patrick.net

drew_eckhardt says

The big tech companies have been paying new graduates about $100K for at least a couple years which translates into a $28,000 per year housing budget

If you pay $28000 out of a $100K salary for housing, you are essentially working to fatten your landlord and should move out at the earliest.

Heraclitusstudent says

mdiablo says

Who is forcing you to work there? Wasn't that a choice you made? I say stick it to those damn landed gentry and their rent seeking by moving to Kansas. That would show them.

That's exactly the point. We all have a choice to pay or not.

Ask a $500 dollar/month raise to your employer and if not, then tell him you'll work remotely from Kansas. Or just quit and move there.

All well and good provided you can FIND the same opportunity in Kansas. Typically you cannot!

If you don't include airfare, it's actually cheaper to visit California than it is to live there.

freak80 says

If you don't include airfare, it's actually cheaper to visit California than it is to live there.

Huh?

Living anywhere is more expensive than visiting, right? It's simply a matter of duration and time. Time = money

OR are you saying it is cheaper to stay in a hotel than to rent? That very much depends on where you are staying and renting. I would say on average it is far cheaper to rent than shelter in a hotel/motel.

Rew says

That very much depends on where you are staying and renting. I would say on average it is far cheaper to rent than shelter in a hotel/motel.

Actually when I'm traveling, I frequently noticed that I pay same money for a night in Hotel as one day housing in San Jose cost me.

Who wants to live there?

Rew says

OR are you saying it is cheaper to stay in a hotel than to rent?

Yeah I should have clarified a bit.

When I visited CA in March of 2010, I spent an average of $70 per night in motels outside of the major metro areas (it was a "drive around and take pictures") vacation. How much is a monthly mortgage payment for a house in much of CA? It's probably north of $2100.

REpro says

Actually when I'm traveling, I frequently noticed that I pay same money for a night in Hotel as one day housing in San Jose cost me.

Plus you get your sheets washed at no extra charge.

freak80 says

Plus you get your sheets washed at no extra charge.

Plus you get to live in a motel. With cable, and probably some vending machines. Maybe even a swimming pool. There could be a Denny's attached.

Apples to apples, no way it's cheaper to stay in a motel vs rent.

freak80 says

REpro says

Actually when I'm traveling, I frequently noticed that I pay same money for a night in Hotel as one day housing in San Jose cost me.

Plus you get your sheets washed at no extra charge.

Yah,… forgot about free breakfast.

You know, one could actually make a reasonably compelling argument for living in a motel if you are single and busy. Free utilities, free internet, free cleaning, possibly free breakfast and you will routinely have nobody in the units next to you. I bet you could work out a long-term rate with an extended stay type place too.

New coming to SFBA has now a variety of housing option: Expensive or Very Very Expensive. What happen to the rest?

REpro says

New coming to SFBA has now a variety of housing option: Expensive or Very Very Expensive. What happen to the rest?

Yup. If this keeps up, it is going to get terribly interesting here. The fact is that all the highly paid tech workers and types that make sure to post pictures of their $10-fair-trade-organic-hand-crafted-local-coffee on their social media brain drain still need all of the regular hard working people that staff retail outlets, clean things, service their fancy cars and so on. Those people are being forced to pile into dangerously small spaces and move further away. Unlike the tech hipster types, they don't need to remain here for their jobs because they can pull about the same money almost anywhere in CA or the nation doing the same thing. Will they leave? Maybe, maybe not. As the disparity gets worse and worse, so too will crime.

Honestly, I think that aggression from the lower income demographic will be directed more and more towards those with the means to live comfortably here as the gap widens. The highly-paid trendy-techie contingent makes itself fairly obvious. Screened tee's with code lingo and web meme references may well become big red bullseyes to the frustrated working majority. I'm an engineer, but I don't run around "celebrating it" or striving to be "relevant" in public settings so hopefully I'll get left alone. Hell, if anyone sees me mowing my lawn or running a jackhammer on part of my driveway that I plan to remove, they'll probably figure that I'm the poor bastard that whoever owns the house hired. No "smart" person has the time to waste doing THAT stuff, right? They would be out saving the world, one frictionless web service at a time!

That isn't to say that all of the well paid young techies here are bad people or douches or anything. Plenty of them are nice, highly intelligent people that are really into what they do, to the point that they actually ARE proud to walk down the street brandishing clothes and accessories that identify them as being in the hottest professions the area has to offer. It doesn't mean that it is a good idea to make it so obvious, but that is just my opinion of it anyway.

If service people be able to earn the same money as IT engineers (how many Starbucks employee have actually college degree?) so we can get closer to Singapore or Qatar level of living, or when dollar get greatly devaluated, we can get a new form of socialism. If we unable or don’t want this to happen, then local politicians should scratch heads how to solve the growing problem. New developments try to rent 2 BR 2 bath dwells for about $3,000/mo. Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones. Over wise, service people will have to rent $3,000/mo. unit where $2,000 will come in form of Section8 subsidy founded by…US debt?

REpro says

Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones.

NIMBY's are very wealthy and powerful. They tend to think that blindly voting for Democrats (in the SFBA anyway) absolves them of doing everything they can to ensure that lower income workers have no hope of living anywhere near them. Most of the members of the baby boom generation have their entire retirement staked on the value of their house. There is NO way that they would willingly let higher density housing anywhere near their magic retirement investment since it could jeopardize their goal of unloading their house on whoever can afford it someday. On top of that, they don't want lower income people near them because "they are criminals". The SFBA gives a great deal of power to neighborhoods (with the money and free time) to determine what is and is not developed. A great deal of the development going on now is in former commercial areas or areas that already were lower income and the people there don't have the means to do anything about it.

Developers want very much to develop anywhere and everywhere that they can. The reason that they aren't isn't because of a lack of willingness on their part. It is because they simply can't due to 3rd parties with huge incentives to stop them.

Despite all of the great stuff here, the SFBA is one of the most poorly balanced places in the US. Manhattan probably has it beat still.

bmwman91 says

Despite all of the great stuff here, the SFBA is one of the most poorly balanced places in the US.

Totally agree. It’s not an easy task, require politics and smart planning, but many cities were able to handle this.

bmwman91 says

Hell, if anyone sees me mowing my lawn or running a jackhammer on part of my driveway that I plan to remove, they'll probably figure that I'm the poor bastard that whoever owns the house hired

I like to do some home improvements, where can enjoy immediately effect of my work, maybe because I like art, but mowing or jackhammer is sold immediately.

REpro says

I like to do some home improvements, where can enjoy immediately effect of my work, maybe because I like art, but mowing or jackhammer is sold immediately.

Haha well...that sort of thing brings me back to childhood! I think that I got my first taste of a jackhammer when I was 8 or so lol. As for mowing and such, I don't have anything so important to do on a Saturday that I feel like paying someone $100 a month to do 15 minutes worth of work. I'm one of those weirdos that finds physical exertion to be relaxing though. One of my favorite workouts right now is biking out to the end of a trail and hurling 50lb concrete blocks back and forth for 30 minutes and then riding home. There's something therapeutic about going out and acting like a neanderthal for a while. Or maybe I am just a weirdo.

bmwman91 says

Well comrades, it looks like the landed gentry are still ramping up their rent seeking. The dated 2BR unit in a 10-plex that I am renting now for $1845 is going to be rented to the next tenant for $2295 if they want a 10 month lease,

LOL! yes.. it funny when you drive down from Google Plex to El Camino via Rengstorff.

Not the crowd we would expect to pony up anywhere near 2000/month. They could call immigration to check for green cards.

drew_eckhardt says

The big tech companies have been paying new graduates about $100K for at least a couple years which translates into a $28,000 per year housing budget using that metric or $2,333 a month which is enough to cover your landlord's $2295/month new rent.

At best, talk to some real experts on current salaries.. Veteran recruiters, and insiders like HR and Accounting/Finance people ... the $100K is rather a over inflated number mainly generated by the overhyped media.. You will find many
who worked 15-20 years are cracking $100-120K salaries, and are middle managers. Its takes a long time to get there.

As for stock options awards and bonus.. that is almost impossible to get.. another
fabrication by the media... since such numbers are NEVER disclosed.

Thomas doesn't know how much money does get wired from India and China.

REpro says

Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones

Most cities do require new developments to have some "affordable" component, typically 20%. And there is no way to build affordable housing with a profit margin similar to luxury, otherwise developers would do it without being forced.

I remember visiting the Bay Area in the early 1970s - heaven on earth!

The roads were totally not homicidal, the prices were not at all outrageous, and the city did not reek of decay and excrement, not at all, not even one bit, no Sir!

Everything is going to hell, and nothing is as good as it was when we were young!

REpro says

freak80 says

REpro says

Actually when I'm traveling, I frequently noticed that I pay same money for a night in Hotel as one day housing in San Jose cost me.

Plus you get your sheets washed at no extra charge.

Yah,… forgot about free breakfast.

You forgot free bedbugs too. :)

mdiablo says

Most cities do require new developments to have some "affordable" component, typically 20%. And there is no way to build affordable housing with a profit margin similar to luxury, otherwise developers would do it without being forced.

Go to Phoenix, Las Vegas, Dallas, Tampa, etc. You will find new housing developed for every budget range, nobody force developers to do it. They just see what market needs, what is selling well.

retire59 says

I have lived in SFBA since 1969...always rented with 1/4 rent to income, which means small one bedroom apt, etc. but still took vacations, eat out, etc and saved 20% for retirement. We did not buy because we could not keep that ratio.

We are close to retiring and moving out of here and are buying and keeping our 1/4 mortgage including taxes and insurance of our retirement income. If we were middle aged or younger, we would work and live outside SFBA as this is no place to live anymore, IMHO....salaries do not keep up with the cost of living for most in SFBA so you become house poor with no future...there are many other places you can do much better..again IMHO...

Can you estimate how the percentage of rented housing costs compares today vs in 69 keeping all ither things equal? As in if then you could pay 1/4 of income, what do you suppose that wouldbe today for the same quality apt?

Thx.

bmwman91 says

There is no surprise on my part that the landlord is doing it. The thread isn't here to try to figure that one out. It's to give another example of the relentless rent-seeking that is going on all around the nation, and especially the SFBA. It's bad for the majority of people in the SFBA, minus the cohort of tech couples that make enough money to not care, and it will likely lead to a myriad of problems down the road when inequality is even worse and the bottom 75% gets restless and tired of being pushed further and further out.

Free markets are self regulating. As long as government doesn't start messing, it'll correct itself properly. Right now you just have a supply vs demand issue and you know that.

FortWayne says

Free markets are self regulating.

Absolutely. Free markets keep wealth flowing toward the top 1%, where it belongs!! The rest of us are just lazy slobs who DESERVE poverty.

Yawn. Last time the rents grew this fast (1998-2000) they crashed even faster (2001). Don't order that Ferrari just yet.

Straw Man says

Yawn. Last time the rents grew this fast (1998-2000) they crashed even faster (2001). Don't order that Ferrari just yet.

Ferrari? PLEASE. Lamborghini uses locally sourced, fair trade, hand-tanned leather from free range cattle. Honestly, it should be criminal to buy a car with anything that doesn't meet that ethical standard. I mean, I guess you could get cloth seats, but it should really be direct trade Bolivian cotton stuff that was hand-crafted to the tune of pan-pipes.

/Bay Area

bmwman, how many of your level headed friends are gonna populate your kids' Fortress School with their own level headed kids 20 yrs from now?

Enough for your kids to have the kind of growing up / values-forming / formative years experience you'd want them to be immersed in?

Go childless or leave The Fortress.

Or, when the time comes (and times goes quickly), be prepared to scrape them off the Caltrain tracks; or turn into adults with the kinds of values of the largest and dominant peer group.

B.A.C.A.H. says

bmwman, how many of your level headed friends are gonna populate your kids' Fortress School with their own level headed kids 20 yrs from now?

Enough for your kids to have the kind of growing up / values-forming / formative years experience you'd want them to be immersed in?

Go childless or leave The Fortress.

Or, when the time comes (and times goes quickly), be prepared to scrape them off the Caltrain tracks; or turn into adults with the kinds of values of the largest and dominant peer group.

I guess that the Fortress has grown? I am not in one of the "desirable" cities by hip and cool standards.

My plan is to send my kid(s) to parochial school anyway. Having to wear a uniform and being in an environment where teaching staff can actually enforce discipline is a big deal to me. Parental involvement is VERY important there (not all private schools are boarding houses where parents pay for someone else to do their job). I went through the parochial system and it was just fine. From what I can tell, the crazy tiger parents aren't interested in those schools because they aren't held to the same standards as public ones, and therefore don't get the same all-important numeric rating. Some of my cousins' kids go to the same school I went to, and it sounds like not too much has changed. It is CLEARLY not the most economic choice, but I have a hard time putting a price on not being able to visit extended family easily.

When the time comes to start seriously worrying about the schools, I'll reevaluate. The PNW is really nice and I like it a lot, so it is an option. I am certainly not going to be the type of parent that puts enough pressure on my kid that he/she jumps in front of a train, and they aren't going to be in a PA or Cupertino pressure cooker school either. The goal is to raise balanced, self-sufficient adults, not big neurotic children with arbitrary name-brand goals. One of my cousins works in children's mental health for the SCC school system. She purposely settled down in Cambrian because of how terribly unbalanced PA and Cupertino schools are. 6 year olds on psychotropic meds, kids killing themselves. Her take is that most South Bay schools, minus Cupertino and Fremont school districts, are still fine.

You just have to ignore the nonsensical types and focus on you and your family. The crazies are mostly confined to specific areas, and I don't live in one of those areas. Maybe it is Stockholm Syndrome, but I am not convinced that the SV is a totally lost cause.

Where is purchasing power to pay for all those stuff?
http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/08/22/economy-income/?iid=HP_LN

REpro says

Where is purchasing power to pay for all those stuff?

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/08/22/economy-income/?iid=HP_LN

According to some, incomes don't matter. Housing prices will continue to rise.

Doesn’t say is inflation adjusted and do not represent SFBA (CMSA) where inflation was one of the highest.

Technically yes, because your rich Cupertino Uncle and his soon to be rich kids are in the 20%. Heck, maybe even the 1%.

REpro says

Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones.

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

rufita11 says

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are
entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of
all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon
need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs
each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a
complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend
a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own
city?

Yeah I know a few people in San Ramon who are mad at the "affordable housing." Claim there has been a surge in robberies and are also worried about the school district rankings.

I for one don't understand the concept-I would like to retire in Malibu -but can't. Why should taxpayers subsidize folks who can't afford to live in a certain location.

rufita11 says

here are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

From the Muirlands at Windemere website:

The Housing Tax Credit Program allows for the lifestyle you deserve at a price you can afford!

The current income limits are:
1 Person - $39,300
2 People - $44,880
3 People - $50,520
4 People - $56,100
5 People - $60,600

That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.

mdiablo says

lifestyle you deserve

'Murica, FUCK YEAH

SFace says

y uncle lives in Cupertino and has four kids, and will buy four homes to each of his four kids (mountain view, Sunnyale you name it).

I'm talking of the other 80%.
And in fact I'm talking of those that didn't buy 40 years ago, and that aren't sucking the big tit in some other way.

I meaning basically these tech people who come here for regular work and that are expected to pay all they have to maintain this situation.
These people should leave.