patrick.net

CaptainShuddup says

Gays don't want equal rights they want exceptional rights. Where their rights trumps the rights of others to be repulsed by it, or to raise your children to think Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, one which may conflict with the morals of how one might want to raise their children.

The gay rights movement just wants equality. Stopping you from being ashamed of your children or raising them as bigots is not really a part of the agenda.

Thedaytoday says

equal benefits hetro couples enjoy.

they are not marriage rights but policies created by non-religious institutions, such as
transfer of benefits to spouse, IRS tax deductions, etc etc.

but just like the IRS tax code were created for the benefit of growing family.. a mom who stays home...but since when do two professional working guys need such benefits.

Thedaytoday says

Yes it is broken, unless two woman or two men can be married with all the equal benefits hetro couples enjoy.

from what church do you get equal benefits... what part of the ceremony states you are entitled to equal benefits created by non-religious institutions ?

If anything, if you are a gay couple .. you no longer need such equal benefits.

ask the insurance companies, irs, and others... what equal benefits ?

I like how the word bigot has been redefined as well. Apparently you can't host your own opinion, with out actually hating. I don't hate gays, I just don't want to hear them whine every time I turn on the television or open a news paper. If you've got a couple hours, I tell all about my woes as well. Gays and Races in this country don't have a monopoly on problems. Where's the government trying to mandate everyone to solve my problems in life? Oh that's right, they don't give three shits about my problems or my plight.

Thedaytoday says

That is not your call.

Hence law, rights and a Constitution.

WE the people, makes it my call. The "rights and benefits" are not under the constitution, If you are a US citizen.. you already have those individual rights.

Policies and contracts made by insurance companies for death benefits are outside the US constitution.

thomaswong.1986 says

IRS tax code were created for the benefit of growing family.. a mom who stays home...but since when do two professional working guys need such benefits.

Around a million gay parents have more than a million kids. Famous examples include Melissa Etheridge, Rosie O'Donnell, etc. Not all of them are married, but you might want to read this regarding the married couples:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/story?id=8232392&page=1

CaptainShuddup says

I like how the word bigot has been redefined as well. Apparently you can't host your own opinion, with out actually hating.

Your opinion is that being gay is an immoral lifestyle choice that people make for attention. Look up bigotry in the dictionary.

thomaswong.1986 says

If you are a US citizen.. you already have those individual rights

Which rights might that be?

CaptainShuddup says

If you've got a couple hours, I tell all about my woes as well.

I thought that's what you were doing?

pdh says

Look up bigotry in the dictionary.

From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

Le mot juste!

"a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong"

Etymology suggests the word "bigot" is derived from "By God," i.e. they can't find any observable reason and so insist that their particular invisible deity agrees with them.

In many ways, russia has been and continues to be a bastion of backwardness. The "slavophile" glorification pontificated by Dostoyevski has not provided the needed critical introspection needed to emulate the successes of other white cultures such as germans and anglo saxons.

curious2 says

Around a million gay parents have more than a million kids.

two gay men with professional jobs hardly need special tax relief.

Actually Rosie O'Donnell, like so many Hollywood types don't adopt children,
they collect them like cars and homes. Oh yea! these kids will grow up normal.

thomaswong.1986 says

curious2 says

Around a million gay parents have more than a million kids.

two gay men with professional jobs hardly need special tax relief.

Actually Rosie O'Donnell, like so many Hollywood types don't adopt children,
they collect them like cars and homes. Oh yea! these kids will grow up normal.

How do you know that?

I am all for traditional Russian values if that means more Caspian caviar.

Peter P says

traditional Russian values

I noticed that phrase, and attributed it to the source (Fox), where "traditional" has a selective meaning. The Russian word Tsar derives from the Latin Caesar, at least two of whom actually had same-sex marriages. So, the meaning of "traditional" depends on how much of the tradition one chooses to consider. Looking at Putin, I think the relevant tradition is Ivan the Great, who became Ivan the Terrible. Ivan epitomizes the expression that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. He governed well for a time, then gained absolute power, then became a terrible tyrant. Nevertheless, Russians to this day tend to want a strong leader, a divine emperor. Putin reveres the memory of Stalin, who murdered millions of Russians but spared Putin's grandfather. The alliance between Putin and the Orthodox church for the enforcement of "traditional Russian values" is basically an alliance to protect the current power structure against any change.

curious2 says

The alliance between Putin and the Orthodox church for the enforcement of "traditional Russian values" is basically an alliance to protect the current power structure against any change.

Send the Gays over to sort them out, that ought-a do it.

This whole mess probably started when the punk rock group called Pussy riot performed at one of Russia's grandest cathedrals, criticizing Putin.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html

So now they have to bring the youth back to all Heil Putin. Lets see how far backwords they slide this time.

lostand confused says

This whole mess probably started when the punk rock group called Pussy riot performed at one of Russia's grandest cathedrals, criticizing Putin.

Yup! And why did they have to go to the Church to pull their shit?

That's what gets me about their movement.
They are requesting outlandish shit, they expect the impossible.
They want everyone to love them and not only accept Gay children but wish for it. This isn't about getting the Government to recognize their Civil union. That would be very simple and easy. Well it would have been about 6 years ago, maybe ten years ago, before they started their 'in your face, now love me' campaign. It would have been very simple for them to have gotten special recognition from the government and rights that were specially crafted for their ideals and beliefs. But that's not what they want. They want to hijack normal. It's very easy to get the Government to send a gay spouse their deceased lover's SS check, retirement funds,and estate untaxed. What is impossible is to get Jerry Farwell to admit that he thinks that guy from "Queer eye for the straight guy" is kinda cute.

CaptainShuddup says

Yup! And why did they have to go to the Church to pull their shit?

That's what gets me about their movement.

Well, Pussy Riot is not a gay/lesbian group-though they support their causes. Pussy riot is a feminist punk rock group!!

Well why would anyone protest the Church? I mean come on this isn't 1612.

Attendance is down for Christ sakes, you'd have a bigger audience at the local strip club.

CaptainShuddup says

It's very easy to get the Government to send a gay spouse their deceased lover's SS check, retirement funds,and estate untaxed.

Actually it's illegal, right now, in America.

CaptainShuddup says

Well why would anyone protest the Church?

This article should have answered that question for you.

lostand confused says

Pussy Riot is not a gay/lesbian group

Exactly. But that doesn't stop Captain Ignorance from blaming their actions for his own bigotry. And the reason for his bigotry is Southern Baptist indoctrination.

There is a very strong inverse correlation between religiosity and legal equality. No Muslim majority countries have marriage equality, for example our "allies" in Pakistan have the death penalty instead. Several majority Catholic countries have marriage equality, despite the Pope's objections. Also majority Anglican and Lutheran. But where Muslims or the Southern Baptist Convention rule, bigotry rules. Even though some of the most famous Southern Baptists support marriage equality, for example Bill Clinton and Bill Moyers, the Southern Baptist convention purports to speak for all of them and Captain Vanity falls into line because he was promised that his geocentric universe must revolve around him.

I have tried telling Captain Tonya Harding the obvious fact that he can't help his own marriage by kneecapping someone else's. But illuminating him on this topic is hopeless. As Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.” That's why he blames his own bigotry on anyone who reminds him of it.

Well no Chicken sandwich for then young man!

thomaswong.1986 says

But it stops when it comes to marriage and procreation

Uh, no.

"Scouring collections of medieval manuscripts from Paris to St. Petersburg and from the Vatican to the monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, he has turned up more than 60 texts, dating from the 8th to the 16th centuries, of Christian ceremonies for what has been variously translated as "spiritual brotherhood," "adoptive brotherhood" or what Dr. Boswell believes to be a more neutral term, "same-sex union."

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/11/us/beliefs-study-medieval-rituals-same-sex-unions-raises-question-what-were-they.html

Well did they file jointly or single?
Where there lavish weddings at the church, did Luther use his printing press to print up the invitations? Oh so Marie Antoinette, was the Caterer, she was referring to the menu... "Let them eat cake".

What episode of fractured fairy tales did they get the study from?

CaptainShuddup says

What episode of fractured fairy tales did they get the study from?

Yale History Department Chair John Boswell devoted years to reading original texts across Europe. The story of Serge and Bacchus became the basis of liturgies written specifically for same-sex unions in what was then the universal Christian church, i.e. the Catholic church. BTW Boswell was Catholic, and every year for Lent he would learn another language.

Finehoe
In this passage from the article you posted...

"Send down, most kind Lord, the grace of Thy Holy Spirit upon these Thy servants, whom Thou hast found worthy to be united not by nature but by faith and a holy spirit. Grant unto them Thy grace to love each other in joy without injury or hatred all the days of their lives."

Where is the sex of either party even mentioned in that Marital blessing?
Revisionist hard at work I see.

CaptainShuddup says

Where is the sex of either party even mentioned in that Marital blessing?

Both parties are standing at the altar at the time, and their names are included, and other parts of the blessing refer to Serge and Bacchus. You should read the book. BTW a Connecticut priest had also been using these blessings since the 1980s, even though the "modern" church no longer approved.

And none of this came to light during Harvey Milks battle against the straight institution? Boy how on earth did the Church hide these Gay marriages for 8 centuries from the flaming masses. And how did revisionist discover them only just now?

Again, is this about getting the church to kiss your pecker, pr to get the government to recognize your rights. Because it sure as hell seems like it's the first part. And gays could give a rats ass what the government thinks. This is about hijacking everything in history, religion and humanity to give it Homosexual beginnings. Just about crapping on traditional values because Daddy didn't approve of your lifestyle.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.”

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago. It wasn't hidden, it simply didn't fit your preferred narrative. But obviously trying to reason with you on this topic is a waste of time, your mind contracts and you become increasingly paranoid and reactionary, so I'll stop now.

curious2 says

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago.

OH! My BAD so the real story remained hidden for ONLY 780 years.

CaptainShuddup says

curious2 says

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago.

OH! My BAD so the real story remained hidden for ONLY 780 years.

Well considering the atrocities of the Church over the centuries, it is not a surprise.

The real story of heliocentrism remained hidden for 2,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos was prosecuted for heresy, as was Galileo. (Different religions, same result.) The preferred narrative was geocentrism: the universe revolves around us, and we alone know the mind of its Creator, who despite being supposedly omnipotent somehow needs us to speak for him, so you'd better listen or he'll smite you with hurricanes or we'll burn you at the stake.

Those are plain old sexual deviants.

FortWayne says

Those are plain old sexual deviants, mentally ill weirdos, who should not be part of the society.

At least Russians understand that, out in CA we gave these people San Francisco and West Hollywood. And now they demand even more and more area and rights to practice their perverted deviant behavior. It's a cancer on our society.

How is it deviant? Nobody gave them any city-plenty of straight people there.

lostand confused says

Well considering the atrocities of the Church over the centuries, it is not a surprise.

Yeah but they were proud of those autocracies, and were always common knowledge. IF and that's a huge fucking "IF" this story was remotely true. Then the Catholic church would have burned those texts centuries ago, like they did with other texts that didn't fit with their beliefs.

Hence if this were true, then the proof would have been burned and this would all just be one big speculated history revision. Which I suspect it is.

curious2 says

The real story of heliocentrism remained hidden for 2,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos was prosecuted for heresy, as was Galileo. (Different religions, same result.) The preferred narrative was geocentrism: the universe revolves around us, and we alone know the mind of its Creator, who despite being supposedly omnipotent somehow needs us to speak for him, so you'd better listen or he'll smite you with hurricanes or we'll burn you at the stake.

That wasn't hidden at all, that has been in every textbook on Science and Astronomy, ever since it was legal to write them with out prefacing every paragraph with... "And the Lord said onto thee"...

CaptainShuddup says

Then the Catholic church would have burned those texts centuries ago, like they did with other texts that didn't fit with their beliefs.

They didn't burn every copy of everything. They did destroy a lot though, e.g. auto-da-fé, the writings of Sappho. Most of the writings of Leonardo da Vinci were also lost, allegedly destroyed by a local bishop. The writings of Aristarchus survived only in reflection, i.e. references in the work of others. But facts are stubborn things, and Aristarchus and Galileo were eventually vindicated.

CaptainShuddup says

[Heliocentrism] wasn't hidden at all, that has been in every textbook on Science and Astronomy....

It was deliberately hidden, the Vatican banned Copernicus' book and forced Galileo to recant on pain of execution.

This isn't actually about gays or gay rights. The Russian gay movement is collateral damage in a much larger movement happening there. Russia is a hot mess and has been for a couple of decades. Murder rates have climbed, suicides are quite common, and everyone is drinking themselves to an early grave. More disturbing to the government, birth rates are way down to the point where population growth is strongly negative. And many of those babies that are born are being turned over to orphanages, where they languish without good care. This is why you've perhaps seen the news stories about American adoptions from Russia. It's a sticky point of pride to Russia that its own people refuse to care for their children and so need kindly couples from America to adopt the Russian children. All the news stories derive from an injured Russian pride.

So Russia is a mess. The people despair.
Putin's solution is to turn to an age old institution that promotes good family values which are sorely lacking in Russian society. That is The Church. In the face of a rapidly decaying social core, Russia turns to the church as a last salvation from the decades of anarchy, atheism, and value-less teachings of a government that has always only cared for itself.

Once you invite the church to take over the nation's social reconstruction, you have to go along with clerical demands. They're doing the work, so if the bishops want the gay movement quashed or a band of hooligans jailed, that's what you give them.
I predict that russia will slowly rebuild now. Sure they have less freedoms, and more restraint on hedonism, but that will encourage people to live lives that construct rather than self destruct.
In ten years, adoptions from Russia may be old news, as Russian people rediscover their humanity in the arms of the church.

Quigley says

Once you invite the church to take over the nation's social reconstruction, you have to go along with clerical demands.

That is an interesting perspective, I hadn't looked at it that way. Since Stalin's time, the Soviet Czar seemed stronger than the church, so I saw it as Putin using the church for cover to distract people from his increasingly corrupt autocracy. But you're probably right that it's a two-way street. Also reportedly he is personally religious, so he might feel he's 'doing the Lord's work'. That is also vanity of course - no omnipotent god could ever need his help, but it makes him feel omnipotent to be doing the Lord's work himself.

There is an old joke about the mentality of different communist countries. I forget the exact words but it went something like this:
If a Hungarian farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say "Give me one cow also."
If a Czech farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say, "I want half the milk from his cow."
If a Russian farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say, "Kill his cow."

Some people hate comparative disadvantage more than poverty, I call it the Tonya Harding syndrome. She was a famously good skater, but she couldn't stand the fact that someone else was better, so she would risk everything to kneecap her opponent. Russia is like that, and Captain Tonya falls into it also: whatever their own problems might be, instead of solving those, they want someone else to be made worse off.