patrick.net

People always seem to have the wrong answers, because they ask the wrong questions.

I keep hearing people chide Bernie and his supporters, about "why won't they just get behind Hillary already". The correct question, is why won't hillary and her supporters, get behind Bernie?

Clinton started calling for party unity, the night of the PA elections, and has stayed the course since. How did the democrat voters respond to her leadership? They voted against her in every election

The Democratic Convention will be contested

The media entertained any number of different losers, taking the Republican party to contested convention. Lying Ted, hungry hungry Kasich, hell even Rubio, Carson, and oddly enough, Romney. They didn't just entertain the idea, they oushed for it. Claiming that any of those losers could make a good case to beat Trump out on the second ballot at convention. Even while the voters kept on voting Trump and dismissing those losers.

For some reason, that doesn't apply on the democrat side ( reason being dems and media are controlled by the evil 1%). Bernie is a better candidate who has shown that he can win the election. Hillary is a terrible candidate, who has shown that she can lose the election.

Welcome to bizarro world

Addendum: Clinton and Trump neck-to-neck in race at this time.

The Democratic Party is taking a huge risk by picking Hillary over Bernie. A 3% lead is utterly insignificant especially since the general election hasn't even started.

People in this country vote for the candidate they hate the least, and Bernie is the only candidate that more people like than hated.

Plus if Bernie supporters stay home, the Democrats lose a lot of potential House and Senate seats which quite frankly are far more important than the presidency.

errc says

People always seem to have the wrong answers, because they ask the wrong questions.

I keep hearing people chide Bernie and his supporters, about "why won't they just get behind Hillary already". The correct question, is why won't hillary and her supporters, get behind Bernie?

Perhaps because several million more people have voted for Hillary? Perhaps because she will go into the convention with a clear delegate lead in pledged delegates, and likely only need 10 or 20% of superdelegates to vote for her on the first round to end it?

AND, just because Hillary supporters are more mature, and would support Bernie if he won, to stop Drumpf, while the immature millenium spoiled little bitches that are hardcore Bernie supporters would rather see the country bern down in spite with Drumpf is hardly a selling point?

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

AND, just because Hillary supporters are more mature, and would support Bernie if he won, to stop Drumpf,

That's not maturity. That's foolish acquiescence.

1. Many of Bernie Sanders' supporters are independents who cannot even vote in the primaries. Those independents are under absolutely no obligation to vote for a democrat in the national election. They wanted Bernie, not just any democrat.

2. Even those who don't want to see Trump as president may vote for him or stay at home in order to win the war by losing a battle. You know what's more important than the next 4 years? The next 40 years. Allowing Hillary to win would effectively give control of the Democratic Party to the nepotistic insiders, and that is far worse than losing the White House for four or even eight years.

3. No moral person can in good conscious vote for someone who voted in favor of torturing, raping, and murdering people and revoking the right of habeas corpus through the vile USA Patriot Act. At least Trump has never order the torturing and rape of people. Hillary has.

4. No registered Democrat is obligate to always vote Democrat no matter how evil the candidate is or how bad her well-established policies are. We know exactly what Hillary Clinton's administration will be like. It will be a continuation of the Bush/Obama administrations. At this point even a loose cannon like Trump would be preferable.

5. Trump is actually more liberal than Hillary on most issues. Yeah, he's an imbecile and his economic policies suck, but at least he's not a tyrant like Hillary.

6. Every fuck up that Trump will make as president -- and there will be lots of these -- will put another nail in the coffin of the Republican Party. Trump heralds the end of the GOP dominance in our country and the success of Richard Nixon's evil Southern Strategy.

7. Quite frankly, the races in the Senate and House are far more important than the White House. I'd much rather see the Democrats take the House and Senate than the White House. It will add to Trump's failures and hasten the demise of the conservative movement and the Republican Party. Hillary is a life-line for conservatism.

8. The Democratic establishment must get the message that nepotism will not be rewarded and that they will lose elections if they ignore all the liberals and independents. Even the fucked-up right can no longer win elections by appealing only to its base. The Democratic tent is far bigger and has to include liberals and independents, not just leftists.

I'm contesting both conventions.
They will be rooms full of idiots.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Bernie supporters would rather see the country bern down

As supposed to keep electing candidates like the Clintons, Obama and some Bush in between and the country just smoldering down. Slowly but surely.

Dan8267 says

Many of Bernie Sanders' supporters are independents who cannot even vote in the primaries. Those independents are under absolutely no obligation to vote for a democrat in the national election. They wanted Bernie, not just any democrat.

It's not about obligation. It is about making a rational choice. If you don't see the absolute danger of a Trump presidency, then you are too stupid to have a valid opinion.
In every avenue, from foreign policy to economics he has proven he is both ignorant, and not concerned to educate himself. comments like we could default, we shouldn't defend south korea or japan are beyond dangerous. he will defiintely provoke a trade war with china, and /or mexico or both, which will be economiclly horrible for the USA.

Not understanding these issues, and his statements on them means your opinion or anyone else's who supports them is just utterly ignorant.

Dan8267 says

Even those who don't want to see Trump as president may vote for him or stay at home in order to win the war by losing a battle.

more fucking ignorance. when you start a fire on your kitchen stove, you don't pour gasoline on it, just because someday you may build a better house, and who knows, your next wife and kids might be better after this family dies in flames.

Dan8267 says

Every fuck up that Trump will make as president -- and there will be lots of these -- will put another nail in the coffin of the Republican Party. Trump heralds the end of the GOP dominance in our country and the success of Richard Nixon's evil Southern Strategy.

Yep. that is true. Hitler sure did a number on fascism in europe too. When your antivaxxer friend has a kid die of measles they sure learn that their theory was wrong!

But when countries end, they don't always come back. Greece was the dominant civilization for a century, how's it been since? Ditto the middle east when europe was still in the dark ages.

SO, your theory of "fuck it up to make something better" can't be found anywhere in history;

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

foreign policy

Hillary has destabilized several countries allowing Fundamentalist Extremists to defacto rule huge expanses of it (Syria, Libya). She voted for the Iraq War. She is another very aggressive Russophobe. She is no different than McCain or Lindsay Graham on her foreign policy: A neocon hyperinterventionist with a track record of disaster.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

utterly ignorant.

To believe Hillary, who will have the added idea she has to 'prove herself tough' as a woman, would make a responsible President when all of her voting record and time as Secretary of State suggests somebody with a strong ideology and deep in the pockets of Fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, who breeds chaos everywhere, is the height of ignorance.

She has a proven track record of failure, from Iraq War Authorizations to the Patriot Act to destabilizing Libya by helping the Muslim Brotherhood and Jihadi groups overthrow Qaddafyi. And lying to Russia about trying to help Qaddafyi, so they wouldn't veto the UN Authorization, then overthrowing him weeks later anyway.

Very irresponsible.

I won't mention the Honduras Coup, where Hillary supported the right-wing coup plotters who overthrew an elected President simply for arranging a non-binding referendum on Constitutional Reform.

.Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

more fucking ignorance. when you start a fire on your kitchen stove, you don't pour gasoline on it, just because someday you may build a better house, and who knows, your next wife and kids might be better after this family dies in flames.

No, by voting for Globalist Corporatists, you continue to allow them to destroy the country and the world. Voting for Hillary, with a Republican Congress gung-ho on more wars and TPP and Open Borders Job Competition in the face of 16 years of flat wages is pouring gasoline on the fire.

Hillary started life as a Goldwater Girl and has always been a Corporate Stooge, back when she was at the anti-Union Rose Law Firm and as a Walmart Boardmember, up to her stumping for NAFTA and, during her entire term as Sec of State, TPP.

She can say what she likes now, but she has a verifiable record of voting and stumping for NAFTA, TPP, the Columbia Trade Deal, Obamneycare, etc. When she ran against Obama, she was Annie Oakley. Now she's the Frances Willard of Firearms that she's running against Bernie. Even in the race for NY Senate, she was anti-Gay Marriage, and was unconditionally until 2010. It wasn't until 2013, long after several states already approved it and it clearly turned the corner, has Hillary embraced full Gay Marriage.

She attacked Obama on not putting forward a UHC plan in 2008; now she criticizes Bernie for offering one.

Bring Hillary to Heel!

#NeverHillary

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

It is about making a rational choice.

Although you may not agree with the choices of others, it does not make them irrational. I gave you eight rational reasons why some people are not going to vote for Hillary even if they don't like Trump. That's eight. You may not agree with those reasons, but that does not make them any less rational. Case in point, you have not made any counter-arguments against any of those reasons.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

If you don't see the absolute danger of a Trump presidency, then you are too stupid to have a valid opinion.

That's a Straw Man argument. I know full well the dangers of a Trump presidency. It is you who does not acknowledge the dangers of a Hilary Clinton presidency.

Clinton is at least as much of a war hawk as Trump. She voted repeatedly for torture legislation. Drone strikes against innocent civilians were rampant during her reign as Secretary of State, and such strikes were the greatest recruiting tool for ISIS and other terrorist groups.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

more fucking ignorance. when you start a fire on your kitchen stove

Analogies are the weakest form of debate. For every analogy you can make, I can make an equally cliche analogy that contradicts yours. For example, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

SO, your theory of "fuck it up to make something better"

That's not my position. That's a Straw Man you made up because you cannot address my actual position, which is that the next 40 years of presidential, senatorial, and house elections are far more important than the next four years of the democrats holding the White House.

The bottom line is that you Hillary supporters have been too foolish to include in your cost-benefit analysis the fact that Sanders appeals to liberals and independents whereas Hillary does not. That's why Sanders polls far better against Trump than Hillary. If Hillary loses to Trump, it will be the fault of Hillary supporters. Bernie would not lose to Trump. Not a chance.

Being an independent in a state with a closed primary, Florida, I cannot vote in the primaries. But I am under no moral or ethical obligation to vote for a democrat that I find morally reprehensible. I'm not sure which option is best yet: voting Trump, writing in Sanders, or voting third party. However, a vote is essentially a form of free speech. It is a way of saying what you want and what you don't want even if you don't get your way that election. As such, dissenting votes carry value.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Hitler sure did a number on fascism in europe too.

Thank you for demonstrating Godwin's Law. It does make you look more rational.

Trump is an idiot and a loose cannon, but Hillary is downright evil. But if you are so afraid of Hillary losing to Trump -- and you should be given Trump's surprising resilience -- then do whatever you can to persuade the superdelegate to vote strategically instead of according to the will of the people, which by the way was highly manipulated by the party and it's allies in the media. Hell, strategic voting is the sole purpose of having superdelegates.

This is how Bernie does against Trump. It's a landslide for Bernie. He's 13 points ahead.

Here is how Hillary does against Trump. She's 5.2 points ahead, about a third of Bernie's lead.

Other polls show Hillary and Trump neck-and-neck.

Even the Huffington Post, a rag that performs cunnilingus on Hillary every day, admits that Bernie slaughters Trump in the general election by 12.1 points. Whereas they put Clinton 3.2 points ahead of Trump at this time. That's four times the lead of their heavily preferred candidate.

Every news outlet agrees that Sanders has more potential to beat Trump

Recent data show Sanders has double-digit lead in support over Republican candidate while Clinton would face tight race.

Recent polls have demonstrated that Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders holds a much higher potential to defeat Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee, in an election than Hillary Clinton, although the latter is the Democratic party's frontrunner.

The Reuters news agency, RealClearPolitics, a US non-partisan polling data aggregator, are among the organisations that have released ratings indicating that Sanders would have the upper hand in the battle for the White House.

Dustin Woodard, an analytics expert who played a major part in the discovery of the Reuters poll trend, told Al Jazeera that a significant reason for Sanders' advantage was due to disproportional support from independent voters - a group that he says other polls failed to factor in.

"Independents are the largest voting population in the US. Gallup reports that independents are 42 percent of the voting population, while Democrats are only 29 percent and Republicans are only 26 percent".

Not only are independents favoring Sanders over Trump, but they are most likely to switch to voting for Trump if Clinton gets the nomination. Clearly it is highly irrational to support Hillary in any way, shape, or form if you want to make sure Trump isn't elected.

Not enough evidence yet? [Oh, evidence is that thing that rational people use to base their decision making.] Here's a couple more polls from reputable sources. All polls indicate Clinton/Trump vs Sanders/Trump leads.
Wall St. Journal Clinton +10 Sanders +15
CNN/ORC Clinton +6 vs Sanders +12
Quinnipiac Clinton +1 Sanders +6
Fox News Clinton +5 Sanders +15

Notice a pattern there? Still not enough?

Sanders Still Strongest Candidate as New Poll Shows Trump and Clinton in Near-Tie

Sanders continues to trounce Trump by double digits, 51 to 40 percent, according to the George Washington University survey

Though the media and political establishment have all but declared Hillary Clinton the official Democratic presidential candidate, new polling on Monday shows that Bernie Sanders continues to fare significantly better when matched against Republican frontrunner Donald Trump.

Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump: General Election Match-Up Polls & Favorability Ratings

Would Democrats Be Better Off With Sanders vs. Trump?

The new poll shows Clinton in a dead heat with Trump in Pennsylvania, leading him by just one point, 43 percent to 42 percent. Sanders, meanwhile, leads the billionaire 47 percent to 41 percent.

Latest Reuters Data Shows Hillary Losing to Trump, but Bernie Wins

As the presidential candidate field narrows, the number of polling participants marking undecided or not sure drops dramatically in election polls. Reuters has been the go-to resource for election sentiment, especially for head-to-head data. The most recent data confirms what many may have feared: Hillary Clinton actually loses in a head-to-head matchup against Donald Trump, while Bernie Sanders beats him easily.

To put it simply, it is Hillary who should drop out of the race to keep the Democratic Party together and keep Trump out of the White House. She is putting her personal ambitions before the country, and she would do the same as president. Bernie not only hands down beats Trump in the general election, Bernie also makes a far superior president.

If the Democrats want the votes of tens of millions of independence, not represented in the primaries, they better select Bernie Sanders. If independents could vote in these closed primary states, Clinton would have dropped out a long time ago.

By the way, love watching Hillary supporters blame Bernie for everything.

This time, the Clintonistas won't just get the Progressive Base vote automatically.

Also, if Hillary is elected, her sordid past as Crooked Hillary will result in nothing but endless mudslinging between Congress and Herself.

At least with Bernie it will be over actual Issues.

thunderlips11 says

Hillary has destabilized several countries allowing Fundamentalist Extremists to defacto rule huge expanses of it (Syria, Libya).

Hillary is a chicken-hawk the same as Obama, Bush Jr, Bush Sr, and Reagan. Her husband's policies, which were actually mediocre at best, are not her policies. Hell, Bill Clinton only looks so damn good because the two administrations prior to him and the two administrations after him were so fucked up. He looked like a god in contrast to immense stupidity.

thunderlips11 says

To believe Hillary, who will have the added idea she has to 'prove herself tough' as a woman, would make a responsible President when all of her voting record and time as Secretary of State suggests somebody with a strong ideology and deep in the pockets of Fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, who breeds chaos everywhere, is the height of ignorance.

Exactly. First it's dangerous to allow someone to hold power who feels he or she needs to "prove their machoness". Did we learn nothing from George W. Bush?

Second, we know exactly what Hillary Clinton's foreign policy will be as president based on her actions as Secretary of State. She' not a diplomat. She's a hawk. Her policies will be far more militaristic than Bill Clinton's was. Bill at least kept the peace and only sparingly used the military and only for precise and limited missions. Hillary has never met a war she didn't like. I think she would actually use the military more than Trump despite his pandering to the conservative base. Trump actually does not represent conservative values at all. He's has "New York values". Redneck Hillary is actually quite a bit more representative of conservative values.

thunderlips11 says

No, by voting for Globalist Corporatists, you continue to allow them to destroy the country and the world. Voting for Hillary, with a Republican Congress gung-ho on more wars and TPP and Open Borders Job Competition in the face of 16 years of flat wages is pouring gasoline on the fire.

Exactly what I mean by losing a battle to win the war and the next 40 years of presidential, senatorial, and house control is far more important than the next presidential term.

I actually don't fear a Trump presidency too much if the Democrats sweep the house and senate. Trump's more radical ideas will simply be blocked. And Trump, as bad as he is, would actually be better for the middle class. At least Trump opposes -- or at least says he opposes -- the TTP. I don't think that Trump can do math or balance a budget, but he won't have the power to impose his policies. Republicans hate him, so even many of them will oppose his policies. If Democrats have a majority or even close to half of the house and senate, very little of Trump's platform would get pass. He would also likely be a one-term president.

thunderlips11 says

Even in the race for NY Senate, she was anti-Gay Marriage, and was unconditionally until 2010. It wasn't until 2013, long after several states already approved it and it clearly turned the corner, has Hillary embraced full Gay Marriage.

Both Obama and Hillary changed their stance on marriage equality solely because it became the more popular position and clearly the right side of history. Neither one of them is at all good on civil rights. Bernie, however, has an excellent civil rights issue. It's insane that African Americans aren't universally rallying behind him.

https://mic.com/articles/135785/bernie-sanders-personally-confirms-photo-of-his-1963-arrest-at-civil-rights-protest#.LPVf3p3yC

Bernie has actual street cred on civil rights.

Dan8267 says

The bottom line is that you Hillary supporters have been too foolish

voted for sanders, so wrong again…

I never argued that he wasn't a better candidate versus Drumpf. But, that isn't the system we have, and he isn't going to win the nomination.

And incidentally, he isn't perfect. Despite such a long time in the senate, he refused to articulate any national security positions during the debates, which was a real let down for many of us who wanted to support him more. I watched the debates, and watched him pivot to inequality of climate change every time. Those are issues, sure, but I wanted to hear about his plans vis-a-vis China; europe, middle east, and got nothing to not much. Hillary pissed me off too by still not being for marijuana legalization, "more time" FFS.

Doesn't matter. Trump is too dangerous, too stupid. Although, in all fact, I'll be fine, I'm quite well off now, and can leave this country if you twits really want to screw it up, I can live anywhere now.

Nice takedown Lips. Someone had to tell "sharingmystupidityandignorancewithmybetters" what's up with her favorite feminazi for POTUS!
#NeverHillary

Dan8267 says

Bill at least kept the peace and only sparingly used the military and only for precise and limited missions.

True. In fact if you go back to Bill's Presidency, it was Hillary that pushed him to intervene in Yugoslavia and bomb Belgrade in 1999.

I urged him to bomb

Dan8267 says

I actually don't fear a Trump presidency too much if the Democrats sweep the house and senate.

This is an ideal outcome, second only to a Bernie Victory and a Democrat Congressional sweep. BOTH the Clintonista and McConnell-Ryan Wings of both parties will be chasened, and real Democrats like Alan Grayson could work with Trump on H1-B Reform and Unfair Trade Issues.

thunderlips11 says

This time, the Clintonistas won't just get the Progressive Base vote automatically.

And that's the real story behind this election. Both Bernie and Trump represent the same change in American politics.

About every forty years we enter a new party system where allegiances change.

We are currently in the sixth party system, which began around 1960 according to this history of party systems by Arizona University. Now the transition from one party system to the next doesn't happen in just one election, but sometimes an election makes the transition very poignant.

I believe that this election marks the start of a transition to a new, seventh party system in which the Southern Strategy no longer can keep conservatives in control because the racists they rely upon simply don't make up a high enough percentage of the population to counter all the immigration and changing demographics of our country over the past two generations.

I don't know what the seventh party system will look like yet, but like all prior transitions, this transition is largely marked by an utter contempt for the establishment. That contempt has been building up for thirty years, but now it's at critical mass.

What constitutes the left and the right may very well change as alliances are broken and new ones formed. The Republicans have lost control of their base, the Tea Party, and have been taken over almost completely by Christian fundamentalists as Barry Goldwater predicted decades ago.

The Democratic Party has moved too far in favor of big business and the military industrial complex, a position that used to be the realm of Republicans. As a result, liberals are disgusted with the party even if less so than they are disgusted with Republicans. Furthermore, the Millennials, many of which are in their 30s, do not consider socialism to be a dirty word and are highly pissed off at the fact that the middle class has been eroded and the promise that any American who works hard and produces will have a good, stable life has been broken by both parties.

If I were to take a guess, it would be that the pro-big-business constituents of the Democratic Party will get kicked out and we'll see more and younger pro-socialist politicians over the next 20 years. Democrats will start talking openly about being socialists and how good socialism is. This will be a striking contrast with today when the term is used like "mother-fucker". We might even see a resurgence of labor rights movements. Progressives are getting pissed off that most of the gains in the early 20th century have been whittled away.

Hopefully, the new Democratic Party's core platform will be one of protecting and expanding the middle class, something that the old party has failed to do since Reagan.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

that isn't the system we have,

I'd rather get a better system by letting Trump win, then continue to support the old system by letting Hillary win. The system is more important than the candidate.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

And incidentally, he isn't perfect.

No one is, but he's clearly better than Hillary, whereas Hillary isn't clearly better than Trump, especially in the long run.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Trump is too dangerous

Hillary is just as dangerous -- for different reasons -- but just as dangerous.

thunderlips11 says

Dan8267 says

Bill at least kept the peace and only sparingly used the military and only for precise and limited missions.

True. In fact if you go back to Bill's Presidency, it was Hillary that pushed him to intervene in Yugoslavia and bomb Belgrade in 1999.

I remember when Bill responded to terrorism in a rational, proportional manner, the god-damn GOP accused him of Wag the Doging to distract from their contrived sex scandal.

In any case, Hillary's use of the military would be far greater. She, like Obama, essentially follows the Bush Doctrine. On the bright side, she at least knows what the Bush doctrine is, unlike Sarah Palin.

thunderlips11 says

This is an ideal outcome, second only to a Bernie Victory and a Democrat Congressional sweep. BOTH the Clintonista and McConnell-Ryan Wings of both parties will be chasened, and real Democrats like Alan Grayson could work with Trump on H1-B Reform and Unfair Trade Issues.

Exactly my thinking.

thunderlips11 says

True. In fact if you go back to Bill's Presidency, it was Hillary that pushed him to intervene in Yugoslavia and bomb Belgrade in 1999.

I urged him to bomb

which prevented a genocide in Kosovo.

So using this one as your "hillary = war criminal" given that even more liberal pacifistic NATO allies joined in is simply not true.

Even the war in Iraq, given the actual information we had at that time, is not the black and white issues milleniatards want to paint it as. I watched Collin Powells testimony at the UN, and was deeply conflicted. If what he was saying was true, we might have needed a war. It was only years later, that it became clear their were no actual weapons of mass destruction in IRAQ, and that Bush jr. was either absolutely lying, or running a very incompetent administration. But either way, as a peace loving generally liberal person, I can acknowledge that I just wasn't sure if we should go in or not, unlike a lot of people who have changed their opinions retroactively in hindsight. Of course, given the utter incompetence and lack of planning for the aftermath, its easy to have a different opinion today. However, her decision then has to be taken in light of the information available to make a decision then, and it was a pretty damn big consensus then, even if relying on false information. She joined a huge majority of democrats, and the country in general, in supporting a war, as a last resort. Multiple comments at the time of the vote show that she had very strong reservations about a war, and the actual language of the bill stated that negotiations and UN inspections to remove weapons of mass destruction were to be exhausted first.

Dan8267 says

I'd rather get a better system by letting Trump win

that sir, is the delusional part of berntards. Sad.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Dan8267 says

I'd rather get a better system by letting Trump win

that sir, is the delusional part of berntards. Sad.

I have given rational reasons to believe that and support all my positions with evidence. In contrast you have done nothing by assert your position. If anyone here is delusional, it is you.

The bottom line is that your inference here, that the system cannot be changed, is empirically false. As I have stated above, the system has changed no fewer than five times, approximately every 40 years, and we are exactly on schedule for another systematic change. Seeing patterns in history is not delusion. Thinking that history will not repeat itself is.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

that sir, is the delusional part of berntards. Sad.

By the way, that's another reason people who support Bernie Sanders, both democrats and independents, won't vote for Hillary. Her supporters are all assholes.

It's one thing to reluctantly choose Hillary over Trump because Sanders loses. It's quite another to ridicule those who do support Sanders. It demonstrates exactly the ideological differences that motivate Sanders supporters to not support Hillary. You can call them the irreconcilable differences that are the reason the Democratic Party is going through a divorce right now.

Bertnards? Well at least you are putting forth your best reasoned argument. But seriously I will not vote for Hillary because of what she stands for and her history and not because I want Trump to win. But then again I will not stand hostage to the Powers that be in the Democratic Party (including the Clinton s) based on the 'Trump threat'. If the system is rigged to require that, then it must happen.

Quite frankly, 40 years of "vote for me or the other guy will destroy everything" fear mongering has left me and many other tired of that line. It no longer works.

Remember the election of 2008? The Democratic Party knew that Hillary could not defeat McCain and so Harry Reid hand picked Obama for the sole purpose of preventing a McCain presidency. Trump is way the fuck more popular than old-man McCain was. The superdelegates will be fools to vote for her.

Dan8267 says

It's one thing to reluctantly choose Hillary over Trump because Sanders loses. It's quite another to ridicule those who do support Sanders. It demonstrates exactly the ideological differences that motivate Sanders supporters to not support Hillary. You can call them the irreconcilable differences that are the reason the Democratic Party is going through a divorce right now.

Good summary.

Sanders lost.

He's down 4-2 in a best-of-seven playoff, and demands they play the last game.

When we vote in November, the choice is Hillary for 8 years or Trump maybe for 2 or 3. You have to keep that in mind.

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

which prevented a genocide in Kosovo.

No it didn't, as the Kosovar Serbs will tell you.

tr6 says

It's one thing to reluctantly choose Hillary over Trump because Sanders loses. It's quite another to ridicule those who do support Sanders. It demonstrates exactly the ideological differences that motivate Sanders supporters to not support Hillary. You can call them the irreconcilable differences that are the reason the Democratic Party is going through a divorce right now.

Good summary.

Not really.

a spoiled entitled little milleneal cunt whining about his candidate, who is down several million total votes. Berniebutts were in favor of caucauses when he won them, then they became unfair when he lost them. etc. etc. the math is what it is.

I voted for Bernie in my state primary you silly little shit. But anyone voting for Trump for any of the reasons you quote, "make it worse now to make it better... cause then everyone will see it needs to get better... name one country and one time when that ever worked out... of course you can't, because reality doesn't work that way.

Dan8267 says

thunderlips11 says

Dan8267 says

I actually don't fear a Trump presidency too much if the Democrats sweep the house and senate.

This is an ideal outcome, second only to a Bernie Victory and a Democrat Congressional sweep. BOTH the Clintonista and McConnell-Ryan Wings of both parties will be chasened, and real Democrats like Alan Grayson could work with Trump on H1-B Reform and Unfair Trade Issues.

Exactly my thinking.

Thunderlips, Bernie or Bust advocates, and I aren't the only ones thinking along these lines. On the Republican side, conservative propagandist, er writer, George F. Will, yes that George Will, says If Trump is nominated, the GOP must keep him out of the White House in the New York Post of all rags,

Donald Trump’s damage to the Republican Party, although already extensive, has barely begun. Republican quislings will multiply, slinking into support of the most anti-conservative presidential aspirant in their party’s history. These collaborationists will render themselves ineligible to participate in the party’s reconstruction.

Trump would be the most unpopular nominee ever, unable to even come close to Mitt Romney’s insufficient support among women, minorities and young people. In losing disastrously, Trump probably would create down-ballot carnage sufficient to end even Republican control of the House.

Were he to be nominated, conservatives would have two tasks. One would be to help him lose 50 states — condign punishment for his comprehensive disdain for conservative essentials, including the manners and grace that should lubricate the nation’s civic life. Second, conservatives can try to save from the anti-Trump undertow as many senators, representatives, governors and state legislators as possible.

If Clinton gives her party its first 12 consecutive White House years since 1945, Republicans can help Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse, or someone else who has honorably recoiled from Trump, confine her to a single term.

George Will understands that sometimes you must deliberately lose a battle to win a war. He is outright stating that for conservatives it would be better if Trump lost and Hillary became a one-term president than to allow Trump to become president and destroy the Republican Party and lose both chambers of Congress.

So I state again,

6. Every fuck up that Trump will make as president -- and there will be lots of these -- will put another nail in the coffin of the Republican Party. Trump heralds the end of the GOP dominance in our country and the success of Richard Nixon's evil Southern Strategy.

7. Quite frankly, the races in the Senate and House are far more important than the White House. I'd much rather see the Democrats take the House and Senate than the White House. It will add to Trump's failures and hasten the demise of the conservative movement and the Republican Party. Hillary is a life-line for conservatism.

8. The Democratic establishment must get the message that nepotism will not be rewarded and that they will lose elections if they ignore all the liberals and independents. Even the fucked-up right can no longer win elections by appealing only to its base. The Democratic tent is far bigger and has to include liberals and independents, not just leftists.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

What happens when IHLlary releases the Dworkin Golem?

www.youtube.com/embed/d-sALU_hveA

Dan8267 says

6. Every fuck up that Trump will make as president -- and there will be lots of these -- will put another nail in the coffin of the Republican Party.

OR possible a nail in the coffin of the USA. You know, overreact to some threat from China, get us in a war while in a depression due to multiple trade wars at the same time, lose our allies in europe.

Your entire philosophy is just so fucking stupid. Vote for Cesar because after the terrible leader, we'll bring back a better democracy and Rome will be even better. OOPS. 4000 years and still waiting!

Vote for hitler, and then people will get tired of nazism. Oops, we just got bombed to shit and occupied.

Vote for Chavez in Venezuela, and then people will realize that we need more democracy, not less. Oops, the whole country, which was one of the nicest places I've ever personally lived, went right down the toilet.

I'm still waiting for your example of a country electing someone as unfit for leadership as trump ever getting better later....

Maybe Russia with Putin? you know, just wait another few years or a hundred?

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses, which superpac is paying you to be on this forum?

tr6 says

which superpac is paying you to be on this forum?

Whichever it is, they're not getting their money's worth. It might be a false flag of some sort:

Sharingmyintelligencewiththedumbasses says

Vote for Cesar because after the terrible leader, we'll bring back a better democracy and Rome will be even better. OOPS. 4000 years and still waiting!

I had no idea the Bell-Beaker people elected "Cesar," whoever that was, but if they're still alive after 4,000 years I would definitely like to meet them.

Bernie must stay in it until the end. Every vote he earns sends a message not only to Ratched but to powers that be in corporate america. Hopefully he does well in Cali as it does not represent the state that he would typically do well in from demographics standpoint. Too many coke or chevron for life voters around here...

dublin hillz says

coke or chevron for life voters

I haven't seen that phrase before. What does it mean?