patrick.net

Stay Relevant my friends.

The problem with STEM workers not being able to find a job, is stepping into HR traps. Like applying for unemployment, entertaining every lead from every Head hunter, interviewing HR people first instead of technical principals in a project. Working at Costco and actually putting it on your resume. And feeling defeated when someone calls you out on Resume gaps. And most importantly know your niche in your field and market, and market your self accordingly.

Don't apply for UE, it is a disqualifier for ever working in your field ever again. It's toxic to your career and companies don't want you after that.

Be selective when recruiters call, have an idea of companies you're willing to work for and projects you're willing to do. Being proactive, picky and selective fucks HR and Recruiters selective system up. They don't know how to react to that, they expect desperate quivering souls at the other end of the phone when they call.

Ask what company is the job for, if they wont tell you that, ask them what industry vertical do they serve. What type of project is it, who are contact principals you'll be interviewing with?

Take your time, stay positive, stay focused, and don't sweat it.

I often take three month breaks or longer between jobs. I do some freelance work for friends or find some hapless small business soul who desperately needs software help on Craigslist, and do some work for them for a while. You probably wont make the same money you're used to making. But you may also use that time to brush up leading edge technology that you may have not had the opportunity at your last job. Remember staying relevant is 99% of finding your next job. I either explain employment gaps, as working on my own projects or contracting for projects for people who knew me. Make it sound like they had to wait a long time for you to be between jobs, so you could do some work for them. When the gap wasn't because of handling personal accounts, I just tell them I made the conscious decision to take some time off. As most Software developers who contract, don't get paid Vacations, so we have to take when we can.

Most people in STEM get left behind because they become Dinosaurs who's biggest skill set is in antiquated technology, that there isn't any demand for anymore. Unless you're a JDE developer.

I find the more I blow these people off by being selective, the more feverishly they work at actually trying to match me to the right job.
Where as, had I took the first assignment they called me about, and not been a fit during the interview process. Those recruiters will never ever call you again. But I find by laying my skills set out for them and being selective in the companies I'm willing to interface with. I become a challenge for those recruiters. They seem willing to keep trying until they find you a fit.

Eventually after you blow through all of the first callers in your town, and you didn't land a job at those interviews. Then there's no one left to call you about job openings but Indian telemarketers in other states. The word is pretty much out on you at that point, and your name is Mudd.

(No Disrespect Intended)

He didn't buy a house and have a mortgage there by is cursed by the Oligarchical Gods.

REMEMBER I SAID the economy is robust, healthy, and creating a booming, outstanding housing market !

Seriously, that was a great thing you did, congrats.

You stepped up and helped him. That's more than a lot of people would do.

when my grandfather was a young man in ireland ...he had no job no prospects he earned money on the docks in liverpool to pay for passage to america ...he got a job in hostile-to irish BOSTON in the early 1900's worked"every day except christmas" and raised nine kids built a house survived.. i saw him when he was very old his son a doctor had him stay with his family he was welcome in the houses of a school teacher,a postal inspector etc...his kids with what i know now i would shake his hand ...respectful of the hero he had become..i too worked hard learning that it is nt what you do or what you made its what you do with it to leave a mark on your kids so they can become something now those opportunities are gone in this place ...so if i was a young man i would pick up my sack and strike out for some other country (english speaking )and find a new home as it was in ireland this place is played out and barren ...it was a good run for 300 years ...time to take our ingenuity to another country ...leave the place to the landowners overseers and bankers let them wait for their greed to devour them ...emmigrate!

I think if you consider an individual to be a good co worker and not in the good friend tier then you definitely did enough to help out. Yes, if you let him stay in the house it would probably help him out more than 1 week at hotel, but you should definitely discuss it with your wife and come to a mutual agreement. If you guys were both to agree, I think 3 months should be max otherwise the situation can get out of hand.

Sorry Goran but its not gonna work out.

Having lived in a house with multiple roommates, I'm aware of the scams, excuses, etc.

Fact is, your buddy could get two full time security jobs right at this moment @$9-$12 an hour... More than enough to live on.

But he isn't doing that. And that says it all IMO.

Good on ya', Goran....a nice deed, indeed.

Being in the "good former co-worker" category I am sure -- at least I hope -- you are not the first person he called, or maybe he was too embarrassed to call a "real" friend.

Hopefully spending the week in a donated hotel room will give him enough perspective to face reality.

If he has been unemployed for "a while" and has been looking for work "for a long time" his resume is already ruined.

He is not "close to getting a job" unless he is -- at the very least -- getting call backs for second round interviews, the long time silent responses to his resume should be a deafening proclamation as to the status of his job search.

You are correct that he should expand his job search to include Costco, Starbucks, etc. Being able to pay ones' bills is much more attractive to a perspective employer than homeless/couch surfing longtime unemployment. It sounds like he is letting his pride get in the way of his survival.

Anyway, it sounds like you have done more than could be expected of you for now. I would probably check in on him in a few days and see how things are going.

I am sure that it sucks to be in his position and I hope everything works out in the end.

Yeah tell him to go to the HR gloryhole at Starbucks they'll give him a job and a badge.

Goran_K says

Been looking for work in the finance industry for a long time

1. how long has he been unemployed?
2. you don't need to put your starbucks job on the resume. i would've told him to: "get a job, slacker"

Hysteresis says

you don't need to put your starbucks job on the resume. i would've told him

Yeah. When I finished my post-graduate degree and was looking for a job, I worked temporarily for one of those 900 lines where people call to have a good time and they charge 4.99 bucks a minute to talk dirty. My job was to talk to the caller and take down his preferances and pass it on to the women. Interesting job-but you don't see that in my resume! :)

But Goran, very nice of you to help out. Sometimes, when people get into that funky, depressed mood, it gets very difficult to snap out. I myslef fell into a bad state once. Bad decisions, bad luck and events all combined and led me to a place where I could not dig out myself. I was practically estranged from my parents at that time-they are well-off and very old school. Hard working, save every penny , but very vocal about their opinion. I had to go back and make adjustments to my self. I think too much govt welfare is not good-people do not want to adjust as long as you get a check with no strings attached.

Of course this case is different, who knows his personal story-sometimes it just is not your fault. But hope he snaps out of it and moves on. Life is like that.

CaptainShuddup says

Don't apply for UE, it is a disqualifier for ever working in your field ever again. It's toxic to your career and companies don't want you after that.

How will employers know if you collected UE?

That's the thing that kills me. He's talking about how working at Costco is a step down, and how living at a shelter is giving up. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to survive.

I don't want to force my value system on him, but when you're pretty much on the streets, that's sort of a desperate situation.

I think you are a very kind person. You cannot kick yourself for not having the words to help your friend realize that the rules change when one is desperate. He has to come to that realization on his own.

It's not always easy to change the lens through which one sees life. Sounds like his pride in his past accomplishments are all he has right now. I think you show a great deal of compassion not stripping him of that. Hopefully, he will soon realize that what he's holding onto are just titles and don't really define who he is as a person. But no one can make him know that until he is ready to accept his situation as it is now -- and not what it was a couple of years ago.

He hasn't hit rock bottom yet. When he's sleeping on the streets, he'll realize working at Costco is not the worst thing in the world.

Sounds like there is something wrong with his thought process, but it was nice of you to do that for him.

You did a fine thing, Goran.

The benefit of having some cheap desert acreage is that you could have pitched a yurt for him far enough out from the little lady that she'd hardly know he was there. Then put him to work around the spread...washing the cars, implement maintenance, cooking, cleaning, painting, running fence...

Anyway, could be someday this fella gets his shit back together and can help you out in return.

Never ask for whom the bell tolls!

Thanks for the input guys. I sent him an e-mail for the rescue mission. He can decide to go there or not. I hope he's smart and decides to take the opportunity to get back on his feet.

Many more applicants than jobs at Costco these days....it's not a slam dunk that a job at Costco would be offered to him.

Dollar Tree, perhaps....

i recently had a friend become homeless. i gave him some money but refused to take him in. Others did and they are no longer friends.
Also, looking back, I watched him do everything to himself to make himself homeless after his live in girlfriend of 8 years left him.
Once his unemployment ran out cause he stopped showing up for his job, he applied for disability insurance and got it along with 180 dollars a month on an EBT card.
The guy now is set for life as soon as his section 8 kicks in. Whats wrong with him you ask, No Job !

I don't lend friends money, but I will pay them to never ask me for money again, until they at least pay me back for the money I give them.
I make that clear up front. They don't have to feel pressured to pay me back next week, or next month. Because that usually sets a pattern. Chances are by the time they get the first money to pay back anything. They are so far behind on everything. That if they are actually honorable enough to consider paying me first. Then chances are great they'll just be back next day, week or next month to make up the difference in paying you back, that it made them short on their current needs.

Pay me back when you get on your feet or don't. But don't ask me for more money.

That way I don't lose people as friends or family.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

You should taken him home...

I think there should be some untold standard of respect on Patnet, that you don't inappropriately quip on folks families.

You can call me a red headed no good son of a bitch, an asshole and chicken fucker, but leave people's families out of it.

I agree. No bashing on people's families, or ridiculous untasteful comments.

dodgerfanjohn says

Sorry Goran but its not gonna work out.

Having lived in a house with multiple roommates, I'm aware of the scams, excuses, etc.

Fact is, your buddy could get two full time security jobs right at this moment @$9-$12 an hour... More than enough to live on.

But he isn't doing that. And that says it all IMO.

I've always had good experiences with communal living. The way to make it work is to take charge. Most people are followers, so long as you can be a good leader and run the show, set good examples, and take no bullshit, it can work well for everyone.

My third house was my sophomore year at university. We' d have big parties every Thursday, and regardless of who had to work the door and sell cups, the money would land in my pocket at the end of the night, and if you didn't hang around and help clean up, you wouldn't get your share. That was usually always motivation enough.

Human capital trumps dollars everytime, and thru these types of relationships, I have a stable of useful friends now that can help me out with anything id need, that I couldn't do myself. Reciprocate in kind

Good on you, goran

Goran_K says

I agree. No bashing on people's families, or ridiculous untasteful comments.

But what about the comment where he gave me permission to call him a "red headed no good son of a bitch, an asshole and a chicken-fucker"?

Can I at least call him that from now on?

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

Can I at least call him that from now on?

You bet pudding pants!

I don't know if this is an option where your friend is but up here the EDD runs promatch:

http://promatch.org/

It's free and I found it useful to keep my job search going.

It is distasteful, but Captain doesn't seem to have a problem with it. No harm, no foul.

Hysteresis says

Goran_K says

Been looking for work in the finance industry for a long time

1. how long has he been unemployed?

2. you don't need to put your starbucks job on the resume. i would've told him to: "get a job, slacker"

Resumes are obsolete. If he's looking for work in finance, they're going to do a detailed background check and when they do they'll find the Starbucks job. And he's right. There are certain things you can't do, like take a service job or collect unemployment if you have worked in finance and want to re-enter the field.

My dad worked in hospital administration and he wouldn't collect unemployment either. He knew that the background check would out him and he'd never get a management position again. Thankfully, he got another job within three months (this was back in 2004, so before the recession). If this guy takes the McJob, or multiple McJobs, that's his future, low paid service work. HR can afford to be choosey and just like some jobs require college degrees even though most high schoolers could do them, so HR can weed out people who did the right thing and took whatever work they could get when unemployed. It's reprehensible, but it's the way the system works.

futuresmc says

There are certain things you can't do, like take a service job or collect
unemployment if you have worked in finance and want to re-enter the field.

Why would it look better to be unemployed? Is there some sort of implied classism on the part of hiring managers?

dublin hillz says

Why would it look better to be unemployed? Is there some sort of implied classism on the part of hiring managers?

Yeah frankly I don't get it. A long gap in your resume, or the background check mentioned above are going to show a hole. How is being homeless better than collecting UE? I'd think a "no permanent address" has got to be bigger baggage. Seriously, who has not ridden with someone that sees someone "looking homeless" on the roadside and they hit the power door locks? There's an assumption engrained in American culture that hobos are criminals until proven otherwise.

if I was this guy, id begin my resume with "hey, at least I knew better then to discuss my side capers with out of town women, lest ole gorank square ass would have narced me out to my old lady"

That should count for something

futuresmc says

There are certain things you can't do, like take a service job or collect unemployment if you have worked in finance and want to re-enter the field.

My dad worked in hospital administration and he wouldn't collect unemployment either. He knew that the background check would out him and he'd never get a management position again.

Again, why is collecting UE such a no-no? This is the first I've heard of it. Do you have any evidence a prospective employer's HR even has access to this information?

dublin hillz says

Is there some sort of implied classism on the part of hiring managers?

Of course there is, there's not a day goes by that CNN isn't reinforcing that classism. Of course if you ever want to work in your industry again, never ever take advice from a CNN article on how to find a job, or what to do now that you're unemployed.

First they tell unemployed people to do all of the standard quick fix stuff, then the next day they report on how HR managers nation wide will look down their noses on them.

New Renter says

Again, why is collecting UE such a no-no?

Honestly, it sounds like some sort of superstitious tale cooked up by someone with *zero* UE experience OR someone who blamed that (instead of a consistent work history) for not landing a position.

New Renter says

Do you have any evidence a prospective employer's HR even has access to this information?

Not really public record, but lexus/nexis knows as does anyone in a credit agency.

Well, I know quite a few people who went on unemployment and still manage to find projects. One person regularly goes off a few months after every project and goes on unemployment. Since the project was over and he got rolled-off, they never denied his claims. He does not have trouble finding projects.

But most of the people I interact with over the last few years have been consultants who work through companies that then contract with the preferred vendors. But I work in mostly big corporations that employ armies of contractors for projects-so maybe different?

I think if I were to lose a tech job and have some trouble finding a new one I'd go back to school for a semester. That way I could claim I was improving my skill set and also would have a chance to network, possibly get leads from staff or other graduating students on job prospects.
Just my thoughts.

On a related note, there's a species of human who always needs a handout and never seems to be able to stand alone. People call them lazy or unfortunate or swindlers or panhandlers or mooch artists. I've learned better. They are simply people who have no compunction about taking other people's money and are just way too lazy to be bothered with supporting themselves or others. It's a very mild sort of sociopathy, but it's highly annoying if you have one in the family. Be aware: they never get better because they truly don't want to improve themselves. Instead life is a game whereby they win only when they successfully guilt others into giving them what they need.

CaptainShuddup says

New Renter says

Do you have any evidence a prospective employer's HR even has access to this information?

Not really public record, but lexus/nexis knows as does anyone in a credit agency.

A LexisNexis report does indeed contain insurance claim information but only for home and auto claims:

https://personalreports.lexisnexis.com/

No mention of unemployment insurance at all.

Unemployment claims also are NOT reported to credit agencies:

http://www.experian.com/ask-experian/20080319-unemployment-claims-do-not-affect-your-credit-report.html

I do not know this for a fact but it was my impression unemployment claims are kept confidential for precisely the reasons you outline. There is also the logic former employers have a stronger motivation NOT to disclose this information since if the person does not get a job, their claim will continue to drain the pot AND it can come back to bite them as a lawsuit.

Now if you know something I don't please share, if not please say so and we can move forward.

New Renter says

I do not know this for a fact but it was my impression unemployment claims are kept confidential for precisely the reasons you outline. There is also the logic former employers have a stronger motivation NOT to disclose this information since if the person does not get a job, their claim will continue to drain the pot AND it can come back to bite them as a lawsuit.

1. The company which formerly employed you is contacted to validate the reason you gave for separation which determines eligibility. They could pass that information on to a future employer.

2. Financial services companies often ask applicants for their tax returns and those should include 1099G forms for unemployment insurance payments.