patrick.net

Homeboy says

AverageBear says

Do those that still champion Obamacare not read the economic reports from the CBO, and other reputable sources. Tons of full-time workers being forced into part-time work. Shit, just read the latest on the UPS workers

O.K., I googled "UPS workers" and "Obamacare", and discovered that they are no longer going to insure some spouses, but ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE INSURANCE AVAILABLE FROM THEIR OWN EMPLOYER. So they aren't losing their insurance, they just aren't getting insurance from 2 different employers at the same time. So what exactly is the problem there? Of course none of the headlines are honest; the headlines just leave out the part about these spouses already having their own insurance available.

I don't see anything at all about UPS cutting anyone's hours. You'll have to explain that one.

Homeboy, my apologies. I got a couple of news stories mixed up during that day. (FT > PT of UPS workers). The fact that UPS is cancelling the option of extending UPS's heathcare plan to spouses is a direct response to Obamacare. You may not think it's a big deal. Losing an option on how you plan out your family's heathcare coverage is a big deal....

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/082113-668333-obamacare-delivers-bad-news-to-ups-workers.htm

..."Rising medical costs, "combined with the costs associated with the Affordable Care Act, have made it increasingly difficult to continue providing the same level of health care benefits to our employees at an affordable cost," UPS told its employees in a memo.
As Kaiser Health News reports, many of these spouses will end up on worse health plans.
This is just the beginning. While almost no large companies excluded spouses from coverage three years ago, 6% did last year, according to Mercer. And many others are making such coverage exorbitantly costly in the hope that spouses will drop it on their own.

The shift is already happening folks....

AverageBear says

So where are these fiscal democrats?

Obama is fiscally conservative. He put the wars on the books. That's right, wars that had hidden costs before he got there, he got these in to the budget.

He has presided over lower increases in spending than any president in recent decades.

Sure there are plenty of right wingers who are financially and logically illiterate who will try to blame deficit increases on Obama and who will spend the rest of their lives denying that the real cause of the recent record breaking deficits was reduced tax revenues due to the depression relative to federal spending levels that were established before Obama got in to office.

AverageBear says

The fact that UPS is cancelling the option of extending UPS's heathcare plan to spouses is a direct response to Obamacare.

Bullshit. Their profits were already way down.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578623522570875096.html

Obamacare is just the scapegoat, as usual.

AverageBear says

You may not think it's a big deal. Losing an option on how you plan out your family's heathcare coverage is a big deal....

Not as big a deal as millions of people not being able to get health insurance AT ALL, which was the case before Obamacare. UPS decided to cut benefits; Obamacare did not. They are full of shit to blame it on Obamacare.

The fact is 60% of the population will get Obamacare for free. Now, get back to work loser.

"fact is 60% of the population will get Obamacare for free. Now, get back to work loser."

this is true. My family is from Massachusetts. (Romenycare) My deadbeat sister, her husband and brother pay nothing for superb healthcare. Never, ever see a bill. My girlfriend, who makes 35,000 a year (also 55) pays $550 pr month and a % of her medical bills when she goes to a doctor. I suppose someone has to pay to pay for it. Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden.

GRACE123 says

Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden

How do you think it works now ?

The only differences are: now (or before Obamacare) we all pay indirectly for overpriced ER treatment that should have been addressed sooner and for far less. When more people are covered, a lot expensive outcomes can be avoided by preventative care and by catching things sooner and treating them sooner. Take diabetes for example. It's far more expensive if you defer treatment until various surgeries and major critical care problems are occurring.

Marcus regurgging the preventative care meme

Imagine that

You know what a much simpler solution to diabetes would be? Maybe if the usfedgov came out and apologized for suggesting the populace eat 12 servings of breads, grains, and cereals every day while avoiding animal fats and proteins. Seeing as how that is the root cause for diabetes, along with a littany of other expensive health problems western dieters suffer from

Just be honest and share the science behind nutrition. Inform people of all the health issues that arise from being a good little statist psycophant that does what they're told unquestioningly, and eats the anti_evolutionary diet recco'd in the food pyramid.

The majority of these so called health care issues would just go away,,,,,

New Rules!!!!!

Liberals have to stop hiding behind pseudo science to hijack the health narrative for political and monetary gain. In fact, they aren't allowed to even mention Science or talk about health, until they acknowledge that the biggest factor in determining people's overall health and how well they will age, is determined by "Genes".
Of course what you eat or don't eat does have a lot to do with it, but some folks have a good metabolism and some folks do not.

You guys should check shows by Michael Mosley on PBS.

Every single outcome with this seemingly healthy guy suggests that his genes are not cut out to be as fit or healthy as this ideal Left notion of how healthy one can be through diet and exercise.
He also shows it's not what you eat, it's how and when you eat, in relationship to how well your body can metabolize what you ate.

In order for there to be any scientific merit to trying to legislate ones health, first every type of person would have to be identified to how well one responds to exercise, long lengthy work outs, vs short sharp bursts of exorcize that he found in some cases, people benefit more from than a rigid alternate daily work out with a fitness trainer.

GRACE123 says

Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden.

Bullshit. That's the lie the republicans are telling you. If you're middle class, you get a tax credit. A family of 4 has to make $95,000 to not be eligible for the tax credit. That income would put you in the top 23% in the US. That is not middle class by any reasonable definition.

I am curious Homeboy, what is your current situation regarding Health Insurance? You have a very strong opinion, you must be experiencing something different than I am. I can only speak about how my family is being affected. We all come from different circumstances. I think we can agree that the current situation is stressful for many of us. I guess if your healthy you should be thankful.

the game being played is to make sure the payment system is gaurgenteed for those providing the goods and services. That is what is wrong with the entire welfare ideal. What needs to happen is to not promise payment by wealth-tranfer that makes consumers out of non-earners. Instead, allow the providers to "write off" goods and services that they provide to those who refuse to pay. But, also allow the providers to provide reduced value goods and services for the non-paying crowd. Then out-law med insurance in all forms and the providers will be forced to offer goods and services at a competitive price. Do not allow usery to be charged on any med debt. No more pulled-from-thin-air sky high prices based on made up bull crap. And no more gov intervention needed. Docs and Pharm have it made once the promise to pay is on full auto-pilot, removed from whatever small market forces are still in place. This is all a sham, and a shame. No place to hide from the cancer of liberalism.

GRACE123 says

Now we will be forced to buy at these rates even if we decided to take our chances without it

People who take their chances without it are part of the problem, n'est-ce pas? They're like housegamblers playing with other people's money. When it comes time to need it, it's up to the rest of us to pay for the care they'll almost certainly need.

There are accidents, undiagnosed conditions, pregnancies, and so on.

If private insurance is to exist, those non-payers need to pay. That used to be the conservative position.

In any case, I don't suspect you'd be in favor of single-payer, Socialized medicine, Medicare-for-all, or any other system, or are you?

What is the average conservative's answer for our healthcare problem nowadays?

CL that's just being dishonest. How are people that aren't paying AND not using, part of the problem?

Some of us go to great lengths to make sure we don't need to use all those frivolous services

GRACE123 says

I am curious Homeboy, what is your current situation regarding Health Insurance?

I am a member of the middle class (not a rich person who wrongly believes he is in the middle class). I currently have health insurance through my union, but they have raised the threshold of employer contributions so high that I will not qualify for it next year. Obamacare is not the cause - they began doubling and tripling the required employer contributions before Obamacare even started. A previous time that I didn't qualify, I went on COBRA, which cost nearly $500/month for a single person. Also, COBRA is not a permanent healthcare solution. The other year that I didn't qualify, I was able to find a high-deductible plan that I barely qualified for due to my "pre-existing conditions", which is basically ANYTHING. I do not want to live like that; not knowing if I will have healthcare from one year to the next, and with insurers being able to take it away from me whenever they feel like it.

So now tell us what is YOUR situation? Let me guess: You make a six-figure income, and you are mad because some people in the middle class are going to get subsidies and you aren't?

GRACE123 says

You have a very strong opinion, you must be experiencing something different than I am.

*I* have a strong opinion? Most of the people here are screaming bloody murder about how much they hate Obamacare, and they haven't even purchased insurance under Obamacare yet. I would say I am just about the only one here who DOESN'T have an opinion yet. I am perfectly happy to wait 4 more months to see if this is going to work. If the Republifucks sabotage it now, we'll never know, will we?

errc says

CL that's just being dishonest. How are people that aren't paying AND not using, part of the problem?

No, YOU are being dishonest. Tell me that every person who doesn't have insurance because they are healthy "right now", will just let themselves die if they get sick. You know perfectly well that's not the case. We don't just let people die in this country. If they don't have insurance, their care will be paid for one way or the other. And guess who gets to pay for it...

CL says

If private insurance is to exist, those non-payers need to pay. That used to be the conservative position.

Exactly. The only reason it's not the "conservative position" now is because Obama supported it, and the right occupied the opposite pole out of blind hatred.

Homeboy,
I understand your frustration. I said at the beginning of this thread that My husband and I together make $ 75,000 a year and buy our insurance independently. (Blue Shield of Ca) We are now paying $772 a month with a $10,000 deductible. He is 61 and I am 55. We have watched are premiums rise dramatically, just like you. We feel very fortunate that we do not have any pre existing condition, and at least can get insurance, however, it is becoming unaffordable. I also understand that our premiums will rise in the independent market. If I go on the health Exchange for California and put in my information, the rate is around $1100.00 a month.

Homeboy says

errc says

CL that's just being dishonest. How are people that aren't paying AND not using, part of the problem?

No, YOU are being dishonest. Tell me that every person who doesn't have insurance because they are healthy "right now", will just let themselves die if they get sick. You know perfectly well that's not the case. We don't just let people die in this country. If they don't have insurance, their care will be paid for one way or the other. And guess who gets to pay for it...

Either you are being intentionally dishonest, or you don't have a good grasp of the english language

Your position is that people that use health care services, and don't have insurance, and no other means to pay, are driving up costs for those of you that use health insurance and healthcare services

Healthy people that don't have insurance and don't use healthcare services, can't possibly be driving up costs.

errc says

Either [homeboy is] being intentionally dishonest, or [doesn't] have a good grasp of the english language

You put that very politely, but I can resolve the ambiguity for you: homefool is being intentionally dishonest. He and I have already discussed the 2% cost shifting under EMTALA that he uses as a pretext for massively higher cost shifting under Obamacare. He knows the numbers, he merely objects to the fact that EMTALA doesn't cover his toxic placebos (SSRIs) but does cover people who are hit by a truck. Somehow, he blames those people for their actual injuries, and demands they must pay to subsidize the pills he can't afford to treat his Prozac deficiency.

The simple answer to EMTALA cost shifting is math. The reported $43 billion that Obamacare supporters quote is 2% of total medical spending. Even if you eliminated it entirely, even if you shot dead every emergency patient who couldn't pay, or hit them with a hammer to save the cost of bullets, the most you could possibly save is 2%. And, EMTALA is itself optional: it applies only to hospitals that choose to take Medicare, but they make so much $$$ off Medicare that almost all opt in. Now, with Obamacare, hospital corporations are building new facilities with no emergency departments, so they can capture the elective procedure revenue without incurring the EMTALA costs, which btw won't be eliminated by Obamacare because CBO says there will still be 30 million Americans uninsured plus 10 million illegal aliens ineligible for insurance.

And, if you think 2% cost shifting is bad, then logically you must think the astronomical cost shifting under mandatory insurance is much worse. The difference is, mandatory insurance increases revenue for key players (AHA, AMA - both PACs based in Chicago) and especially PhRMA (which agreed to spend nine figures to advertise on behalf of the legislation). Even AHIP gets a cut, though not as much as they wanted so they turned against it. If you believe cost shifting is a bad thing, then you should oppose mandatory insurance.

errc says

Healthy people that don't have insurance and don't use healthcare services, can't possibly be driving up costs.

Until they get sick.

finehoe says

errc says

Healthy people that don't have insurance and don't use healthcare services, can't possibly be driving up costs.

Until they get sick.

Care to explain?

Or just gonna keep regurgitating the corporate propogated memes?

GRACE123 says

We are now paying $772 a month with a $10,000 deductible. He is 61 and I am 55. We have watched are premiums rise dramatically, just like you. We feel very fortunate that we do not have any pre existing condition, and at least can get insurance, however, it is becoming unaffordable. I also understand that our premiums will rise in the independent market. If I go on the health Exchange for California and put in my information, the rate is around $1100.00 a month.

But that's the Silver plan. It only has a $2000 deductible. So for that $387 more per month, you are saving $8000 per year in out-of-pocket expenses. Covered California is by far the better deal of the two. And if you really enjoy having a high deductible that much, you can still get the Bronze plan, which will be cheaper and have a higher deductible.

I honestly don't understand what your complaint is.

errc says

Either you are being intentionally dishonest, or you don't have a good grasp of the english language

Ooh, false dilemna. O.K., I want to play too:

Either you are a huge asshole, or you are retarded.

errc says

Your position is that people that use health care services, and don't have insurance, and no other means to pay, are driving up costs for those of you that use health insurance and healthcare services

Please don't tell me what my "position" is. I will state my own position, thank you.

errc says

Healthy people that don't have insurance and don't use healthcare services, can't possibly be driving up costs.

People who are healthy at one particular moment may not ALWAYS be healthy. What is the problem you are having? Do you want me to say it s-l-o-w-e-r?

errc says

finehoe says

errc says

Healthy people that don't have insurance and don't use healthcare services, can't possibly be driving up costs.

Until they get sick.

Care to explain?

Why? You are the only one here who doesn't understand.

GRACE123 says

I also understand that our premiums will rise in the independent market. If I go on the health Exchange for California and put in my information, the rate is around $1100.00 a month.

Not sure if this would work for you, but it might be worth checking out: You can deduct your health insurance expenses on your taxes. Your health insurance would cost about $13,908 a year. If you make $75K, that deduction brings your adjusted gross income down to $61,092, in which case you would get a $676 subsidy per month, bringing your health insurance cost down to $484 per month. The costs are just estimates at this point, so it would depend how things play out. But maybe worth asking your tax guy about. Just a thought.

Thank you Homeboy, that would be manageable!

All of these comments are proof that Obamacare is a classic tail wagging the dog scenario. The tail is the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and american hospital association. The dog is Mr Obama who never read the bill written by the aforementioned that he signed into law.

Homeboy says

You can deduct your health insurance expenses on your taxes

complete bullshit. You can not deduct premiums or deductables. If you plan to carry Lord Barry's water, you should do better at spreading bullshit.

Bap33 says

complete bullshit. You can not deduct premiums or deductables. If you plan to carry Lord Barry's water, you should do better at spreading bullshit.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

I only posted that because I thought it might help someone. I don't know if it will work, but I thought it might be worth looking into. Absolutely no reason for you to be an asshole about it, but you were anyway. Congratulations.

where in her post did you find "self employed". I missed it.
if she said in her post that she and he husband are self employed, and file jointly, then she can write off the insurance like you said. Please direct me to the post that she put up that says that. I cant find it.
If you cant show it, then you created her out of thin air.
If you can show it, then I am wrong and an asshole poopoo head.
Thanks.

Bap33 says

complete bullshit. You can not deduct premiums or deductables

That is what you wrote, and it is wrong.

Again, don't know if this would work for them. I have used that deduction myself, but I don't know if they can, which is why I said it MIGHT be worth asking their tax guy about. Just trying to help. If it doesn't work, no harm no foul.

You, on the other hand, are just being a prick. At this point, I honestly think you have some sort of emotional problem. Seriously.

lmao .. you pulled it from your ass. ha ha

and you prolly made up that poster so you could act out some fantasy. What a freak you are. wow.

NEXT

Homeboy says

Again, don't know if this would work for them. I have used that deduction
myself, but I don't know if they can, which is why I said it MIGHT be worth
asking their tax guy about. Just trying to help. If it doesn't work, no harm no
foul.

um, no, dipshit, you were defending nobamaycare with bullshit.

You should get counseling.

Homeboy says

Not as big a deal as millions of people not being able to get health insurance AT ALL, which was the case before Obamacare

So, safe to say you are talking about the health care of illegal aliens? Because that's what Obamacare includes. Shifting 716 Billion dollars from Medicare (ie, stealing this from older American retired citizens who worked/lived here there entire lives, and had this earned money taken away by obama w/ the flick of his pen), and using it to cover medical costs of illegal aliens.

Tell me Homeboy (because no liberal will answer this question): Why has Obama granted thousands of waivers for this awesome law call Obamacare (or ACA)?? Hmmm? If it's so great and fair and will save billions of dollars, why is it projected to cost so much. So much, that companies big and small are holding off on expanding, and hiring new/more employees?

Why do even waivers exist at all?

marcus says

AverageBear says

So where are these fiscal democrats?

Obama is fiscally conservative.

HAHAHAHAAA!!! That's a good one. Has he ever proposed cutting taxes? Ever? Begging/threatening/pleading to increase the budget deficit? Not working w/ the House to reign in spending? yeah, that's a fiscal conservative... PFFT.

they follow Sol's advice .... tell the biggest lie you can think of over and over and call anyone that opposes you "crazy". Seems to be working for them.

AverageBear says

that's a good one. Has he ever proposed cutting taxes? Ever?

You really need to cut back on the right wing propaganda.

Obama claims to have cut taxes 18 times for small businesses. Maybe that's an exaggeration, I don't know. But if you don't know he's clearly cut taxes many times, you have to be deep deep deep in your propaganda bubble.

QUICK SWITCH TO FOX NEWS BEFORE ANY OF THIS SINKS IN !!!

Yes, Obama did fight for the Bush tax cuts to expire 2 years later than originally promised.

Btw, the Bush tax cuts were basicvally a way of giving the several years of peak social security surplus money to the rich in the form of tax cuts. OF course now right wing dim bulbs want to claim that we can't afford those entitlements (when the truth is that we couldn't afford the Bush tax cuts or the off books wars that followed).

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/sep/07/barack-obama/barack-obama-said-hes-cut-taxes-middle-class-famil/

http://www.ctj.org/obamastaxcuts.php

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/05/a-bogus-tax-attack-against-obama/