patrick.net

Efficient Life Church says

The owner of the stent manufacturer that paralysed my mother was listed in Forbes as having a net worth of 5 BILLION dollars. You think you're safe when that kind of money is up for grabs?

Who is that, I'd like to read about this.

bob2356 says

Who is that, I'd like to read about this.

YesYNot says

Everything in our society tells us the the medical profession is the best in the world & that is our best hope for whatever ails us. It also gives some false hope that when we are ill, it will provide the best fix.

Thank you. It kills me the arsehole presumptions some make about our or my self-responsibility regarding my father. We held plenty of self-responsibility, and we did our research. We have money and highly regarded insurance. We went through numerous advisors, doctors, consultations, surgeons, hospitals and treatment centres ...and frankly it was in our opinion all the same circle of bullshite the more involved the worse it got and THAT is the reality of our situation.

I agree, it is all about false hope and a fix at a price in my opinion. It is SO horrific that (get this one) after being under a very expensive highly regarded team his so-called Five Star top-rated team of doctors, (see yes we DID our homework for the best around money could buy,) they did not even write my family a condolence letter upon his death. We NEVER heard from them again after one of their big sources of income died.

Efficient Life Church says

dodgerfanjohn says

You know, it's cool that you all know people who have spontaneously entered remission. It happens several thousand times a year in the US.

However, please post the medical studies or results of clinical trials demonstrating the effectiveness of these treatments.

Oh wait, you can't? Why not? I can post studies that demonstrate the effectiveness of 5-FU vs Xeloda, of adding Oxiliplatin into treatment, and the raw numbers of surgery alone vs surgery + chemo.

Oh yeah, also please disclose either any profit you will make off these systems and/or you history of mental illness.

K? Tks.

Please post the medical studies that prove chemo cures cancer.

For starters, your premise.."that proves chemo cures cancer" is an entirely false premise. Chemo doesn't necessarily cure cancer. It does slow/stunt tumor growth and it does decrease chance of recurrence in some/most patients. If you believe the assertion is that chemo "cures" cancer, you need to re-adjust your thinking because no one believes that. Easiest way to argue against something is to create a strawman...an argument that no one actually made...and argue against that.

But heres the proof...at least some of it. TBH I'm too lazy to click on all the studies I have bookmarked.

http://www.asco.org/ASCOv2/Meetings/Abstracts?&vmview=abst_detail_view&confID=103&abstractID=70862

Or in easier to read language:

http://fightcolorectalcancer.org/research_news/2011/02/chemo_delay_after_surgery_reduces_survival_rates

Again, I'll assert that the alternative treatment people, much as the earlier video stated, are either lying or are mentally/emotionally unstable.

dodgerfanjohn says

Chemo doesn't necessarily cure cancer. It does slow/stunt tumor growth and it does decrease chance of recurrence in some/most patients.

Here it is phrases like these "doesn't necessarily" or in "some/most" and every other half-backed bullshite thrown at the pubilc including but not limited to: almost, could, should, maybe, possibly, potentially, etc., etc. etc.

Yes, slows or stunts cancer growth sure why not ....because chemo is killing ALL the cells in its path!

coriacci1 says

...the chemo, but the chemo would probably kill him in the interim with side effects. That was 25 months ago!

I just posted without reading the above. I REST MY CASE.

Efficient Life Church says

Discussions: 0

You didn't post the information. Who is the billionare owner of this medical supply company that killed your mother. I'm really curious now.

dodgerfanjohn says

>http://fightcolorectalcancer.org/research_news/2011/02/chemo_delay_after_surgery_reduces_survival_rates

But heres the proof...at least some of it. TBH I'm too lazy to click on all the studies I have bookmarked.

Almost every doctor speaking at a symposium is a paid consultant for a drug company. Symposiums are the worst example you can give. They are sponsored by drug companies and are designed to market their products to doctors. The doctors are often given lavish vacations and perks to attend these sales conventions. They even conduct them on cruise ships and give them and a guest a free cruise.

It's the speakers job to look at a study and accentuate the positive and reinterpret the negative to make it sound positive. The results of a true high powered randomized study will never be shown at a symposium. Just innocuous abstracts.

Always look for the disclosures. They're required by law. Why do you think that is? It's to warn doctors of conflict of interest. But do they heed the warnings? Not if it's not in their financial best interest.

Just take a look at the absract disclosures for this symposium!

http://www.asco.org/ASCOv2/Department%20Content/IMedia/Abstracts/Disclosures%20and%20Erratas/2011/GI/GI11_Abstract%20Disclosure.pdf

If you want to check out who's pocket your doctor is in just type their name in front of this search string and Google it. You may be surprised how they make extra money. Some even get a bonus for using a particular medical device or drug. At least you'll know why they may be recommending the treatment they are.

"consultant for" OR "paid consultant" OR "receives royalties" OR "research grant" OR "received grant/research" OR "received honoraria" OR "speakers bureau for"

There is some evidence that believing something works helps the outcome. But the truth is with a few exceptions chemotherapy is a racket.

At this point, I'm going with mentally/emotionally unstable.

Reader says

I agree, it is all about false hope and a fix at a price in my opinion. It is SO horrific that (get this one) after being under a very expensive highly regarded team his so-called Five Star top-rated team of doctors, (see yes we DID our homework for the best around money could buy,) they did not even write my family a condolence letter upon his death. We NEVER heard from them again after one of their big sources of income died.

Ok this has gone into the realm of hard to believe.

One patient of a team (practice??) of 5 star (I've never seen a rating system for doctors, please share where you can look this up) rated doctors (no names I notice, one would think you would want to share with people who to avoid) is far from "a big source of income" for a practice. A big practice of doctors has hundreds of active patients. I used to work for a medical billing company and was in and out of the offices all the time. I can tell you for a fact that the doctors don't have a clue what any one patient is billed. It's unlikely the office billing staff does without looking it up.

Even if they were to find out that a former patient in a hospice has died almost no doctors office sends out letters of condolence. They should, but it's industry practice that they don't. If your 5 star rated team doesn't do it then they don't do it, it's not a personal indictment against you. If they sent out letters of condolence to everyone but you then I could see your point.

Yes I've dealt with terminal family members right through hospice and death so don't say I don't understand. It sounds like you need to get some help to stop placing blame for the natural process of dying and get on with your life. I find it totally impossible to believe that the large number of people you describe involved in the years of medical care you describe could be all totally incompetent and everything they did made the situation worse.

bob2356 says

I find it totally impossible to believe that the large number of people you describe involved in the years of medical care you describe could be all totally incompetent and everything they did made the situation worse.

I believe it. That was my experience too. It's not the individual that's incompetent it's the way the system is set up. Of course it's not in a drug company's best interest to kill their cash cow. But the drug and device companies are sales driven. The sales department is going to resist recommending the use of their drug be withdrawn or not used at all regardless of the damage being done. So there becomes a balance between sales figures and the legal liabilities. The huge profits take care of most of the legal hurdles leaving the sales department almost free reign.

We're supposed to be under a system of, "evidence based medicine" but the sales departments have learned that if you pay a consultant well enough they will tell their colleagues whatever "evidence" you feed to them. And the doctor will believe their collegue. Especially if he's for example head of the Harvard Medical School.

Check out this article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/business/03medschool.html?pagewanted=all

BOSTON — In a first-year pharmacology class at Harvard Medical School, Matt Zerden grew wary as the professor promoted the benefits of cholesterol drugs and seemed to belittle a student who asked about side effects.

Mr. Zerden later discovered something by searching online that he began sharing with his classmates. The professor was not only a full-time member of the Harvard Medical faculty, but a paid consultant to 10 drug companies, including five makers of cholesterol treatments.

coriacci1 says

My hubby was advised to treat another very serious autoimmune condition before treating his lung tumor. After 4 months, his tumor had grown 200%,

Western medicine's treatement for autoimmune conditions ALWAYS involves immune-suppressing medications. The only way the body can fight cancer is with its immune system. Using immune-suppressing drugs leaves you succeptible to life-threatening infections and yes, cancer.

coriacci1 says

Here is a link to a great traditional chinese medicine site:

http://alternativehealing.org/chinese_herbs_dictionary.htm

Also, a landmark book "Prevention and Treatment of Carcinoma in Traditional Chinese Medicine" by DR Jia Kun

I buy most of the Chinese herbs in bulk from Dr Kang's Asia naturals at 7th and townsend in sf. others can be had on line at a much greater price.

TCM is generally bunk, some people know their stuff like some jungle shamans but thats where it's usefulness ends. It is no more effective than holistic or chiropractors at treating anything serious, aka not at all as placebos don't work for the terminal.

I've done a bit of research into chemotherapy and effectiveness of cancer treatments. Two points I'd like to add to the discussion, since I didn't see them mentioned.
1) antigen-based therapies and monoclonal antibodies.
These are the new way of treating cancer that uses the patients own immune system to eliminate the cancer. They've had a few trials and have worked their way into the current medical usage, after a decade or so of suppression by pharma companies selling poisons under the label of "chemotherapy."
Unlike said poisons, they aren't innately harmful to the patient, and IMHO are the best first step that "does no harm." These alone may not effect an entire cure, but will buy time without jeopardizing the Health of the patient.

2)mind-body therapies: this one is more "out there" but has massive potential for not only explaining cancer's occurrence but giving the patient a means to cure it. It was noted in a study a few years back that of those patients who experienced "miraculous cancer cures," coming back from stage three or four cancer and going into long term remission, there was an unexpected commonality: they nearly all had made significant life changes, usually with a spiritual component. Whether it was daily prayer or yoga and meditation, the survivors had turned their focus toward inner peace.
The theory goes that repressed anger and resentment in ones life can cause the subconscious (which has its fingers on the controls of the body) to sacrifice health for a distraction from a perceived threat that is even greater to the conscious mind. You would never consciously choose to give yourself a backache, an ulcer, or migraine headaches, but your heart (colloquial word for subconscious) may choose that option. If the anger goes on long enough without relief or being addressed, more serious symptoms may be produced such as fibromyalgia or cancer.
The idea is that the health of our bodies is a reflection of our psychological health. As a mechanism for explaining the unexplainable ailments of our hectic new millennium, it's one that deserves contemplation.
Interestingly, this also correlates with a study of the effectiveness of prayer for cancer patients. People praying FOR the patient had no effect. But the patient praying had a measurable effect.

Oh brother.....

A huge issue with medicine is that people believe in cause & effect.

If a person has cancer, receives chemo, then dies - people tend to blame the chemo. Chemo/radiation often work. They also often don't.

There is no vast conspiracy - yes, research equals dollars. But the same research also brings results, and sometimes cures.

bob2356 says

Efficient Life Church says

Discussions: 0

You didn't post the information. Who is the billionare owner of this medical supply company that killed your mother. I'm really curious now.

Still waiting for the name of the company and company owner who killed your mother. With such a huge lawsuit there must be a lot of information about this to look at. You do have a name don't you?

bob2356 says

5 star (I've never seen a rating system for doctors, please share where you can look this up) rated

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about or what you are trying to accomplish but I am ending this here. Based on given general practice standards their records etc., etc. etc. we made the most informed decision we could and based on that I could say they were IOHO considered "SO-CALLLED" "FIVE STAR" not meaning a literal rated fucking chart like a restaurant chart.

I am not about to be baited on a personal issue either, for Christ's sake, you don't know the details of our situation and I am not about to provide them in a public forum and for sake of keeping it general I am certainly not about to mention names. You have attacked me personally both my situation and how it was handled by our family (for the general little I have provided) and you know nothing about it in detail. You appear to want to justify yourself and the medical system and that is your right but not at my expense, while you sadly try to attempt to bait me on a family matter I am simply not falling for it.

My family and I suffered enough emotionally and financially and lost a family member so just respect that and please just let it go. I am here to discuss real estate not medical issues anyway and this is very personal to OUR situation. I am sure others have had similar situations and experiences while others entirely different experiences and if they were disappointed or pleased either way sobeit it is all relevant to individual cases I only speak of and from our personal experience over a very long time.

I am sure we will hear from you again because your type have to have the last word. I will not be responding but I'll give you my version of realm of "hard to believe" that is that anyone would be so arrogant and presumptuous to jump all over someone's personal situation and make such ignorant off the cuff statements without full knowledge of the situation.

bob2356 says

You do have a name don't you?

It's still under appeal. What's your email address?

362436ia says

bob2356 says

You do have a name don't you?

It's still under appeal. What's your email address?

Court records are public so you can give out the names in a public forum. Besides you said the company was paying. You don't pay under appeal. Why is your screen name changing?

Reader says

I am here to discuss real estate not medical issues anyway and this is very personal to OUR situation.

Whoa jack. You posted your situation and your medical issues in detail on a public forum, not me. If you want to do that as a justification for saying the entire medical system of the US exists as a money extraction machine, which is exactly what you did then don't bitch if anyone challenges that assertion.

The previous post wasn't terribly clear. I'm not challenging your experience. I'm challenging your assertions, conclusions, and perceptions based on your experience. You can't have it both ways. If you want to throw out broad based indictments of the system then you can;t say your conclusions are personal and private no one can discuss them. Your experience is personal and private (and was not at all necessary to be included in the first place) not what you have concluded about it.

I have never attacked you or your family personally. I'm not baiting anyone, you are the one throwing out all the bold rhetoric not me.

Where am I going with this? In my opinion the US system has pretty good medical care, with a terrible financial model and access. If you want to say that US medicine only exists as a "money milking machine" and that everything done only makes things worse then I disagree strongly.

The rest of the first world and quite a lot of the non first world uses a public health system. There is no incentive to "milk" and a strong incentive to cut costs. Doctors are paid straight salary, administrators are on a strict budget. Yet they use the same procedures, medicine, equipment, etc. ,etc.,etc. as the US and get pretty close to the same results, So why would medicine be practiced everywhere else in the same way as the US if your assertion that US medicine is only a "money machine" is correct? Doesn't make much sense.

Don't bother to hand me the crap about public systems rationing either. I've lived in France, Canada, Australia, and NZ. Medicine is practiced pretty much the same all over. You might have to wait for minor procedures in some of the public systems, but you will get them. Docs travel from country to country with no problem at all other than knowing the language. I've been doing some part time medical recruitment for NZ and Oz the last couple years. I spend a lot of time talking to docs around the world, so I know this to be a fact.

Unfortunately people look for absolute reasons why a relative died and/or has an adverse reaction to a medication.

Shit happens, people die. I can't even begin to count the number of patients who are receiving hospice care and the family isn't ready to accept it. They blame the medications, they blame the lack of aggressive treatment, they blame the doctor - hell, they've even blamed the family dog thinking that he must have infected the patient somehow.

People change hospice providers, believing that the previous one was horrible (when the care was exactly the same). They change doctors, they insist upon different medications that they read about on the interwebs.

People die. Sometimes it's the fault of the medical provider, but often it's because the patient was terminal and no amount of treatment will change that.

bob2356 says

If you want to say that US medicine only exists as a "money milking machine"

Without hesitation, I would say this about pharmaceutical companies.

coriacci1 says

What a beautiful world it would be if we could base our system on such a cost effective alternative.

Your story is very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. I would love it if you could point to a website or web journal where one might read more extensively about your experiences with alternative/Eastern meds.

heathcare for profit....... an idea whose time has gone.

coriacci1 says

heathcare for profit....... an idea whose time has gone.

ironic coming from the snake oil peddler of the thread.

Alright guys. This thread has been derailed....

Can anyone can give credibility/proof to other therapies besides chemo/radiation?

Some of the documentaries seem to make sense, but I know that all documentaries are usually heavily slanted.

It makes sense to me that chemo/radiation would be a poor choice, simply because it weakens the immune system, instead of builds it. Surgery (if possible), seems like a good bet. Although, if I ever get prostate cancer, I may just have to live with the cancer. From what I understand, the majority of men who undergo prostate surgery/removal, pretty much live without sex for the rest of their lives.. That really seems like no way to live.. lol

joshuatrio says

Although, if I ever get prostate cancer, I may just have to live with the cancer. From what I understand, the majority of men who undergo prostate surgery/removal, pretty much live without sex for the rest of their lives.. That really seems like no way to live.. lol

Many prostate cancers are slow growing and victims survive for years without treatment. I do agree, living without sex would be awful. However, it is still living... as opposed to not living.

I've seen many people try all sorts of alternative therapies that didn't work in the long run. Since I work with people who are dying, I don't have any proof that any of these therapies work. The problem with my experience is that I don't meet the survivors, I only see the failures.

elliemae says

I've seen many people try all sorts of alternative therapies that didn't work in the long run.

My immediate co-worker was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Think I mentioned this above.

He dumped his doc and went on some crazy fast/super nutritious diet. The guy is alive and well today while his cancer has gone into remission.

He is the only guy I know to have gone an alternate route. Everyone else usually goes with the knife.

(Reuters) - Drug regulators gave the nod to a Teva Pharmaceutical Industries drug that boosts the production of infection-fighting white blood cells in certain cancer patients receiving chemotherapy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/29/us-teva-idUSBRE87S1CV20120829

I'll just skip the chemo thank you...

JodyChunder says

bob2356 says

If you want to say that US medicine only exists as a "money milking machine"

Without hesitation, I would say this about pharmaceutical companies.

And I would agree with you without hesitation. Very few new meds have come on the market. Most are just tweaks to existing meds to extend the patent.

ELC says

(Reuters) - Drug regulators gave the nod to a Teva Pharmaceutical Industries drug that boosts the production of infection-fighting white blood cells in certain cancer patients receiving chemotherapy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/29/us-teva-idUSBRE87S1CV20120829

I'll just skip the chemo thank you...

Nice!

Fifty percent of all doctors graduated in the lower half of their class, so they didn’t know much to begin with. The other half never bother to update their antiquated data base. They’re too busy making money.

The only really healthy people are the ones who have never gone for a medical exam; if they had done so, the doctor would have surely found something ‘wrong’ with them.

joshuatrio says

Alright guys. This thread has been derailed....

Can anyone can give credibility/proof to other therapies besides chemo/radiation?

I asked a question earlier that nobody addressed. What does a healthy diet look like? Why is that such a hard question? Is there anything more important to a human being then how to properly fuel his machine? If you went to your mechanic with constant issues, he'd tell you first things first, you have to put diesel fuel in your diesel motor, not 87 unleaded with 15% ethanol!

Maybe proper nutrition can't help a patient once they've developed cancer, but as everyone in the thread seems to agree, once someone has cancer, there's not much of anything that can be done to help them.

So with any problem, in order to 'solve' it, we must strip it of it's complexities and start at the beginning. After all, dietary inputs are the one thing that we do have more or less complete control over,,,,,

so what are we supposed to be eating to properly fuel our bodies? What should we avoid eating, to give us our best chance at not getting cancer?

Growing up, i was educated by my public school, to eat a recommended diet of

6-11 servings breads/grains/cereal/rice/pasta
3-5 servings vegetables
2-4 servings of fruits
2-3 servings of dairy
2-3 servings of meat/poultry/fish/dry beans/eggs/nuts
and to use fats and oils sparingly

In recent years, they have updated the info and now recommend a similar diet, with emphasis on exercise and a lower recommendation of the grains/cereals group, with emphasis that the majority should come from whole grains.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110614115037.htm

A 1995 Case Western Reserve University case report on two children with brain cancer showed that 8 weeks of a high-fat, low-carb ketogenic diet resulted in 22 percent less tumor metabolism, which means that the tumor had stopped growing.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/colon-cancer-refined-carbohydrates-and-excess-fats-may-drive-the-insulin-gene-in-colon-cells-to-promote-cancer.html

is there a snakier oil than chemo for non small cell lung cancer?

coriacci1 says

is there a snakier oil than chemo for non small cell lung cancer?

None comes with a more elborate dog and pony show! ;)

errc says

Maybe proper nutrition can't help a patient once they've developed cancer, but as everyone in the thread seems to agree, once someone has cancer, there's not much of anything that can be done to help them.

You need to go beyond proper nutrition. A raw food diet can reverse cancer. This place is expensive but they're the real deal. See http://www.hippocratesinst.org/ Here's some articles from their magazine with people's testimonials http://www.hippocratesinst.org/archives/117-recovery

ELC says

A raw food diet can reverse cancer.

If you feel that way, please buy your supplies from my cousin Matt:

http://www.therawfoodworld.com/