patrick.net

That doesn't make any sense, why would someone insulate the return pipes? There should be some record of the furnace installation at the building department that would shed some light on this. It obviously wasn't originally installed in a pre 1900 house, forced hot air really didn't exist until after ww2.

You can send away a small sample to a lab, if your paranoid you can have a friend pay for the testing to avoid a paper trail.

Old linoleum and tile can also have asbestos in them so keep an eye out.

If I was in your shoes I would get an asbestos removal estimate, use it to beat the seller up on price, then remove the asbestos myself.

It's not rocket science, a proper resperator, a tyvek bunny suit, duct tape, a spray bottle, some plastic tarp, a bunch of plastic bags and you're ready to get to work.

bob2356 says

That doesn't make any sense, why would someone insulate the return pipes?

My guess is that the return pipes were originally feed pipes for a gravity feed system that have been re-purposed when it was updated to a forced air...

I don't hold out a lot of hope finding records on a very old furnace system, if records were even kept of such a thing.

Of course it's asbestos, what else did you think it was? It was still on the hardware store shelves until the 70's. I see guys remove it all the time. My college room mate worked for an a abatement company so I learned allot about it. The best thing is to just leave it alone, touching it will contaminate your whole house. IF you do remove it yourself put fans in the window so suck all the fibers out, they are very small. Put outside right away or immediately into plastic bags, also sealed immediately. Lol, don't tell anyone what you are doing. It's no big thing, every house I ever lived in had asbestos somewhere, every school I attended, etc. One in ten thousand people will get cancer or die from it no matter how you look at it.

everything says

Of course it's asbestos, what else did you think it was?

I've seen it, and I strongly suspect it is asbestos, but can't be sure without a definitive test. You haven't seen it and you are confident in saying that it is definitely asbestos.

Also, did you even read my post?

Another option: Walk away.

swebb says

My guess is that the return pipes were originally feed pipes for a gravity feed system that have been re-purposed when it was updated to a forced air...

I don't hold out a lot of hope finding records on a very old furnace system, if records were even kept of such a thing.

Gravity feed for what? Still doesn't make much sense. Couldn't hurt to ask at the building department, depending on the town they have very extensive records dating back a long, long way.

Where are you getting $400-600 for testing from. http://www.asbestos-test.com/stepbystep.htm mail a sample costs $30.00 and it's confidential.

How much return duct is there? Shouldn't be all that much in retrofitted old house. What renovations would possibly disturb the ducting?

Almost 100% chance its asbestos or has asbestos in it. I would have it removed professionally or leave it alone. The type used in duct or pipe insulation is friable and is dangerous when disturbed. Floor tile typically, 9"x9" in size is not friable and much safer to deal with without negative air and special training. Yes you would legally have to disclose it if you tested positive at least in the States I know of.

bob2356 says

Gravity feed for what? Still doesn't make much sense.

Gravity feed systems are old central heaters that don't have fans to circulate the air, but instead rely on convection. Since the movement of air is much slower than with a blower, they used larger ducting, as I understand it. To my eyes it looks like they re-purposed a few of the old ducts for the air return. In any case it doesn't really matter if it makes sense....there are two large return pipes going to the air handler and both are wrapped in white paper...

bob2356 says

Where are you getting $400-600 for testing from. http://www.asbestos-test.com/stepbystep.htm mail a sample costs $30.00 and it's confidential.

Yes, there are local labs that will do the same for about that cost. The $expensive figure above is for a full inspection of the house for asbestos, I think. I'm primarily concerned about the ducting (that's what I know about), but there is possibly some in other places...attic insulation, etc.

bob2356 says

How much return duct is there? Shouldn't be all that much in retrofitted old house. What renovations would possibly disturb the ducting?

One long run, maybe 40 feet? One shorter run, maybe 15 feet or so. As for renovations that would disturb the ducting:

1. Dig out the basement. Right now it's only a partial basement with crawlspace. We may want to dig out the basement in the future which would necessitate re-working of the ducts.
2. Installing radon mitigation system. The basement tested for (slightly) elevated radon levels...mitigation involves installing a plastic barrier over the dirt crawlspace and venting to the outside. This would likely disturb the ducting.
3. Installing central air. Not sure if this would affect the current ducting, but it could. Some HVAC shops won't touch a system with asbestos wrapped ducts.

HEY YOU says

Another option: Walk away.

Yes, this is on our list of options. One problem is that any house we buy in the area is going to be old and therefore likely to have asbestos. In fact, this one being as old as it is (early 1890s) is helpful in that respect...you get too far into the 1900s and a lot of other sources of asbestos present themselves.

Just wear a breather when you remove it and wash your close afterwards, and have good venting. No need to pay thousands for something you can safely do yourself. The same goes for lead paint. The risks are way overblown to make people think they need to pay thousands to have it professionally done.

zzyzzx says

The risks are way overblown to make people think they need to pay thousands to have it professionally done.

I know they are overblown. That's the problem. If I remove it myself, or just ignore it, it might come back to bite me when I sell. I'm not so worried about it from a safety standpoint, more of a cost standpoint.

I'm not likely to remove it myself. I'd rather have the seller pay for it and have a record of having it done professionally.

If you remove it properly, yourself, and there is no evidence if it ever being there, why do you need a record of it?

swebb says

Note this is a very old house, built before 1900. I don't believe asbestos was in wide use when the house was built.

Neither was central heat/air conditioning. If the house has duct work, it was installed sometime AFTER the house was built.

unstoppable says

It's not rocket science, a proper respirator, a tyvek bunny suit, duct tape, a spray bottle, some plastic tarp, a bunch of plastic bags and you're ready to get to work.

I agree, they make it seem like it's the most hazards job in the world to remove asbestos, but long as it's kept wet when removing it, it's not too dangerous. The spray bottle is to spray the air to wet any dust particles making them fall to the ground. While not legal to do this type of work yourself, what they don't know can't hurt you. Like Unstoppable says, put plastic traps up to seal off the area your working in, including the floor. wear a protective suit, mask, have several spray bottles, have someone constantly spraying the bottle as your removing the asbestos, put everything in plastic bags. try to do a small area as possible, so your not entering and leaving the work area for several days. When completed, spray your selves down well in an airlock, break everything down from the outside and into plastic bags they go. You'll save yourself a ton of $ doing it yourself.

It's possible your my get a little asbestos exposure during the course of your work, but doesn't kill you instantly. It's only with prolonged exposure that health concerns develop. So long as you do a good job removing it, it shouldn't be an issue in the future.

Now if the state gets involved, they will make a federal project out of it costing you thousands of dollars with hiring a licensed contractor, air testing and disposal fees.

everything says

IF you do remove it yourself put fans in the window so suck all the fibers out, they are very small.

I disagree with this, you don't want the fibers moving around. Isolate the area much as possible, remove the asbestos, soak the air and ceiling with water, everything goes into plastic bags, including the plastic tarps and your work suit when you done, only your mask, plastic gloves and goggles don't get tossed, you can hose them off outside later and replace the air filter cartridges.

swebb says

1. Dig out the basement. Right now it's only a partial basement with crawlspace. We may want to dig out the basement in the future which would necessitate re-working of the ducts.
2. Installing radon mitigation system. The basement tested for (slightly) elevated radon levels...mitigation involves installing a plastic barrier over the dirt crawlspace and venting to the outside. This would likely disturb the ducting.
3. Installing central air. Not sure if this would affect the current ducting, but it could. Some HVAC shops won't touch a system with asbestos wrapped ducts.

You're worried about 2 ducts in the basement?? That's a big so what. I thought you were talking about in the attic or framing. Don't strip it at all, just replace the ducts. Even if you had it done professionaly as asbestos abatement it wouldn't be that much. Why don't you just go get a quote instead of playing what if in your mind, no one charges for a job quote. They should be able to quote it just on the description of the space and the duct length.

Asbestos is a naturally occurring substance. You are breathing it right now. There is probably more coming in the windows and doors of the house than coming from the ducts. Unless you are a asbestos worker the risks of asbestos are so small it's not worth worrying about. Even the EPA has backed off a lot on asbestos.

bob2356 says

You're worried about 2 ducts in the basement?? That's a big so what. I thought you were talking about in the attic or framing. Don't strip it at all, just replace the ducts. Even if you had it done professionaly as asbestos abatement it wouldn't be that much. Why don't you just go get a quote instead of playing what if in your mind, no one charges for a job quote. They should be able to quote it just on the description of the space and the duct length.

I did get an inspection (samples tested of various places) and a quote for the duct work. Around $3,000 for the first quote. I haven't received the other written quote yet, but his off the cuff estimate was somewhat lower than that.

The asbestos testing results confirmed the duct insulation was asbestos (as expected), provided a negative result for the 2 layers of flooring in the kitchen, and an effectively negative result on the drywall and textured finish in the attic. The joint compound did have some asbestos, but when considered in aggregate (As the EPA and Colorado permit) the composite number was around 0.1% (less than 1% isn't considered asbestos containing for the purposes of demolition / remodeling safety)

I'm not so worried about it from a health standpoint, but from a resale and or renovation standpoint it is important to me. The duct work in the basement is likely to be disturbed by work we are planning, so it will have to be dealt with on one way or another.

I asked the sellers for a concession in the amount of the abatement estimate, and they agreed. (We didn't ask for any other concessions although there are quite a number of things we could have asked for, so the $3k abatement concession could be considered o apply to the whole house)

Note that Colorado is apparently fairly strict and "requires" an asbestos test prior to issuing a work permit -- that is a primary reason I was a stickler for the asbestos testing.