patrick.net

curious2 says

The alliance between Putin and the Orthodox church for the enforcement of "traditional Russian values" is basically an alliance to protect the current power structure against any change.

Send the Gays over to sort them out, that ought-a do it.

This whole mess probably started when the punk rock group called Pussy riot performed at one of Russia's grandest cathedrals, criticizing Putin.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/world/europe/russia-pussy-riot-trial/index.html

So now they have to bring the youth back to all Heil Putin. Lets see how far backwords they slide this time.

lostand confused says

This whole mess probably started when the punk rock group called Pussy riot performed at one of Russia's grandest cathedrals, criticizing Putin.

Yup! And why did they have to go to the Church to pull their shit?

That's what gets me about their movement.
They are requesting outlandish shit, they expect the impossible.
They want everyone to love them and not only accept Gay children but wish for it. This isn't about getting the Government to recognize their Civil union. That would be very simple and easy. Well it would have been about 6 years ago, maybe ten years ago, before they started their 'in your face, now love me' campaign. It would have been very simple for them to have gotten special recognition from the government and rights that were specially crafted for their ideals and beliefs. But that's not what they want. They want to hijack normal. It's very easy to get the Government to send a gay spouse their deceased lover's SS check, retirement funds,and estate untaxed. What is impossible is to get Jerry Farwell to admit that he thinks that guy from "Queer eye for the straight guy" is kinda cute.

CaptainShuddup says

Yup! And why did they have to go to the Church to pull their shit?

That's what gets me about their movement.

Well, Pussy Riot is not a gay/lesbian group-though they support their causes. Pussy riot is a feminist punk rock group!!

Well why would anyone protest the Church? I mean come on this isn't 1612.

Attendance is down for Christ sakes, you'd have a bigger audience at the local strip club.

CaptainShuddup says

It's very easy to get the Government to send a gay spouse their deceased lover's SS check, retirement funds,and estate untaxed.

Actually it's illegal, right now, in America.

CaptainShuddup says

Well why would anyone protest the Church?

This article should have answered that question for you.

lostand confused says

Pussy Riot is not a gay/lesbian group

Exactly. But that doesn't stop Captain Ignorance from blaming their actions for his own bigotry. And the reason for his bigotry is Southern Baptist indoctrination.

There is a very strong inverse correlation between religiosity and legal equality. No Muslim majority countries have marriage equality, for example our "allies" in Pakistan have the death penalty instead. Several majority Catholic countries have marriage equality, despite the Pope's objections. Also majority Anglican and Lutheran. But where Muslims or the Southern Baptist Convention rule, bigotry rules. Even though some of the most famous Southern Baptists support marriage equality, for example Bill Clinton and Bill Moyers, the Southern Baptist convention purports to speak for all of them and Captain Vanity falls into line because he was promised that his geocentric universe must revolve around him.

I have tried telling Captain Tonya Harding the obvious fact that he can't help his own marriage by kneecapping someone else's. But illuminating him on this topic is hopeless. As Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.” That's why he blames his own bigotry on anyone who reminds him of it.

Well no Chicken sandwich for then young man!

thomaswong.1986 says

But it stops when it comes to marriage and procreation

Uh, no.

"Scouring collections of medieval manuscripts from Paris to St. Petersburg and from the Vatican to the monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, he has turned up more than 60 texts, dating from the 8th to the 16th centuries, of Christian ceremonies for what has been variously translated as "spiritual brotherhood," "adoptive brotherhood" or what Dr. Boswell believes to be a more neutral term, "same-sex union."

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/11/us/beliefs-study-medieval-rituals-same-sex-unions-raises-question-what-were-they.html

Well did they file jointly or single?
Where there lavish weddings at the church, did Luther use his printing press to print up the invitations? Oh so Marie Antoinette, was the Caterer, she was referring to the menu... "Let them eat cake".

What episode of fractured fairy tales did they get the study from?

CaptainShuddup says

What episode of fractured fairy tales did they get the study from?

Yale History Department Chair John Boswell devoted years to reading original texts across Europe. The story of Serge and Bacchus became the basis of liturgies written specifically for same-sex unions in what was then the universal Christian church, i.e. the Catholic church. BTW Boswell was Catholic, and every year for Lent he would learn another language.

Finehoe
In this passage from the article you posted...

"Send down, most kind Lord, the grace of Thy Holy Spirit upon these Thy servants, whom Thou hast found worthy to be united not by nature but by faith and a holy spirit. Grant unto them Thy grace to love each other in joy without injury or hatred all the days of their lives."

Where is the sex of either party even mentioned in that Marital blessing?
Revisionist hard at work I see.

CaptainShuddup says

Where is the sex of either party even mentioned in that Marital blessing?

Both parties are standing at the altar at the time, and their names are included, and other parts of the blessing refer to Serge and Bacchus. You should read the book. BTW a Connecticut priest had also been using these blessings since the 1980s, even though the "modern" church no longer approved.

And none of this came to light during Harvey Milks battle against the straight institution? Boy how on earth did the Church hide these Gay marriages for 8 centuries from the flaming masses. And how did revisionist discover them only just now?

Again, is this about getting the church to kiss your pecker, pr to get the government to recognize your rights. Because it sure as hell seems like it's the first part. And gays could give a rats ass what the government thinks. This is about hijacking everything in history, religion and humanity to give it Homosexual beginnings. Just about crapping on traditional values because Daddy didn't approve of your lifestyle.

As Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.”

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago. It wasn't hidden, it simply didn't fit your preferred narrative. But obviously trying to reason with you on this topic is a waste of time, your mind contracts and you become increasingly paranoid and reactionary, so I'll stop now.

curious2 says

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago.

OH! My BAD so the real story remained hidden for ONLY 780 years.

CaptainShuddup says

curious2 says

If you had checked the link for Boswell's book on same-sex unions, you would have seen it was published nearly 20 years ago.

OH! My BAD so the real story remained hidden for ONLY 780 years.

Well considering the atrocities of the Church over the centuries, it is not a surprise.

The real story of heliocentrism remained hidden for 2,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos was prosecuted for heresy, as was Galileo. (Different religions, same result.) The preferred narrative was geocentrism: the universe revolves around us, and we alone know the mind of its Creator, who despite being supposedly omnipotent somehow needs us to speak for him, so you'd better listen or he'll smite you with hurricanes or we'll burn you at the stake.

Those are plain old sexual deviants.

FortWayne says

Those are plain old sexual deviants, mentally ill weirdos, who should not be part of the society.

At least Russians understand that, out in CA we gave these people San Francisco and West Hollywood. And now they demand even more and more area and rights to practice their perverted deviant behavior. It's a cancer on our society.

How is it deviant? Nobody gave them any city-plenty of straight people there.

lostand confused says

Well considering the atrocities of the Church over the centuries, it is not a surprise.

Yeah but they were proud of those autocracies, and were always common knowledge. IF and that's a huge fucking "IF" this story was remotely true. Then the Catholic church would have burned those texts centuries ago, like they did with other texts that didn't fit with their beliefs.

Hence if this were true, then the proof would have been burned and this would all just be one big speculated history revision. Which I suspect it is.

curious2 says

The real story of heliocentrism remained hidden for 2,000 years. Aristarchus of Samos was prosecuted for heresy, as was Galileo. (Different religions, same result.) The preferred narrative was geocentrism: the universe revolves around us, and we alone know the mind of its Creator, who despite being supposedly omnipotent somehow needs us to speak for him, so you'd better listen or he'll smite you with hurricanes or we'll burn you at the stake.

That wasn't hidden at all, that has been in every textbook on Science and Astronomy, ever since it was legal to write them with out prefacing every paragraph with... "And the Lord said onto thee"...

CaptainShuddup says

Then the Catholic church would have burned those texts centuries ago, like they did with other texts that didn't fit with their beliefs.

They didn't burn every copy of everything. They did destroy a lot though, e.g. auto-da-fé, the writings of Sappho. Most of the writings of Leonardo da Vinci were also lost, allegedly destroyed by a local bishop. The writings of Aristarchus survived only in reflection, i.e. references in the work of others. But facts are stubborn things, and Aristarchus and Galileo were eventually vindicated.

CaptainShuddup says

[Heliocentrism] wasn't hidden at all, that has been in every textbook on Science and Astronomy....

It was deliberately hidden, the Vatican banned Copernicus' book and forced Galileo to recant on pain of execution.

This isn't actually about gays or gay rights. The Russian gay movement is collateral damage in a much larger movement happening there. Russia is a hot mess and has been for a couple of decades. Murder rates have climbed, suicides are quite common, and everyone is drinking themselves to an early grave. More disturbing to the government, birth rates are way down to the point where population growth is strongly negative. And many of those babies that are born are being turned over to orphanages, where they languish without good care. This is why you've perhaps seen the news stories about American adoptions from Russia. It's a sticky point of pride to Russia that its own people refuse to care for their children and so need kindly couples from America to adopt the Russian children. All the news stories derive from an injured Russian pride.

So Russia is a mess. The people despair.
Putin's solution is to turn to an age old institution that promotes good family values which are sorely lacking in Russian society. That is The Church. In the face of a rapidly decaying social core, Russia turns to the church as a last salvation from the decades of anarchy, atheism, and value-less teachings of a government that has always only cared for itself.

Once you invite the church to take over the nation's social reconstruction, you have to go along with clerical demands. They're doing the work, so if the bishops want the gay movement quashed or a band of hooligans jailed, that's what you give them.
I predict that russia will slowly rebuild now. Sure they have less freedoms, and more restraint on hedonism, but that will encourage people to live lives that construct rather than self destruct.
In ten years, adoptions from Russia may be old news, as Russian people rediscover their humanity in the arms of the church.

Quigley says

Once you invite the church to take over the nation's social reconstruction, you have to go along with clerical demands.

That is an interesting perspective, I hadn't looked at it that way. Since Stalin's time, the Soviet Czar seemed stronger than the church, so I saw it as Putin using the church for cover to distract people from his increasingly corrupt autocracy. But you're probably right that it's a two-way street. Also reportedly he is personally religious, so he might feel he's 'doing the Lord's work'. That is also vanity of course - no omnipotent god could ever need his help, but it makes him feel omnipotent to be doing the Lord's work himself.

There is an old joke about the mentality of different communist countries. I forget the exact words but it went something like this:
If a Hungarian farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say "Give me one cow also."
If a Czech farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say, "I want half the milk from his cow."
If a Russian farmer has one cow, and his communist neighbor has none, the neighbor will say, "Kill his cow."

Some people hate comparative disadvantage more than poverty, I call it the Tonya Harding syndrome. She was a famously good skater, but she couldn't stand the fact that someone else was better, so she would risk everything to kneecap her opponent. Russia is like that, and Captain Tonya falls into it also: whatever their own problems might be, instead of solving those, they want someone else to be made worse off.

Quigley says

I predict that russia will slowly rebuild now. Sure they have less freedoms, and
more restraint on hedonism, but that will encourage people to live lives that
construct rather than self destruct.
In ten years, adoptions from Russia may
be old news, as Russian people rediscover their humanity in the arms of the
church.

Maybe, maybe not. When communism collapsed, it collapsed everything from housing, medical care, guaranteed work and so on. Now nobody wanted to live in communism, but in its place is a wilder version of the wild west. With billionare oligarchs controlling vast empires through massive corruption and the vast majority of folks suffering .

Just because the church is there, doesn't mean those conditions change. Most people want stability, a meaning to their life-some logic-wether that be religious or some other factor-pride in country or some such. The Russians fell from being the counterpart of the USA to a has been-for now. Life is tough and such conditions are fertile for autocratic regimes-religious or otherwise-as people search for someone to lead them out of their misery.

Quigley says

Once you invite the church to take over the nation's social reconstruction...I predict that russia will slowly rebuild now.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that view. The position of organized religion in Russia is not in any way comparable to that now existing in the United States. Many of the leading Orthodox clergy support the policy of repressing liberal movements and encourage the Russian tendency to look with disfavor on popular education. Under the influence of extremely reactionary ecclesiastical officials, you can look forward to not only anti-gay legislation, but also severe measures of repression against non-Russian nationalities, Jews, and dissenters from the Orthodox church.

Quigley says

Putin's solution is to turn to an age old institution that promotes good family values which are sorely lacking in Russian society

We could ALL use some of that. It's a shame you can't roll it up and smoke it. I'd plant me some family values in my front yard.

CaptainShuddup says

I'd plant me some family values in my front yard.

The problem is, when you say "family values," you mean bigotry and discrimination against gay families.

The family values I am concerned with are the particular set of seemingly insane activities whereby one practices self sacrifice instead of indulgence, giving up time with the blokes at the bar for time spent working more so the kids can have all they need. Time spent making a home rather than making yourself happy. Time spent educating and mentoring children so they can grow up to not be knuckle heads. Time and energy spent to feed and hold and rock crying babies. Time spent cleaning up messes and basically performing a radical change in lifestyle to become a mother or a father who cares about the next generation.
It's becoming less selfish. That's the core family value.
Religion is famously good at encouraging people to behave less selfishly. It's a long way from perfect, but it's pretty dang important to the health of a society in general.
Faith is something different, and for purposes of this discussion I'm drawing a line between religion and faith.

I like how Liberals use of dictation to enforce their moral beliefs.
But I also love the Irony that they hate the Church for doing the same thing.

Let's break Bigots down shall we?

"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

obstinately:"Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate. 2. Difficult to manage, control, or subdue; refractory. 3. Difficult to alleviate or cure:"

Gasp! Why that almost sounds like something Religious folks would say about Gay people.

intolerantly : "unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters. b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights : bigoted."

This sure is starting to sound like one big ole redundant way of saying Conservatives are bad, and every description ties back to Bigot, which uses those same words to describe religious people. So I guess what you are saying is Religious people are bigots and if they disagree then they are obstinately a poopy head.

"Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, *including age, *dissension from popular opinions,* socioeconomic status, ethnicity, *language, nationality, *political alignment, race, *region, *religious or spiritual belief. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view."

So it sure sounds like bigotry is one of those words that is "I know I am but what are you?"

Liberals discriminate against age(at least the ones here do, they loathe baby boomers, because they might retire and need elder care.)
They discriminate against socioeconomic status, they loathe the 1%'ers and claim that the Poor are of inferior intellect.
ethnicity they sure spend a lot of time hating the Chinese and wory they might take over the world.
*region, *religious or spiritual belief. they sure do hate religious folks.
*political alignment, who doesn't love a good republican?
*language, nationality race, Yup nothing worse than a fat middle aged white man.

Unlike you folks, I don't hate anyone. If I did, then I wouldn't waste one second here trying to argue or even communicate with a board that obviously has so many that is clearly well and clear out of the closet.
Let's face here, you guys obviously aren't no Warren Beatty.
I don't have to hate gays to be of the opinion that I value family life and values over their lifestyle. I didn't take sides on this issue, it was forced by the gay agenda to crap on it, because they are having an identity crisis.
And I also know there is an even bigger Gay population that thinks those Gay mirage fighters are out of their minds. Gays had their chance to stand up and be heard during the great American Chicken sandwich black out. The were clearly more people that were willing to eat a chicken sandwich and be seen on TV and labeled a bigot by the Gay community for doing so. Then there were Gays that failed to show up the next day, when the Gays were supposed to protest the Chicken shack.
I think one kissing gay couple showed up in San Francisco or something like that.
It seems to me, you guys want it to be a bigger issue for those of us that would rather not be in the know about the gay politics goings on, than your own Gay populous is willing to come out and say "We're here we're queer now get used to it!"

In other words only a Bigot would call someone else a Bigot.

Quigley says

Religion is famously good at encouraging people to behave less selfishly.

Not necessarily: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

CaptainShuddup says

So it sure sounds like bigotry is one of those words that is "I know I am but what are you?"

Liberals discriminate against age(at least the ones here do, they loathe baby boomers, because they might retire and need elder care.)

They discriminate against socioeconomic status, they loathe the 1%'ers and claim that the Poor are of inferior intellect.

Even if one accepted the premise of that entire elaborate straw man, how is saying "old people suck because they need health care" or "poor people are dumb" not less bigoted than saying that gay people shouldn't have equal rights because their lifestyle is dumb/immoral/whatever? Unless you're arguing that liberals don't support the working class or don't support a strong social safety net, which would still somehow not be even in the ballpark of the worst argument you've made here in the last 24 hours.

NO I'm saying I "I" I respect people's views and can still be their friend and even ponder it to some extent. Take from it what I can, and then ignore the rest. As I know, you personally can't do dick all that will effect my life. If I have a problem with the Government, I'd be much better off taking my argument to them.

The Bigot and Race argument is just one that puts the onus to shut the fuck up, on the Conservatives. More so in the last 20 years, where real hatred the kind that really matters is a federal crime and you'll get serious jail time. The Liberal actions seem more racist to me, than those of the Republicans. Democrats by their very action claims that minorities are incapable of achieving goals by them selves. They have some imaginary barrier. But yet, immigrant of all color come to this country every year, and do better than most College educated White people. This has been the land of opportunity for a reason. It is the Liberals that try to rob minorities of those opportunity. By shoving them in government, administrative and service roles, and other dead end jobs.

CaptainShuddup says

you guys want it to be a bigger issue for those of us that would rather not be in the know about the gay politics goings on

LOL - you posted this thread. I hadn't even seen the story until you posted it on PatNet. And you've posted more comments to this thread than anyone else. So actually you are the one trying to make it a bigger issue. Then you blame other people for your own actions, as you blame others for your own choice to insist on your own bigotry. And meanwhile you end up losing whatever argument you have with "the Government" also, because you're so distracted by trying to "defend" a word on behalf of a supposedly omnipotent deity who can't possibly need your help. Pat Robertson and Bill McGuire are probably laughing at you from their private jets, all the way to the bank.

CaptainShuddup says

NO I'm saying I "I" I respect people's views and can still be their friend and even ponder it to some extent. Take from it what I can, and then ignore the rest. As I know, you personally can't do dick all that will effect my life. If I have a problem with the Government, I'd be much better off taking my argument to them.

Congratulations on your ability to ponder things, but the only reason this is an issue is that tolerant people like yourself are currently restricting the rights of a group of people. You have the right to have an opinion, and you have the right to express that opinion, but you don't have the right to not be made fun of by smarter people with better opinions.

Yes but this came to ahead in Moscow because of the drama queens in Moscow putting on exhibitions for attention. Rather than just enjoying their freedom to have Tom love Dick. They had to make protests out of it, then get caught up in the Pussyriot brouhaha. They should remember the Bird and the Cat fable. "If you're warm and happy under a pile of shit, then keep your mouth shut."

curious2 says

Pat Robertson and Bill McGuire are probably laughing at you from their private jets, all the way to the bank.

Who?

Stay out of my threads you jack wagon, at least everyone else reserves the name calling until after they've said something important.

CaptainShuddup says

Who?

You don't even know who your real enemies are? Please, look them up. They are the people who have been picking your pocket while you've been distracting yourself with the bigotry that they planted in you for that purpose.