You sound like someone who has tried, failed, and given up.
Thanks for proving my point.
david1 says

You aren't rich, and are never going to be rich.

78

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 30, 3:02pm

The small business owner is the backbone of the American economy. Ninety-nine percent of all employers are small business owners. They provide 75% of the new jobs created every year, and they are responsible for 96% of all exported goods. Small business owners work out of garages, small stores on Main Streets, and huge corporate campuses. "Princeton Review"

Small business owners don't think they are special. The Princeton Review, however, implies just that.

xrpb11a said:"and it's not surprising that they get bitter in public forums."
Thanks for proving my point.

You are your own boss. Congratulations. Wanna know what you've won? The ability to bid on mowing my grass, cleaning up my dogs shit, or pouring my cup of coffee. Best case you win the bid and get to manage the people whose ability maxes out at performing the aforementioned tasks. Worst case you're strapping on the rubber gloves yourself.

79 thomaswong.1986 2012 Jul 30, 3:26pm

http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/092711chiptechnologyinvestment/

bottom line, regardless of how many bridges/roads/phonelines/electrical grid/ etc etc etc....guess what?
The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.
Without the roads, everything is brought in on the beaten path the owner made.
Without the bridges, ferries are employed that were built by the business owner...
without the electric grid, windmills are installed ( home made, of course)
Phone lines?? use smoke signals...

Obama's "you didnt built that" is a pip dream! Must be the drugs from his youth still swimming in his warped mind!

Governor Cuomo Announces $4.4 Billion Investment by International TechnologyGroup Led by Intel and IBM to Develop Next Generation Computer Chip Technology in New York

Thousands of Jobs Will be Created or Retained in Albany, Canandaigua, Utica, East Fishkill, and Yorktown Heights; New York State Wins Investment Over Countries in Europe, Asia and the Middle East

Albany, NY (September 27, 2011)

Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced that New York State has entered into agreements providing for investments valued at a total of $4.4 billion over the next five years from five leading international companies to create the next generation of computer chip technology.

The five companies involved are Intel, IBM, GLOBALFOUNDRIES, TSMC and Samsung. New York State secured the investments in competition with countries in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

The agreements mark an historic level of private investment in the nanotechnology sector in New York. Research and development facilities will be located in Albany, Canandaigua, Utica, East Fishkill and Yorktown Heights. In addition, Intel separately agreed to establish its 450mm East Coast Headquarters to support the overall project management in Albany.

"This unprecedented private investment in New York's economy will create thousands of jobs and make the state the epicenter for the next generation of computer chip technology," Governor Cuomo said. "IBM, which is celebrating 100 years in New York, Intel, which is making its most significant investment in New York, as well as TSMC, Global Foundries and Samsung now recognize that the state is on its way to becoming a premier location for jobs, which is why these companies are making this major investment. In the last nine months, my administration has worked to create a more confident environment for doing business in New York, and major deals like this one prove that the state is truly open for business."

The investment in these two efforts will result in the creation and retention of approximately 6,900 jobs. That number includes 2,500 additional high-technology positions comprising of:

800 at CNSE Albany NanoTech Complex
950 at IBM - Yorktown Heights and IBM - East Fishkill
450 at SUNY Institute of Technology (SUNYIT) in Utica
300 at CNSE's Smart System Technology & Commercialization Center in Canandaigua

In addition, approximately 1,500 construction jobs will be created in Albany and 400 in Utica. As a result of the investment 2,500 existing jobs in Albany, Canandaigua and East Fishkill will be retained.

80 thomaswong.1986 2012 Jul 30, 6:32pm

CL says

But when the system is rigged to cause downward pressure on the worker, that whole system of entrepreneurship gets stifled. You can't collect enough wages to start that business, you can't negotiate higher wages.

Wages can go down, because you are competing with indentured servants in China now. The monopoly analogy rings true.

We also compete with the Japanese, Brits, Germans and other nations... none are indentured servants.

81

marcus 2012 Jul 31, 2:33am

Bottom line, regardless of how many bridges/roads/phonelines/electrical grid/ etc etc etc....guess what?
The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.
Without the roads, everything is brought in on the beaten path the owner made.
Without the bridges, ferries are employed that were built by the business owner...
without the electric grid, windmills are installed ( home made, of course)
Phone lines?? use smoke signals...

Wtf ?

We all know what Obama was talking about. There was a time when Americans were willing to pay for their government.

Everyone has objections to some part of what government spends money on, and everyone also benefits A LOT from at least some of the things that government spends money on.

But we run huge deficits while federal taxes are close to the lowest they've been in the last 50 years. Some taxes need to go up,...period.

When someone shows you that economic prosperity was higher in the 1950s, 60s & 70s by every measure, when taxes on everyone (but especially the rich) were higher, look it up for yourself and when the data is confirmed it don't formulate crazy explanations for how the data is manipulated or made up.

Well said, and the type of statement that won't even get an intelligible response from dim bulbs such as xrp.

82

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 31, 3:00am

Agreed.
So what the fuck does that have to do with what you quoted?

xrpb11a says

Bottom line, regardless of how many bridges/roads/phonelines/electrical grid/ etc etc etc....guess what?
The business does not exist if the original business owner decided not to start it.
Without the roads, everything is brought in on the beaten path the owner made.
Without the bridges, ferries are employed that were built by the business owner...
without the electric grid, windmills are installed ( home made, of course)
Phone lines?? use smoke signals...

Wtf ?

We all know what Obama was talking about. There was a time when Americans were willing to pay for their government.

Everyone has objections to some part of what government spends money on, and everyone also benefits A LOT from at least some of the things that government spends money on.

But we run huge deficits while federal taxes are close to the lowest they've been in the last 50 years. Some taxes need to go up,...period

83

Tenpoundbass 2012 Jul 31, 3:04am

We all know what Obama was talking about.

We do? Obama has been referred to a myriad of highly intelligent people.
From Greek philosophers to American founding fathers, to America's closest thing we've ever known as Royalty, that is John F. Kennedy.

How in the hell does a man that spends so much of his time explaining what he meant, get compared to brilliant critical thinkers, communicators and philosophers? Let's be clear here, we're not talking about Donny Dum Dum here. If his words can't stand on their own, then we don't need cut rate pundits telling me, "What he meant".

I mean which is it? You can't have it both ways. One minute he's this incredible wordsmith winning unjust awards and accolades then the next his context needs adjusting. Enough with it already, I think whether you agree or not, if he weren't such a grandstanding show-bag then we would be debating the Chicken or the Egg paradox as pertains to business and the roads.

There was a time when Americans were willing to pay for their government.

We still are, we just have a hard time swallowing...
"GSA's Lavish Federal Vegas Retreat "
"Solyndra"
"Light bulbs that are expensive and you can't see dick all"
"Soap products that the cost increases weekly that produces no suds, has less cleaning power than dirt"
"Temp Census workers counted as part of the unemployment gap. "

Sin taxes on every thing, that never gets accounted for their intended purpose.

i.e. Sugar taxes on soada ect... Alcohol... Tobacco...

Then these items are a hyperbole villainized as the number one ill-health contributors, in context to defrauding American's out of high premiums in lieu of an honest proper health care system. While never ever once accounting where the 300% price increases due to lofty taxes levied against those very same items since Obama took office, are going, or what they doing for that matter.

We don't need a first lady "SHAMING" Americans into shoping at Whole Foods and paying a hefty premium for Fresh fruits and produce that at this very damn moment the Liberal press are touting the virtues of gouging the American consumers preemptively over speculating the Corn crop dying and drying up in the drought. Which DAMN it while I'm here, if we've been subsidizing the Corn industry for Decades then where is the GODDAMN stock piles of the stuff? Come on, we've been paying this GOVERNMENT(that you love to tax us to death so much) to give the Corn industry crap loads of money to off set any losses they may incur. Which they've had a good two decade run, with out incident. Now the first HINT of adversity and every thing from Beef, Clothing, Gas, Groceries in general are slated to hyper inflate this summer, because a crop of corn is drying up in a mid western state?

Shirley You Jest!

84 david1 2012 Jul 31, 3:18am

We all know what Obama was talking about. There was a time when Americans were willing to pay for their government.

Oh, republicans want government, don't let them fool you. They just don't think they should pay for it. I mean, they want a government that spends twice what the rest of the world combined does on defense. Defense that protects the assets of the Waltons and Kochs, whose combined assets are equal to the bottom 50% of Americans. They want a government that protect copyrights and intellectual property rights. They need a government that grants them free access to american consumer markets while they can exploit labor arbitrage in the third world. They need protection from the pitchforks and torches and they don't mind the goverment doing that. They don't mind when government regulations increase the barrier to entry into their markets. Most importantly they want a government dominated by two parties they can continue to buy.

Asked to pay for anything more than what they are getting out of their government and they will scream CLASS WARFARE.

Or rather they pay someone else to scream it...

As an example, they label the estate tax the "Death Tax." Never mind the exemption from paying estate taxes is $10 million for a married couple. This is a tax that in its current form only affects .5% of estates. But here it is again, a central platform in Mitt Romney's tax reform plan - elimination of the "death tax."

But guys like xrp will accuse me of giving up because I tell him he's not going to be worth 10 million. And I don't even consider 10 million rich - its just an example.

Two families have the same net worth as 155 million americans combined. I just don't understand how anyone cant see that this is why economic growth is stagnant - then I realize, these guys read a blog about Austrian economics and award themselves the PhD. Then they make supply-side arguments based in pseudoscience and untestable hypothesis. Thats how.

85

marcus 2012 Jul 31, 3:26am

Agreed.

So you agree that taxes need to go up, and progressively, and yet you insist on arguing on and on and on over what Obama meant about businesses benefiting from government spending and investment?

86 david1 2012 Jul 31, 3:35am

mell says

There is nothing hard about economics - everybody who fails science grade math (such as electrical engineering or physics etc.) can fallback to becoming an "economist", which is just above realtor ;)

LOL at you comparing Krugman to an undergrad Engineering washout.

Again, its the Dream Team vs. the backups on the 6th grade girls squad..

Yes, undergraduate economics is not terribly rigorous and I would agree there is more difficulty in engineering, math, or applied science undergraduate programs.

Though the grasp of these undergraduate principles seems lost on a few in here...

If you think for one second that Krugman wouldn't run circles around you in your own field of expertise if he was given a month to study, you are mistaken.

But you are right, that Nobel pails in comparison to your "Sonoma County Chamber Entrepreneur of the Month, July 2005" award hanging on your wall.

87 rdm 2012 Jul 31, 3:45am

if we've been subsidizing the Corn industry for Decades then where is the GODDAMN stock piles of the stuff? Come on, we've been paying this GOVERNMENT(that you love to tax us to death so much) to give the Corn industry crap loads of money to off set any losses they may incur. Which they've had a good two decade run, with out incident. Now the first HINT of adversity and every thing from Beef, Clothing, Gas, Groceries in general are slated to hyper inflate this summer, because a crop of corn is drying up in a mid western state?

In the 1950's and 60's the farm programs were directed toward maintaining a stable food supply with large quantities of grains held in storage. This program came out of the dust bowl days. There was an emphasis on conservation programs that took highly erodible land out of production and paid farmers to put in terraces and waterways. That began to change in the 1970's to an export driven world market view and "fence row to fence row planting." Commodity and land prices skyrocketed and then crashed (remember farm aid). The farm programs have changed but have never gone back to government controlled/subsidized stored surplus commodities. It is a quasi market driven system that worked relatively well until mother nature crapped in the soup. The idiotic ethanol subsidies have encouraged the consumption of 10s of billions of bushels of corn over the last 15 or so years. Have consumers benefited from from the government programs? maybe but big farmers and companies such as ADM have benefited far more.

Regarding food prices I would not expect hyper inflation. Raw commodities represent overall only about 15% of what the retail buyer pays. Most predictions are for a 2 to 3% overall increase though some items will be more affected. If the drought continues into next year it will be another story.

88

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 31, 3:49am

I agree that I have no problem with my taxes going back up to 39% as long as it is applied to the deficit, with matching government spending reductions.

I agree that if the left can take Romney's "I like being able to fire people" completely out of context, then the right should have equal time with OB's calculated 'gaffe', spoken to incite his base.....at the expense of small business owners.

xrpb11a says

Agreed.

So you agree that taxes need to go up, and progressively, and yet you insist on arguing on and on and on over what Obama meant about businesses benefiting from government spending and investment?

89

xrpb11a 2012 Jul 31, 4:08am

I'll see your noble prize winner Krugman and up you a noble prize winner Freidman....
you need to get rid of that Krugmanian glaze in your eye, worship no one, and see things for what they are.

I'll give you credit though for making the finalist list for king of the one-liners...LOL...

but i'd take my 6th grade backup squad over your dream team straight up in a battle of integrity...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

mell says
..
There is nothing hard about economics - everybody who fails science grade math (such as electrical engineering or physics etc.) can fallback to becoming an "economist", which is just above realtor ;)

Again, its the Dream Team vs. the backups on the 6th grade girls squad..

But you are right, that Nobel pails in comparison to your "Sonoma County Chamber Entrepreneur of the Month, July 2005" award hanging on your wall.

90 Honest Abe 2012 Jul 31, 4:23am

Man was born to be free and independent. Liberals can't seem to get a grip on that simple concept and believe the world revolves around some collective, Marxist, socialist, communistic type arrangement where people give up their freedom and their god given rights for the "collective good".

91

CL 2012 Jul 31, 4:34am

Honest Abe says

Man was born to be free and independent. Liberals can't seem to get a grip on that simple concept and believe the world revolves around some collective, Marxist, socialist, communistic type arrangement where people give up their freedom and their god given rights for the "collective good".

There is nothing in nature to support this. Humans can't survive without collective effort, like the rest of the animals who work in concert.

Rugged individualism is a perversion, and collectivism is our nature.

92

Tenpoundbass 2012 Jul 31, 4:37am

Honest Abe says

Man was born to be free and independent.

Shoot, I was never no good for nothing 'cept luvin'.

93

CL 2012 Jul 31, 4:41am

thomaswong.1986 says

CL says

But when the system is rigged to cause downward pressure on the worker, that whole system of entrepreneurship gets stifled. You can't collect enough wages to start that business, you can't negotiate higher wages.

Wages can go down, because you are competing with indentured servants in China now. The monopoly analogy rings true.

We also compete with the Japanese, Brits, Germans and other nations... none are indentured servants.

And many of those are paid well.

â€œthe salient difference is that, in Germany, the automakers operate within an environment that precludes a race to the bottom; in the U.S., they operate within an environment that encourages such a race.â€

94 david1 2012 Jul 31, 4:58am

I'll see your noble prize winner Krugman and up you a noble prize winner Freidman....
you need to get rid of that Krugmanian glaze in your eye, worship no one, and see things for what they are.

First, I don't idolize Krugman. He's just right.

And second, Milt Friedman was NOT an Austrian supply-side witch doctor. He was a monetarist.

If you want a Nobel Laureate example who authored your supply-side, anti-central planning voodoo look at Hayek.

The easiest way to distigiush between them is Monetarists believe that centrally controlling the money supply positively contributes to overall economic well being, where Austrians believe centrally planned increases in money supply are the only known causes of nightmares in children. Or something like that.

New Keynesians (like Krugman) are very similar to monetarists. Keynesians cite lack of demand for economic malaise, monetarists cite lack of money. New Keynesians have trouble explaning rapidly changing prices, monetarists struggle with liquidity traps.

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

95

bdrasin 2012 Jul 31, 5:01am

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

A good definition of Austrian Economics is "Economics for people who don't like math".

96 Honest Abe 2012 Jul 31, 5:40am

OK, Cl - you're a collectivist. "Humans CAN'T SURVIVE without collective effort" Can't survive? And "THE REST OF THE ANIMALS"? Clearly the liberalism is a mental disease.

Liberals indifference to the sovereignty of the individual is buried in the "collective good" mentality which allows liberal governments the ability to rationalize unconscionable manipulations of the people they pretend to "serve".

For all its avowed "good intentions" the lib's political agenda is essentially sociopathic. The liberals political agenda necessarily dehumanizes the individual on the way to dominating him (IRS, DHS, TSA, Para-Military POLICE, etc) under penalty of the "law", all the way up to the penalty of death. No thank you, dems are "the enemy within".

97

hrhjuliet 2012 Jul 31, 5:43am

The small business owner is the backbone of the American economy. Ninety-nine percent of all employers are small business owners. They provide 75% of the new jobs created every year, and they are responsible for 96% of all exported goods. Small business owners work out of garages, small stores on Main Streets, and huge corporate campuses. "Princeton Review"

That's why there should be more tax incentives for small businesses that deal in American labour, with American materials. Instead, we give huge tax breaks, on the federal and state level, to giant corporations that give the majority of their jobs to people overseas, since they are most often political prisoners, children and the desperate. The only Americans that earn a living wage in these giant corporations are at the top. They often offer service jobs in America, but they make minimum wage, so the only people in this country the create jobs for are usually teens earning extra cash, because no one can live on minimum wage without government help in the USA anymore. Small businesses create real jobs for Americans, yet they are the ones who are penalized by our tax system, and penalized even more if the individual running the company makes under $200,000. The system is a mess, and we are a democracy, so it's our own fault. "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams

98

bdrasin 2012 Jul 31, 5:48am

Honest Abe says

The liberals political agenda necessarily dehumanizes the individual on the way to dominating him (IRS, DHS, TSA, Para-Military POLICE, etc) under penalty of the "law", all the way up to the penalty of death

Actually, capitol punishment is much more strongly supported by conservatives than liberals.

99 mell 2012 Jul 31, 6:17am