patrick.net

New Renter says

Irrelevant to the OT but sure, I'll play:

Then you should not complain, if you think those starving people are getting paid some money to survive. You are better off anyway.

Rin says

How did Singapore get into this discussion? Singapore hasn't been 3rd world since the 50s

They changed along with 3 others... Asian tiger nations...

How did Singapore Taiwan and So Korea become leaders in Tech both in R&D

and manufacturing ?

Have a read if you dare... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers

from nothing to major international player... no joke.

No problems with manufacturing or technology in the US:

http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2013/05/01/former-energy-secretary-calls-for-manufacturing-renaissance/

Plenty of American kids going into science?

http://www.ndcl.ee.psu.edu/students.asp

But no worries - we can sue our way to prosperity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100_largest_law_firms_by_revenue

Question for Patricians:

How is having by far the wealthiest Law firms in the world related to the lack of generational US kids going into manufacturing, science, technology, math?

How is technology accommodated in the US vs. Asia:

http://www.semiconductors.org/public_policy/tax/

What role did NAFTA have in this?

Entitlemented says

Plenty of American kids going into science?

http://www.ndcl.ee.psu.edu/students.asp

What are you complaining about Entitlement? The American students make up at least 25% of the Electrical Engineering students !

adarmiento says

The American students make up at least 25% of the Electrical Engineering students !

Hate to say it but this whole Americans, as EEs, was a Math Jock type of p*ssing contest, back in school. I was amazed that so many of these so-called Math Jocks didn't realize that eventually, nurses & PAs would be eating their lunch in the real world of earning a living and one, past the age of 40.

In reality, EEs were only marketable because of either the graces of the defense sector [ Military branch, Raytheon, United Tech, etc ] or the fact that EMC, IBM, Qualcomm, Intel, etc need QA engineers to grace their headcount.

Here's reality for American engineers ... Natl Sec careers, Patent Agent, or Medical School, these are your options in life.

Entitlemented says

No problems with manufacturing or technology in the US:

http://www.pacbiztimes.com/2013/05/01/former-energy-secretary-calls-for-manufacturing-renaissance/

that depends what you call "manufacturing"... frankly i would be careful when talking to Dems. But as both Obama and Clinton stated... that world we knew called manufacturing is long gone. They of course are wrong in many ways.

Are we talking about complex manufacturing of semiconductors and less complex like textiles, I am all for it. But this administration does NOT have the religion behind it... they dont believe in it.

Its a question of "show me" how quickly in number of months you expect plants to be making a variety of products.. Anything past 18 months is really too late.

Entitlemented says

Question for Patricians:

How is having by far the wealthiest Law firms in the world related to the lack of generational US kids going into manufacturing, science, technology, math?

How is technology accommodated in the US vs. Asia:

http://www.semiconductors.org/public_policy/tax/

What role did NAFTA have in this?

No not NAFTA... Your mom always said.. Be a doctor or lawyer... never did she say Engineer especially Software Coder..

thomaswong.1986 says

Your mom always said.. Be a doctor or lawyer... never did she say Engineer especially Software Coder..

Everyone's mom, aunt, & cousin said to be a doctor, since even boring Pathologists earn over $200K with lifelong career security.

In fact, I'd say it's worth it, to attend MD school at any age, early 30s to 60s because if you're an 'exam' taker, it's the only profession with a near guaranteed income stream.

You can be an engineer and after the age of 42, find yourself under/(un)employed, if your prior area is no longer *hot*. Thus, a prior hot shot, billing at $150/hr may find himself, billing at $25-30/hr [ & discontinuously at 3 to 6 months/yr ] after the age of 45. As a doctor, you'll never experience lifelong underemployment. True, you may never finish paying off those loans [ esp if you decide to become a pediatrician in San Fran or Boston ] but hey, beggars can't be choosy.

Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.

Here's the salary.com entry for Pathologists:

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Physician-Pathology-Salary-Details.aspx

Note, this is one of the lower stress areas of medicine which involves minimal patient contact, aside from perhaps dead ones.

I'd much rather be a Pathologist, from the age of 48 to 68, vs being an engineer during those years, with chronic unemployment and shrinking salaries.

Rin says

I'd much rather be a Pathologist, from the age of 48 to 68, vs being an engineer during those years, with chronic unemployment and shrinking salaries.

Also, dead bodies aren't as crazy as pointy-haired bosses...

From the Mercury News:
The U.S. Senate's compromise measure would require employers seeking foreign programmers, engineers and other skilled workers to post jobs on a government website and give preference to American job applicants who are "equally or better qualified." That and other proposed regulations could make it more difficult and expensive for firms to sponsor workers through H-1B visas....one Silicon Valley entrepreneur welcomes the new restrictions. Too many companies use the three-year H-1B visa to bring in cheaper labor, undermining the U.S. tech workforce, the CEO of Newark-based Systems in Motion warned Congress last week.
"The visas are primarily being used for lower costs," Neeraj Gupta said in his Senate testimony.

Rin says

Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.

Pretty much.. might even retire earlier than your peers in other professions.

thomaswong.1986 says

Rin says

Here's the ticket ... work as a doctor in a boring midwest city like Des Moines or Omaha. That'll cut your rent/condo payments to $600/month. Your salary will still be $200K+. Then, you can eliminate those pesky loans within 2 years post-residency. And then afterwards, you can move back to one of your favorite locales.

Pretty much.. might even retire earlier than your peers in other professions.

And even better than fully retiring ... keep one's board certification & work one day per week, earn $50K, and then, not even touch the eggs nest except for emergencies. Doctors are in demand and there are moonlighting stints available. For $50K, I'll work as a garbage man, one day per week. That's six days left to work on my golf game.

gsr says

Do you know who that 1% is? People in your neighborhood.

Wrong once again. "...the New York metropolitan area has the largest number of very high-income households. Nearly 12 percent of top-income households live in the New York region, compared to about 7 percent of all households. Second-place Los Angeles is home to about 5 percent of the very rich, compared to about 4 percent of all households."

I guess it isn't surprising that you don't understand the difference between counties with high median incomes (that are due to a very high share of the population having college degrees, you know the very people you believe should be replaced with H-1B visa holders) and the super-rich.

jaldi1 says

then want to get a good return on their investment by paying lower wages to immigrants

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa, Einstein.

EBGuy says

That and other proposed regulations could make it more difficult and expensive for firms to sponsor workers through H-1B visas....one Silicon Valley entrepreneur welcomes the new restrictions. Too many companies use the three-year H-1B visa to bring in cheaper labor, undermining the U.S. tech workforce, the CEO of Newark-based Systems in Motion warned Congress last week.

Hopefully then, that cruise ship will finally sail outside of SD ...

http://www.sea-code.com

Rin said: that cruise ship will finally sail outside of SD...
No H-1B, no problem. Talk about indentured servitude... at least a H-1B holder has the possibility of finding another sponsor (or legal representation) on land. On the boat... well, you can swim for it if you don't like the working conditions.

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

finehoe says

Wrong once again. "

You can deny all you want. Does not change facts:
http://www.Cvm3NSN0YoY

finehoe says

I guess it isn't surprising that you don't understand the difference between counties with high median incomes (that are due to a very high share of the population having college degrees, you know the very people you believe should be replaced with H-1B visa holders) and the super-rich.

Biggest employers in DC are defense industries, who make money from the government for spying on American people, and building more drones to kill people all over the world. No, H1-Bs don't get the chance to go anywhere near there. And cost cutting is the least of their concerns.

finehoe says

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

gsr says

Biggest employers in DC are defense industries, who make money from the government for spying on American people

As I'd mentioned, the best and most secure work for S&Es is at the Natl Sec Agency, between DC and Baltimore.

Contractors are if-fy, as projects tend to move around a lot, between R&D/delivery cost centers, sometimes VA or MA, then CO, then TX. Better to work with the Feds directly, like a Pentagon liaison.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And you keep telling gullible people that "'forners" are responsible for all of the economic miseries. This is a good game. But it won't last forever.

Rin says

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

You did not hear about this?
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Blueseed-to-entrepreneurs-Your-ship-may-come-in-3570961.php

It is started by Peter Thiel, German immigrant and founder of Paypal.

gsr says

You did not hear about this?

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Blueseed-to-entrepreneurs-Your-ship-may-come-in-3570961.php

It is started by Peter Thiel

I knew about sea-code, didn't know that Thiel (or the other avant-garde startup-er Musk) fellows were at it.

Rin says

finehoe says

gsr says

more companies will set up offices...on cruise ships.

If they are really smart, they will use working cruise ships, and have the "help" not only do IT outsourcing, but also cook and clean the staterooms. Two birds with one stone!

Carnival Tech Cruises ... bring your work to us, we'll be right by your yard ... now docking on Catalina Islands CA, Nantucket MA, Outer Banks NC, Key West FL for the ultimate in offshoring experiences. Coast Guard need not apply :-)

Your signing bonus? Norovirus!

gsr says

You can deny all you want. Does not change facts

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

if what a good software engineer gets in bay area is called scraping by then something is wrong with your definition. anyhow, whats the whole fuss about ? Are software engineering salaries too low ?

I thought good software engineers get paid well.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm

Do you guys need to be paid 500k per year ?

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

San jose- sunnyvale - santa clara which house most of the H1B's has better income distribution than rest of the USA.

Rin says

Here's reality for American engineers ... Natl Sec careers, Patent Agent, or Medical School, these are your options in life.

You got that right Rin. Don't tell the poor fools that are applying for college to study engineering.

jaldi1 says

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve.

San jose- sunnyvale - santa clara which house most of the H1B's has better income distribution than rest of the USA.

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

jaldi1 says

anyhow, whats the whole fuss about ? Are software engineering salaries too low ?

I thought good software engineers get paid well.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm

Do you guys need to be paid 500k per year ?

In my current field, if a prop trader earns less than $200K, he's considered a *failure* among his peers. Sorry, not my perspective, I'm just passing the message along.

The fact that a number of engineers earn from $65K to $120K, means that the field is still viable for those, who've survive all the rounds of layoffs. My guess it that many of them are from the ages of 27 to 39. And then, the numbers drop off dramatically, once they hit ~45.

finehoe says

Idiot. That video doesn't disprove what I said at all. Typical of your ilk, you see no difference between a place that has a strong middle class with a median income of $100,000 and one that has the same median income, but is due to a few rich people and lots of people just scraping by. The former is what progressive leftists want, the latter is what the neofascist right is doing everything in their power to achieve,

Doesnt work... never could ! At least in Texas they do get it. Many who come to CA from the Liberal East coast with a fantasy of getting rich are lost.

ON THE RECORD / CARL GUARDINO

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/ontherecord/article/ON-THE-RECORD-CARL-GUARDINO-2574540.php#ixzz2SCB7qX00

Q: So are those really challenges?

A: Unequivocally, yes. Not only to the CEOs in the boardroom, but to any family you talk to in their living room. What we hear time after time from CEOs as well as frontline employees is how incredibly difficult it is to come here and stay here. That truly does have an impact on a company's bottom line when the cost differential is so much higher here than it is in other regions around the state, nation and globe, or the ability to recruit top talent is also impacted.

You mentioned housing. It probably is the top concern we hear about in Silicon Valley from both CEOs and employees in terms of local issues. Does that have an impact? Let me put a finer point on it.

Hewlett-Packard and Dell are the top two computer-makers in the world. Corporate headquarters for HP are located in Palo Alto and Dell is in Round Rock, Texas. Obviously, they both have people and facilities around the globe.

In those two communities where their corporate headquarters are and where a lot of research and development takes place, the median resale price for a home in Palo Alto is about $1.6 million. In Round Rock, Texas, it's about $180,000, except the home and property are bigger.

We hear from HP all the time that a huge deterrent to the ability to recruit and retain people anywhere near Silicon Valley is the housing issue. We don't hear that from Dell, which is also a member company, about their operations in Round Rock. It does continue to plague us and we will continue to sound the alarm.

Wrong1986, your words are orthogonal to the topic at hand.

STEM shortage - real or no?

finehoe says

That video doesn't disprove what I said at all

Will this one do?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/magazine/washingtons-economic-boom-financed-by-you.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&

New Renter says

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

No what it means is that, san jose has the highest median income in the entire US and on top of it the income disparity is very low.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/americas-richest-cities_n_1910260.html
this shows that most people make good incomes here. ( esp engineers).
Most people on this thread are complaining that engineering salaries ( upwards of 100K+ ) are not high enough.
Tell that to the factory worker who is doing two shifts and barely making 30K. The fact is that engineers in bay area are paid well.

You can always find other jobs ( hedge funds,doctors,..etc) to compare and whine about ..that type of thinking is just a mindset issue and nobody can fix it.

jaldi1 says

New Renter says

So the H1B engineers make the same as Wal-Mart greeters? As Starbucks baristas?

No what it means is that, san jose has the highest median income in the entire US and on top of it the income disparity is very low.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/americas-richest-cities_n_1910260.html

this shows that most people make good incomes here. ( esp engineers).

well the News media assume too much without doing any investigation. the reality is in SV sales people make alot of money.. they make a commission on the sales they generate. many sales people actually live outside of SV near their customer hubs.

second, we have shed many local jobs since late 80s.. removing manufacturing and then later Engineering and GA leaving only some 5-10% locally. Much of that are executive positions and support staff. So on average, even if salaries didnt increase, it only seems that MANY people are making more in salaries by removing the bottom 75-80% of headcount.

But year before all this 60-70-80s... majority of the people who worked here did alright without too much competition. Japan entering the Tech sector changed all that..

I hear constant complain on this forum that "chindians" are driving up the real estate price in SFBA. Aren't they mostly 1st generation immigrants, and typically started as H1Bs?
So which one is true? Are they working under slave wages, or are they buying up all the real estates? Two things together can't be true. Choose one and stick with it. I would say it is the second one.

jaldi1 says

You can always find other jobs ( hedge funds,doctors,..etc) to compare and whine about ..that type of thinking is just a mindset issue and nobody can fix it.

I was originally a STEM worker, who's now a money manager at a hedge fund. I have some perspective & thus, assert my right to complain about my former so-called profession. My response to all STEMers who're here is that the GRASS is in fact GREENER, on my side of the fence. Unlike others in the HF world, I own a house in western Massachusetts, not a posh Boston/NYC suburb and thus, I have zero worries about money. My mortgage has been paid off for two years, I have a huge stash of savings, *Cadillac* health & life insurances, and my daily lifestyle is that of a person who earns some $75K/yr. If/when this gig ends (I don't expect to survive for more than 6-7 years in this arena), is to attend medical school with my savings, and then, have lifelong employment, regardless of how my investments perform.

Now, like STEM, a lot of HF persons are kinda young, however, unlike STEM, rampant age discrimination doesn't exist. If you're known to be good at trading, sales, or what have you, finding work in one's 40s isn't out of the question. However, newcomers are not welcome past a certain age. That threshold varies between generations.

On the other hand, as a physician, one can work anywhere from one's 40s till one's 70s. In contrast, many STEM workers will either be in documentation, management, or out of work by one's 50s.

gsr says

Will this one do?

Are you really that thick? Yes, the DC area has a high median income. BECAUSE IT HAS A STRONG MIDDLE-CLASS, NOT BECAUSE THE SUPER-RICH LIVE THERE. I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse (a common internet troll tactic) or if you are genuinely that stupid (also pretty common in cyberspace). This article addresses the issue much better than the one you posted: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2011/10/where-one-percent-live/393/

gsr says

I hear constant complain on this forum that "chindians" are driving up the real estate price in SFBA. Aren't they mostly 1st generation immigrants, and typically started as H1Bs?

So which one is true? Are they working under slave wages, or are they buying up all the real estates? Two things together can't be true. Choose one and stick with it. I would say it is the second one.

Seriously? You troll this forum and STILL equate income to housing affordability? Well my friend let me help shed some light on your paradox. Here are some stories which came to light during the last bubble:

Casey Serin--the self-dubbed 'World's Most Hated Blogger'--purchased eight homes between October, 2005 and May, 2006 with the intent of fixing them up and then reselling. Serin, who was unemployed, lied on all of his mortgage applications to get these loans and even receive cash back at closing. At one point, this 24-year-old would-be real estate mogul was in debt over $2.2 million.

Not surprisingly, Serin lost all of his homes in 2007 to foreclosure. News coverage of this was significant. The earliest media stories suggested that Serin may have been a victim of greedy mortgage lenders, but the reporters eventually picked up on the fact that he lied on his mortgage applications and coverage turned negative.

Story 2
How does a California strawberry picker earning less than $15,000 a year qualify for a home loan of $720,000? That was the question everyone wanted answered last year. Borrower Alberto Ramirez, an immigrant who could not speak English, placed the blame on his real estate agent.

But of course, it wasn't the loan that was the problem--this house was simply unaffordable given the borrower's income. Within a few months, the real estate agent quit subsidizing the Ramirez's payments and the borrower quit paying on the advice of an attorney.

http://homeguide123.com/articles/Top_5_Most_Ridiculous_Mortgage_Borrower_Stories_of_2007.html

This all came out as the last bubble was popping. Who knows what we'll be hearing about as this one pops.

Then there are the all cash buyers - that category of buyer CAME OVER with their money, they did not earn it here as H1Bs.