patrick.net

You mean stay on message and format.
At my daughter's graduation her HS principal gave a manufactured crappy half assed speech. I wanted to vomit over the balcony railing of my low brow swanky Operahouse balcony seat.

She gave a inspirational speech that had everything but inspiration. Telling the students to be community servants first in life then citizens second. Serve your community, city, town, state, country anywhere or anything. Join the military, run for office, get a city job, a government job. She went on and on for about 20 minutes emploring those students to be anything in life but productive citizens in society. Not one mention of being creative, productive, inventive, inspirational, job creators, builders, architects, industrialists, innovators, not one damn mention of anything but get a public job and live off the teet.

Then she finished if off with this little number...

"When you aim for the moon, if you miss. You might not end up on the moon, but it will put you somewhere among the Stagrgrgrgrs. "

Then a few days later, I saw a news clip of the Valedictorian of another school. He was being featured because he was shot in the head earlier this year. The segment ended with him quoting what his principal said at his graduation...

"When you aim for the moon, if you miss. You might not end up on the moon, but it will put you somewhere among the Stagrgrgrgrs. "

...See I used to think that was some Cold shit I would say before I pop a cap and gown on their ass, and sent him out into cold world.

It would have been more genuine had the Liberal Reeducation comity sent out this canned graduation speech for all of the principals in the public schools to lay on them instead...

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee. "

Vicente says

graduation ceremony is place for anything other than some forgettable speeches
and a DIPLOMA, but they are always with us.

After the students busted their ass for 4+ years I don't think it's that big of a deal if they celebrate originally when walking on the stage, but yes it should not be indecent.

CaptainShuddup says

You mean stay on message and format.

Yes that's what I mean.

Look I have friends who sit on the review committee for speakers at a university graduation. I was talking about this with them recently, and they allow any student to submit a speech, not just handpicked "top" students. However they go through the speeches and disapprove the ones that are not appropriate. One example given to me was a girl who wanted to give a speech about her dating adventures at the university and included shoutouts for Match.com. Another was a student who was very cynical and negative. Parents don't want to hear that shit at graduation, it's not appropriate. Parents are there to see their little Mr./Ms. Sunshine walk across the stage, get a diploma and take a few pictures. Ultimately the purpose of the graduation ceremony is to put a DONE stamp on the student and please the parents not the students. Everything else is to be generally positive or at least inoffensive. Shenanigans await at their own private parties I'm sure, why do we need that in public?

Vicente says

Parents are there to see their little Mr./Ms. Sunshine walk across the stage,
get a diploma and take a few pictures

The reality will set in later that evening as the "sunshine" boomerangs back home!

What's wrong with education in America?

Problem 1 - too much focus on recreation, not enough on school:

Problem 2 - rampant cheating:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/education/harvard-forced-dozens-to-leave-in-cheating-scandal.html?_r=0

Problem 3 -diminishing return on investment:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/college-student-debt

Problem 4 - lowering of standards:
http://educationnext.org/theleastcommondenominator/

(perceived) Problem 5 - picky employers
http://www.edudemic.com/2013/05/stem-skills-gap/
(STEM biased but likely translates to other fields as well)

CaptainShuddup says

I have an aging Baby Boomer mother, who barely has enough money to live off from SS, and for the first time in over 20 years she's been SS is seeing not only her income benefits being cut, but her health coverage as well.

If she has been on SS 20 years, she is at least 17 years from being a baby boomer.

CaptainShuddup says

went back to Peru in 2010, because living conditions in America for an illegal alien under Obama was the hardest it's ever been. His quality of life is better back in Lima Peru in a shanty squalid town.

Of course the lack of good employment opportunities, and the depression are a direct result of Obama's policies.

Your arguments are just too damn compelling.

CaptainShuddup says

I had at least 12 months of living expenses saved up in the bank when Obama came in office. Now I all it would take is me not working for one month to send my life into a destitute tailspin.

This "it's all Obama's fault" is what's so transparent, and so old. MAybe you're the type of person that needs someone to blame. Someone to hate. It makes you feel better somehow. But from my perspective it makes you look like a simpleton.

Then again, the truth may be more complex and more disturbing than you can handle.

One thing that should be obvious to anyone with any sense at all. That is that this current economic situation (zero % interest rates, while unemployment stays high) is the result of trends and policies that have been in place for decades. The chickens have come home to roost on long standing policy blunders that all occurred before Obama.

As for NSA and IRS issues ? Even you have to understand that these are more distraction than anything. Great fodder for the ignorant haters though. Possibly preventing another outbreak of the occupy movement too.

CaptainShuddup says

Not one mention of being creative, productive, inventive, inspirational, job creators, builders, architects, industrialists, innovators, not one damn mention of anything but get a public job and live off the teet.

Yeah, all that talk of service to others gets old really fast. And it's impossible for some to even comprehend what it's all about. Everyone knows that chasing after money is a far more rewarding path.

When they talk at those ceremonies about service to others and the community, everyone knows it's absolutely impossible to do that while being say an innovator, or productive. For example what did those google guys ever do for anyone ?

Vicente says

Parents are there to see their little Mr./Ms. Sunshine walk across the stage, get a diploma and take a few pictures. Ultimately the purpose of the graduation ceremony is to put a DONE stamp on the student and please the parents not the students. Everything else is to be generally positive or at least inoffensive. Shenanigans await at their own private parties I'm sure, why do we need that in public?

Oh but the parents wooping and hollering, "Yo AJ!" "Whooooo Ray Ray! hey Ray Ray!" is just fine? They should walk into the audience and usher them outside chastising them in a condescending tone the whole damn way. If there was ever a purpose for God making people condescending sniveling cranky ass munches, it's for that reason.

marcus says

If she has been on SS 20 years, she is at least 17 years from being a baby boomer.

I like how you guys THINK you have everything figured out.
She was a stay at home Mom who married a man 18 years older than her.

marcus says

As for NSA and IRS issues ? Even you have to understand that these are more distraction than anything. Great fodder for the ignorant haters though. Possibly preventing another outbreak of the occupy movement too.

But of course!

Sit down Jr. I'll bitch about Obama's mishandling of Democracy FOR YOU.
You can thank us later, you ungrateful little prick.

Okay, but first tune in to Fox to get all your talking points, okay ? And always remember everything in the government and in your life that you don't like, all started in 2009 and is the fault of Obama. (fricking dimbulb)

CaptainShuddup says

I like how you guys THINK you have everything figured out.

Observing that what you say doesn't make any sense is a far cry from having everything figured out.

So the SS benefits she receives now (at perhaps 65) don't go as far as they did when she was 45. Okay. I don't suppose there are AAAANNYYY other factors that have changed relating to work, spouse, finances ? Everything else was constant, so it's easy to see how much worse the SS benefits are for her now than then ?

Oh yeah and let's not forget. It's Obama's fault.

Actually, I would have to agree that OBama was too quick to put SS on the table and talking about using "chained CPI" (for increases) instead of the CPI. SO I don't blame you for being pissed about that one. But I don't believe there have been actual cuts to SS.. That chained CPi will make a difference only over the long term.

But as the boomers age, and become an even more important voting block, I'm sure this will be offset by other policies that are in their favor.

marcus says

(fricking dimbulb)

You honestly think there's even filament in my bulb?

I don't get whether that's self deprecation, or more of a statement about how you think I see you.

You have your moments, but you could do yourself a favor by watching a little less Fox, and obsessing a little less about Obama. There's already going to be a big circus around anything and everything they can find to instigate.

Remember Clinton ? How many attempts were there to find something (with a special prosecutor no less) before they hit paydirt with blowjobs from an intern ?

As much as any dirt on Obama thrills you, you must be able to understand the mechanism behind it. And that a little careful consideration needs to be given to what is legit and what is just same old same old from the idiot assholes that hate him.

marcus says

You have your moments, but you could do yourself a favor by watching a little less Fox, and obsessing a little less about Obama. There's already going to be a big circus around anything and everything they can find to instigate.

It's Alright everyone, Marcus is from the Government he's here to help. Pay no attention to the Red Circus.

The verbal lashings will continue until Obama's effectiveness improves.

New Renter says

Daddy's so glad he's paying $25,000/yr for this.

What's wrong w/ education? I say unions/administration, cheap $$, and the retarted notion that everyone should go to college.

- UNIONS/ADMINISTRATION... I read somewhere that in the past 10-15 years, college enrollments has gone up 26%. The admin/white collar administrator employed by these colleges/universities has gone up 76%... I'll find the link when I have time...

- CHEAP $$$.. Giving out a college loan (much like the housing bubble runup) to anyone w/ a heartbeat. 50+K in debt, BLAMMO, instantly, only to discover that johnny thinks reading and math is hard, moves back home w/ mommy while wearing that 50K of debt like an albatross.

- COLLEGE ISN'T FOR EVERYONE....It's a cultural flaw here in the US. Shit, Germany figured this out a loooong time ago, and has a separate dual-path system to educate its kids: white collar traditional education and blue collar/vocational training. No loss in dignity, and no loafer son living at home w/ 50K of debt.

Time to get back to work, or hit the books.

marcus says

Okay, but first tune in to Fox to get all your talking points, okay ? And always remember everything in the government and in your life that you don't like, all started in 2009 and is the fault of Obama. (fricking dimbulb)

--------------------------------------

I always hear this argument and laugh. I never liked bush either, but he was better than the alternative at the time....As a fiscal conservative he was a joke (CHIP, no child left behind, etc)... Obama took those bad fiscal traits and double/triple-downed. He bullied a shit-sandwich called Obamacare down our throats, and now even the Democrat congressmen and aids are gagging. The unions that now realize they are fucked are gagging. Obama-care architect Max Baucas is gagging (and retiring), while calling Obamacare a 'Train Wreck'....

Bush had flaws other than being a fiscal wus. Obama took that one flaw to a new hideous art-form.

Vicente says

What's wrong?

NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND!

The sooner we get that shit repealed the better.

Vic, I think this is the first time that I actually agree with you. "No Child" like many laws, have good intentions w/ shitty results that nobody thought about. When Bush signed this into law, many conservatives were annoyed....

AverageBear says

What's wrong w/ education? I say unions/administration, cheap $$, and the retarted notion that everyone should go to college.

- UNIONS/ADMINISTRATION... I read somewhere that in the past 10-15 years, college enrollments has gone up 26%. The admin/white collar administrator employed by these colleges/universities has gone up 76%... I'll find the link when I have time...

OK.. I found the link(s).. Very discouraging info indeed......

http://michaelgraham.com/why-college-is-a-ripoff-part-xxii-big-bucks-for-bureaucrats/

http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x1307049946/TOP-HEAVY-U-As-tuition-soars-colleges-add-more-administrators-than-students-or-faculty

......"Over the last 25 years, the universities’ enrollments have collectively grown by 26 percent, while the ranks of full-time administrators have risen 75 percent, not only at private universities but also at some public ones…

During the same 25-year period, tuition at four-year universities nationwide has increased an inflation-adjusted 85 percent, federal figures show......"

....."In all, Massachusetts’ 116 universities and colleges have collectively added almost 51,000 employees in the last 25 years, or eight per working day.

Universities have gone from one full-time employee for every five students during this period to one for every four, and the number of administrators from one for every 47 students to one for every 35, the data show.

“In no other industry would overhead costs be allowed to grow at this rate — executives would lose their jobs,” analysts at the Boston-based financial management firm Bain & Company wrote, in a July white paper, of administrative spending in higher education......"

I come from a long line of public school teachers. I'm actually one of the few in my family who didn't become one myself. So I have some wide-ranging and up close observations concerning education in the US in general.

The simple truth is that it isn't about Unions, students per classroom, no child left behind, or any of the other political talking points people bring up continuously. Want to know what it boils down to? Money.

We in the US spend comparatively less per student than most other developed Western countries. This is because in so many cases the funds, taxes, and other finances attached and meant for education get re-purposed for other uses totally unrelated to education.

So the first manner of business to fix this is to take a look at these funds and press the "reset" button. That would probably solve a lot of the problems then and there without having to raise additional funds. But if not, then other means to increase spending on education should be considered.

Now- there is a catch-22 with spending on education. Everyone says they want good schools, yet time and again I've seen situations where a new tax or a new allocation for schools was proposed and then nothing happens because there is a public outcry over that additional cost. Here's the irony: WHAT is the very first thing that any family with children ask when they start looking to buy a house?

" How good are the schools here?". And as we've all seen, the areas with the better schools get higher prices for the houses surrounding that school(s). So perhaps while increasing the spend on schools sounds unpleasant to some, the outcome would cause a positive domino effect in the communities that supported such a measure: More money for schools means more means to improve, and with improvements comes higher home prices, more workers hired as a result to take care of or service those homes, teachers making better incomes to in turn buy in their communities, and so on. A good school can become a financial anchor in any community.

At the end of the day, if we continue to spend less and less on schools then the kids in those schools will become less and less able to get the skills they will need later to support a future economy. Sounds like a cliche' but true.

sbh says

You're still misquoting him. It's the "implementation" (which the Republicans are sabotaging) which will be a trainwreck.

OK, so I'm misquoting. Regardless, do you get the warm and fuzzies when one of the architects of Obamacare mentions "Train Wreck and Obamacare" in the same sentence? The Rebublicans are sabotaging it, because they are trying to stop this, and know this legislature is pure, 100% shit. The unions who lined up in support of this, are screaming bloody murder. Democrats in Congress (and their aids) are openly wondering how they can escape this abortion of a law. Many are retiring just to escape these healthcare rules. ... And answer me this. Why do the supporters of Obamacare ignore CBO report, after CBO report that states Obamacare is gonna cost a shitload of money, estimates that keep rising and rising? eh? This tells me Obama and Pelosi told a ton of lies and twisted a ton of arms for this gigantic failure.

edvard2 says

I come from a long line of public school teachers. I'm actually one of the few in my family who didn't become one myself. So I have some wide-ranging and up close observations concerning education in the US in general.

The simple truth is that it isn't about Unions, students per classroom, no child left behind, or any of the other political talking points people bring up continuously. Want to know what it boils down to? Money.

Ed, no way. So do I. Many on both sides of my family (more on my Dad's side) were teachers in the NYC public school system. My Dad's biggest complaint was the unions. He was in the UFT, and yet did enjoy the benefits of membership during his retirement. He could have easily climbed the ranks into Superintendent and up, but he loved to teach, and did it for 40 years. His biggest gripe were the 'paper pushers' who really didn't have a clue on how to teach, what was really important; yet they wielded the most power in dictating to my Dad and others on how to teach. As the decades went by, these 'paper pushers' as a group grew in size, yet the school he taught in didn't get the attention in costs of infrastructure/sports/books/supplies. Plenty of money for the union 'paper pushers', but not for the kids. My Dad made decent $$ and wasn't a spendthrift. His Mom (my grandmother) was a teacher in the Bronx....... Another sad story...My aunt taught in a really crappy part of Queens (Bellrose?).... During the winter there wasn't enough $$ to heat the school (or fix it to hold the heat)... So my Aunt (the ballbuster that she was), told the kids to wear their winter jackets during class picture day; and specifically during the class picture itself. The principle had a shit fit. She told him to fuck off and fix the heat, or she was gonna take it up w/ the Daily News (the heat got fixed that week). Plenty of $$ for the fatcat UFT union assholes/paperpushers that live in Westchester county, CT, etc, but no $$ left to keep the kids warm in the winter so they can learn...... This is why I have a BIG problem w/ public unions.

edvard2 says

Now- there is a catch-22 with spending on education. Everyone says they want good schools, yet time and again I've seen situations where a new tax or a new allocation for schools was proposed and then nothing happens because there is a public outcry over that additional cost. Here's the irony: WHAT is the very first thing that any family with children ask when they start looking to buy a house?

Ed, I understand this, as my town recently went through this battle. I went to the town meetings on this, and asked for a line item breakdown of the funding of the town's education costs. I specifically wanted to know the increase in administration (both headcount, and a % of the budget) compared to the increase of the student population. They wouldn't give me these #'s. When I asked what % of the increased cost that prompted the vote to exempt prop 2 1/2, would go towards administration, they wouldn't give me those #'s either. In pleasant double-speak they asked me to shut up, as they had more important topics to cover.

AverageBear says

WHAT is the very first thing that any family with children ask when they start looking to buy a house?

i thought that's code for "white only neighborhood" or do they really refer to the school?

Mark D says

AverageBear says

WHAT is the very first thing that any family with children ask when they start looking to buy a house?

i thought that's code for "white only neighborhood" or do they really refer to the school?

Its not unless "white" includes rich Chinese and Indians now

Actually, Bellerose is middle-class, on the eastern edge of queens bordering Long Island. Bellerose village (LI) is upper middle-class and Bellerose Terrace(LI) is middle class as well. All of the Belleroses are majority white with significant Asian population, esp on the Long Island side. This has been the case for at least 20 years. Surrounding towns such as Floral Park, NY and New Hyde Park, NY are also middle class with significant Indian populations.

If middle to upper middle class, predominantly white neighborhoods can't be bothered to fix the heat in school, it doesn't say much positive about the teachers union in NYC.

AverageBear says

My aunt taught in a really crappy part of Queens (Bellrose?).... During the winter there wasn't enough $$ to heat the school (or fix it to hold the heat)

edvard2 says

Now- there is a catch-22 with spending on education. Everyone says they want good schools, yet time and again I've seen situations where a new tax or a new allocation for schools was proposed and then nothing happens because there is a public outcry over that additional cost. Here's the irony: WHAT is the very first thing that any family with children ask when they start looking to buy a house?

The reason this is a big problem is due to the way schools are primarily funded, namely through the local tax base. This virtually guarantees a substandard education for the children of the poor and working classes. If we funded education through state taxes instead of local taxes and required equal per pupil spending, we wouldn't have such discrepancies between the children in neighborhoods with high home values and those with low home values. It would also give us better data for when we look at state education programs as we'd have a better picture of whether or not a program's success or failure was representative of the state overall or just choice districts.

futuresmc says

f we funded education through state taxes instead of local taxes and required equal per pupil spending,

You want to take away power from all the local school boards with all their petty local politics and egos? Good luck with that.

CaptainShuddup says

The verbal lashings will continue until Obama's effectiveness improves

Right.

You and your heroes (the right wing) all predicted he would be terrible, and then at every turn you did everything you could to prevent him from doing anything.

Now you complain he isn't more effective, and get excited at every possible percieved government injustice that you think (hope) can be pinned on Obama.

It's pathetic really.

AverageBear says

Bush had flaws other than being a fiscal wus. Obama took that one flaw to a new hideous art-form.

That's where you have no clue.

Is it that the stimulus should have been more that bothers you ? Or was it that he increased spending so much less that any of the previous recent presidents ?

Let me guess. It's because tax revenues decreased in the depression, relative to all the spending that was already put in motion before Obama even got there.

If it's that he didn't let the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 like everyone said they would, then I would agree. He was a wuss about that.

bob2356 says

You want to take away power from all the local school boards with all their petty local politics and egos? Good luck with that.

Compared to a state legislature, local boards have no power. All they can do is whine to the press and even there the state reps would have more juice. The real opponents would be those who own homes in high value districts, those who profit directly from the status quo, and those who wish to eliminate public education altogether.

Also, I didn't say you take the power from local school boards, only collect taxes and distribute the money at the state level instead of the local. This would be about equitizing educational funding between districts in the same state.

futuresmc says

Compared to a state legislature, local boards have no power. All they can do is whine to the press and even there the state reps would have more juice. The real opponents would be those who own homes in high value districts, those who profit directly from the status quo, and those who wish to eliminate public education altogether.

Also, I didn't say you take the power from local school boards, only collect taxes and distribute the money at the state level instead of the local. This would be about equitizing educational funding between districts in the same state.

First off, I used to serve on the local school board. I know a little bit about all this.

In California, school funding is not based on local taxes. It is based on ADA, or Average Daily Attendance. Schools get funded based on how many kids are in seats. There isn't a huge disparity either between districts in poor vs rich areas, due to the Serrano v Priest Case from the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrano_v._Priest $300 is the max per student discrepancy from one district to another. (that isn't counting federal aid poorer districts receive in Title I and Title III, Economic Impact Aid, etc money).

As for the biggest problem in public education, to me one huge problem is local school boards. Many times, you get PTA parents, especially stay at home or retired women, that don't have much business or other experience. They have never managed people, let alone a budget north of $60-$100 million. I can't tell you how many times I have met other school board members, and walked away unimpressed by their caliber.

You get school boards with no experience hiring superintendents that aren't good leaders, hiring administrators with poor documenting skills, managing teachers whose evaluations are incomplete, or worse, non-existent.

And there's your biggest problem right there. It's not necessarily the unions, although firing bad teachers and admins should be easier. Lack of parential involvement too adds to the problem.

futuresmc says

Also, I didn't say you take the power from local school boards, only collect taxes and distribute the money at the state level instead of the local.

That has to be the most naive thing I've ever read. The money is the power. Local school boards would fight any state control of funding tooth and nail. Have you ever had any contact with a local school board, it's very enlightning to say the least.

Waitingtobuy says

You get school boards with no experience hiring superintendents that aren't
good leaders, hiring administrators with poor documenting skills, managing
teachers whose evaluations are incomplete, or worse, non-existent.

And there's your biggest problem right there. It's not necessarily the
unions, although firing bad teachers and admins should be easier. Lack of
parential involvement too adds to the problem.

While that's true, look at the biggest bugdetary items(overhead) and how they aren't even related to teaching, and yet if they're threatened to be done away with, the howls and screams come out in force.

Sports, or the cost of programs/equipment related to them, and it's for a very tiny percentage of the enrollment that uses/participtes in them.

upisdown says

While that's true, look at the biggest bugdetary items(overhead) and how they aren't even related to teaching, and yet if they're threatened to be done away with, the howls and screams come out in force.

Sports, or the cost of programs/equipment related to them, and it's for a very tiny percentage of the enrollment that uses/participtes in them.

Salaries and benefits are 85-90% of the budget. This goes for either public or private schools. It doesn't matter because school is a people-centered business. Until we get computers to teach students to the same level as humans, it will be this way.

I can tell you our school district is extremely well run. I've been in business for almost 25+ years, and have worked at Fortune 1000 companies. While your statement may ring true at some districts, there are districts that are well run. Which goes back to my original statement...school boards. Good school boards make teaching and programs a priority, and cut fat in areas away from the classroom. You name a subject that you think affects the quality of education and I can link this to a good or bad school board.

The problem is partly underfunded schools, or rather adequate funding. When you are eliminating programs left and right, this will have an impact on the quality of education kids receive.

bob2356 says

futuresmc says

Also, I didn't say you take the power from local school boards, only collect taxes and distribute the money at the state level instead of the local.

That has to be the most naive thing I've ever read. The money is the power. Local school boards would fight any state control of funding tooth and nail. Have you ever had any contact with a local school board, it's very enlightning to say the least.

Federalism empowers states over local municipalities just as it gives power to the federal government to impose its will on the states. If we passed a federal law that made school funding a state issue, the boards could scream all they wanted. The same goes for state legislatures taking over these school boards by themselves. Many states have done this on other issues. I don't see why funding should be different.

School boards have little power outside their local communities and states could easily crush them, especially if they had public support. Teacher's unions would need to be won over as they could help counterbalance the board's influence over the local community in many districts. It could be done. It's just a matter of gaining momentum and working top down.

futuresmc says

School boards have little power outside their local communities and states could easily crush them, especially if they had public support. Teacher's unions would need to be won over as they could help counterbalance the board's influence over the local community in many districts. It could be done. It's just a matter of gaining momentum and working top down.

Do you actually believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny also? World peace could also be done, it's just a matter of gaining momentum and working from the top down. It's clear you've never seen local politics in action.

futuresmc says

I don't see why funding should be different.

Because school funding affects absolutely everyone. Think realistically for a minute. Who would get funding reduced? The upper third of school districts. Who would get funding increased. The lower third. Who do you think puts state politicians in power and keeps them there? Yep, the people living in the upper third districts. Populist issues only get tackled with the consent of the people who pull the politicians strings.

upisdown says

While that's true, look at the biggest bugdetary items(overhead) and how they aren't even related to teaching, and yet if they're threatened to be done away with, the howls and screams come out in force.

Overhead ? Electricity, water, heat comes from County/City and they are not charged the same rates as any other homeowner/commercial owner. No one would expect a fire house to foot the bill of water used either.

Overhead is charged at a very low rate...