patrick.net

FP says

I brought it as an example of religious beliefs, other than Muslim, leading to horrible things. Nowhere did I classify or imply which is worse.

You brought it up as an example of religious harm explicitly as a comparison to the carnage in Manchester. Why else would you bring it up in a thread about Manchester?

errc says

Speaking truth to the failings of Christianity really triggered the fuck out of you. Why?

No, it's your failure to condemn the carnage caused by a Muslim in the name of Islam. Don't really mind what you say about Christianity.

errc says

So if solving the Islamic problem is the hill you wish to die on (or more likely, send someone else's son to die on in the name of MIC profits and Christian delusions), what is the solution?

The solution is very simple.

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

If Christianity is so bad then where are the Christian suicide bombers?

he difference here is that child abuse is not officially part of Christianity

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What in the fuck would it take for you to make it official? How many children have been diddled by the church? Too many to count?

I bet if you ask any of the hundreds of thousands of kids that were sexually assualted by Christians figure heads, they'd describe it as a fate worse than death. The trouble with getting data on it, is that many of the kids end up committing suicide. One of the Eight, Seven deadly sins. So it's odd that the church promotes Assisted Suicide in this instance, but not when a supposed free person chooses to end the suffering and check out on their own terms, huh?

I'd wager more American kids have died from suicide after being diddled by a Christian, than have died at the hands of Islamic terrorists. And that's stunning, given history and numbers. There's over a billion Muslims out there. Anyone wanna take that bet

Dan8267 says

The New Testament is pro-slavery and was used as an argument for slavery by the South. And quite frankly, if you can't even get the issue of slavery right, you're a shit source of morality.

Dan, the whole world was pro-Slavery before William Wilburforce. Pagans had slavery, buddhists had slavery, Mongols had slavery, Muslims were the World Record Kings of Slavery, the Aztecs had entire slave peoples, etc. etc.

errc, child rape is a horrific act, every bit as evil as blowing people up. However, Christians don't cheer when a priest rapes a boy. Islamists however DO cheer when another "martyr" (aka coward) blows up more innocent people or mows them down in a stolen truck like the losers these Islamists are.

rando says

errc says

So if solving the Islamic problem is the hill you wish to die on (or more likely, send someone else's son to die on in the name of MIC profits and Christian delusions), what is the solution?

The solution is very simple.

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

Lmao yea, that'll do it.

So where is the honesty and courage of all you Trumpcucks to take him to task wrt Saudi Arabia? Islamic terrorism begins and ends with Saudi funding. Trump blew a bunch of hot air about being tough on Muslims, then turned around and bent over for the Saudis, while banning Iranians. Wtf?

The problem here seems to be Christianity and the proclivity of its adherents to abandon all facts and reason, for a belief system, marketed by charlatans for their own personal profits. They know you's are easy marks, nice, gullible people, that they use and sexually abuse

PeopleUnited says

errc, child rape is a horrific act, every bit as evil as blowing people up. However, Christians don't cheer when a priest rapes a boy. Islamists however DO cheer when another "martyr" (aka coward) blows up more innocent people or mows them down like the losers they are in a stolen truck.

Christian figureheads cover it up, and accuse the child victims of lying, or even blame them as if it's their fault.

Christian Priest to congregation: " we must pray, and forgive, Father O'Leary, for his sins. But can you blame him? Look at that sweet little boy with that delicious little penis! Now we must move Father O'Leary to a different church where he is free to molest other unsuspecting, vulnerable children! Don't forget to donate to the cause."

Congregation: "Amen!"

errc says

Islamic terrorism begins and ends with Saudi funding.

If you can prove this, then America needs to know. When will I be reading about it on CNN or watching it on nightly news? I'm not saying I disagree, but I want proof.

errc says

PeopleUnited says

errc, child rape is a horrific act, every bit as evil as blowing people up. However, Christians don't cheer when a priest rapes a boy. Islamists however DO cheer when another "martyr" (aka coward) blows up more innocent people or mows them down like the losers they are in a stolen truck.

Christian figureheads cover it up, and accuse the child victims of lying, or even blame them as if it's their fault.

Christian Priest to congregation: " we must pray, and forgive, Father O'Leary, for his sins. But can you blame him? Look at that sweet little boy with that delicious little penis! Now we must move Father O'Leary to a different church where he is free to molest other unsuspecting, vulnerable children! Don't forget to donate to the cause."

Congregation: "Amen!"

What kind of comic books do you read? In reality, the Catholics hate the sex scandals if for only this reason, it is costing them a lot of money!

You know who can stop future terror attacks?

www.youtube.com/embed/pKiB8-2LK6s

rando says

You brought it up as an example of religious harm explicitly as a comparison to the carnage in Manchester. Why else would you bring it up in a thread about Manchester?

Not as a comparison, but as an example that other mainstream religions are also very harmful. You think a few verses in the quoran are the root cause of evil. I think it is the state of indoctrination and blind belief. Religious texts can and have been interpreted in different ways throughout human history. Today some interpretations of Islam are the most savage. But this can change. The Bible is full of stories of genocide.

The Associated Press estimated the settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950 to 2007 totaled more than $2 billion.[105] BishopAccountability puts the figure at more than $3 billion in 2012.[54][102]

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$3 billion worth of christian figureheads practicing what they preach

Ouch

YesYNot says

rando says

You seem to be ignoring Islamic history

I'm simply pointing out that nobody even bothers to defend the actions of Christians over the last 2000 years. Nobody even acknowledges the need to do so. There must be a reason for it.

If you are referring to holy crusades, that's in the past. In those days there was all kinds of problems and Christianity was not as developed as it is today.

But Islam today, they are constantly trying to murder everyone... that's today, not 2000 years ago. But today.

Dan8267 says

Your example proves my point.

You don't have a point. If your's had been the ascendant attitude 75 years ago, we would have never defeated Naziism, the Japs and later Communism--our parents and grandparents kept the faith and won the day. Today's generation isn't so much not keeping the faith but throwing it away like so much rubbish and that's why the West is knuckling under to Islam all over the world. Islam has never had a crisis of faith.

rando says

errc says

So if solving the Islamic problem is the hill you wish to die on (or more likely, send someone else's son to die on in the name of MIC profits and Christian delusions), what is the solution?

The solution is very simple.

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

It's much more complicated when you have 1.6 billion people on earth who consider themselves to practice Islam. I guarantee you would be practicing Islam if you were born in the Middle East. This is why our daughter is being raised without religious brainwashing of any form. I think the 3rd largest religion below Christianity and Islam is ... no religion. islam and Christianity are both just battling it out for survival against secularism. Hopefully scientific secularism wins out before the major religions blow up the world battling it out over ancient texts written by neanderthals.

P N Dr Lo R says

"alternative lifestyles". Now these people, in their 50's, 60's and older are in the most influential positions of media, education and entertainment and can propagandize from those soap boxes.

If our society had the solidarity like that which existed between 1939 and 1945

Although I Like some of your other comments, sometimes you revert to Texas Christian divisiveness, and illustrate errc's and Dan's points about how Christianity can be misused.

I've been wondering why America lacks the solidarity of the 1939-45 period a lot, and I think a surprisingly big part of it results from President Eisenhower's decision to put "under God" and "In God We Trust" on everything. He did that at the behest of Knights of Columbus, btw; expressly not a charity, they do the Pope's dirty work in America, including financing politicians and ballot initiatives. Eisenhower meant well, hoping it would unify Americans against godless communism, but it backfired.

People disagree profoundly about religion, and changing the pledge of allegiance resulted in immediate litigation. The Supreme Court ruled you can't punish kids for not saying "under God." Maybe in Texas the schools had already been doing that and nobody dared complain, but when Eisenhower imposed that rule nationwide, pushback started immediately.

Similarly, the founders deliberately rejected putting "In God We Trust" on the currency, but today's Identitarian Christians have forgotten to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

By attempting to impose Christianity on everyone, identitarian Christians produce a backlash, and secularists fall into the trap of mistaking the enemy of their enemy for their friend. Secularists rebelling against Christian overreach end up embracing, of all things hijrah. It makes no sense if you step back and look at it, but they are caught up in the struggle.

To give you an example of the lethal consequences, consider the Clinton & W administration policy "don't ask don't tell." Highly qualified personnel including Army translators were forced out of the military during the Iraq war. The Army had to rely then on local Iraqi contractors, who tended to be Muslims with tribal and sectarian loyalty of their own. They were literally lying to American soldiers and denouncing as "terrorists" people who were trying to help the Americans. It was tragic. Americans using American forces, killed Iraqis who had been trying to help Americans. Other Iraqis saw this, and got the message. They stopped helping Americans, because they saw that their information would get "lost in translation" and used against them.

If you want to see America unify like it did in 1939-45, then quit pretending that the way of life your church teaches, and which you don't even follow yourself, is the only way or even the best way. Churchill said the reason Christendom is stronger than the Muslim world is precisely because Christianity is more tolerant. Every day, public schools teach evolution and geology, directly contradicting Genesis and the whole 'young earth' crowd (including VP Pence). Some Christians protest and homeschool their kids, but they don't blow up the schools. The biggest advantage America and other potentially allied countries have is that more people can have a stake in the success of these countries compared to the Islamic countries, where most people are oppressed. Texas Christians get in their echo chambers and forget that fact, and legislate in ways that backfire terribly.

YesYNot says

So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

You make a good point there, and I should give marcus credit for a similar point. Americans grow up amid a Christian majority. That doesn't make America officially a Christian country, but it does have a majority Christian culture. Even atheists who grow up in America tend to have a more Christian view of what is acceptable than they would if they grew up in, for example, an Islamic culture.

If you were born in an Islamic country to Muslim parents, and your parents and government and peers told you all your life that killing apostates and blasphemers (including atheists) was absolutely necessary and sacred, you might have very different attitudes and behaviors compared to growing up in America.

The Media is a bunch of Sick Fucks.

Also, when everybody is TRIBAL except your civilization, then you have a major problem.

TRIBAL loyalists will immigrate into your non-tribal civilization and try to impose their Tribal beliefs.

curious2 says

If you were born in an Islamic country to Muslim parents, and your parents and government and peers told you all your life that killing apostates and blasphemers (including atheists) was absolutely necessary and sacred, you might have very different attitudes and behaviors compared to growing up in America.

All of which would make you unsuitable for polite western society, right?

Modern Secular Liberal Materialists can't appreciate that Very Religious, Very Honor Centered Bandit Marauder cultures actually exist. This why there are so many SJWs. They feel that they are simply downtrodden Brown People who don't have as much stuff.

As horrible as Orlando was, it did probably result in at least some of the gay SJW crowd understanding that Islam really does want to kill them, and not co-exist with them.

rando says

As horrible as Orlando was, it did probably result in at least some of the gay SJW crowd understanding that Islam really does want to kill them, and not co-exist with them.

I wrote a thread on the Orlando shooter ...

https://patrick.net/1296234/2016-09-27-rin-s-truth-orlando-shooter-was-a-closet-gay-guy

rando says

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

Ah, but there IS violence. Do you think the terrorists kill more civilians than our drones and bombs? When did the Islamic terrorist attacks in the west start? Did Islam change since the 90's? You are not honest and will not be able to find a solution if you don't acknowledge the whole problem.

FP says

In contrast, the Russia narrative has mainly "appeal to authority," people with an established record of reportedly allegedly perjuring themselves for the team. Partisans deem them credible whenever the statements coincide with what the partisans want to hear. There is no physical evidence to prove anything illegal, only vague hints and innuendoes.

After the US led a grand coalition to defend Saudi Arabia and take back Kuwait. With the first WTC bombing. The same people reported "Cheering" on 9/11 were from the same Apartment Complexes in Jersey City and Paterson that NJ State Police and FBI visited in 1994.

I wonder if Manchester will be having any more anti Trump protests.

FP says

rando says

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

Ah, but there IS violence. Do you think the terrorists kill more civilians than our drones and bombs? When did the Islamic terrorist attacks in the west start? Did Islam change since the 90's? You are not honest and will not be able to find a solution if you don't acknowledge the whole problem.

There is blowback. No doubt US/western allied attacks on Moslem nations put a target on US and the west. So yes this needs to stop. But stopping our military from being international thugs won't stop ISIS. ISIS (which at this point is an idea not just a group of JV thugs like Obama called them, and you can't kill an idea) will fight till they run out of cowards willing to attack soft targets, or until there are no soft targets. In the meantime, ISIS achieves its will, painting the non-Islamic people as weak and corrupt.

Why can't people on the left be honest and just and say "22 lives is a small price to pay for the blessings of diversity"? Isn't that their de facto argument?

PeopleUnited, you missed the point. I'll wait a few more people to demonstrate missing it and I'll explain then.

FP says

rando says

Speak the truth about Islam. Do not give Muslims your tacit approval for the next murder, and the next, and the next...

No violence required. No war. Just honesty and courage.

Ah, but there IS violence. Do you think the terrorists kill more civilians than our drones and bombs? When did the Islamic terrorist attacks in the west start? Did Islam change since the 90's? You are not honest and will not be able to find a solution if you don't acknowledge the whole problem.

It's not fair to keep asking so many questions you already know they're not going to answer.

I'm not sure if these people even realize it but they're being used by competing factions, simultaneously.

What do terrorists want?

England, 1940: "Never yield to force. Never yield to the might of the enemy" England 2017: "We must get used to attacks like this."

errc says

What do terrorists want?

Sharia and an Islamic State.

Good Question.

The Leader of ISIS is a highly trained PhD in Islamic Studies who went to the best Religious Universities in the Islamic World.

It's as if some PhD in New Testament Studies from Harvard, who got his Bachelor's and Master's in Theology at Duke, "Doesn't really understand Christianity"

errc says

What do terrorists want?

Most of them want eternal paradise with 72 whores and a kingdom stretching from Syria to Yemen, as promised in the hateful fraud of Islam. The "moderate" Muslims want to spread Sharia. Both should be opposed, equally.

Imagine being trapped in a lobster kettle, slowly boiling alive; occasionally you see a spark from the fire below. That is the position some western European countries have created for themselves. The sparks of Islamic terrorism should alert them to the underlying fire that will otherwise consume them.

You and FP have argued that America has also done bad things, as if stopping those would solve the problem of Islam. You seem to forget the Muslim conquest of India, for example, which slaughtered more than 60 million Hindus before America was founded. You forget what Muslims do to other Muslims, even killing their own children for "honor". Most of the horrors of Islam started before America was founded and have nothing to do with us. You can certainly argue that the Bush and Clinton presidencies made matters worse by serving Hillary's Saudi and corporate clients at the expense of America, but they didn't slaughter a million Armenian Christians in the first genocide of the 20th century: that was Muslims, specifically the Ottoman Caliphate, whom America had not fought since the Barbary Wars a century earlier. America deserves credit for the Barbary Wars, which ended centuries of Barbaric piracy and the Barbary States' slave trade. The tendency to blame America does not solve the problem of Islam.

FP says

Ah, but there IS violence. Do you think the terrorists kill more civilians than our drones and bombs? When did the Islamic terrorist attacks in the west start? Did Islam change since the 90's? You are not honest and will not be able to find a solution if you don't acknowledge the whole problem.

To be sure George W. Bush and his agreement with the Saudis to invade Iraq as "retaliation" for the Saudi attack on America on 9/11 is one factor which has helped the Islamic terrorist wave along. Bush should be in jail.

But it's clearly far from the only factor. Muslims have taken up killing random innocent people in China, in Nigeria, Thailand, Sweden, Germany, the Philipines -- places that have nothing to do with the Iraq war at all.

A bigger factor would be the continuous Saudi funding for Wahhabi madrassas all around the Islamic world, but the biggest factor by far, IMHO, is the rise of the Internet and its use to propagate Islamic hate.

I suspect Bandar bin Sultan is actually the mastermind behind most of this, as he was of 9/11.

If someone bombed and killed my children in front of me...I'd probably have a hard time not wanting revenge also. Sometimes I'm shocked that US families whose relatives are killed by terrorists don't go nuts themselves and go on suicide missions themselves into the Middle East. Especially with the success of revenge movies like "Taken". Misery does love company. Most likely western comforts and counseling bring them back from the edge.

Weak-minded people at the brink of insanity who have nothing to lose in this world attitude will gravitate toward something that will reward their revenge. If that person lives in a 130 degree desert hellhole.... without western comforts I'd imagine terrorists organizations are like gangs in the inner cities. Join them to survive and eventually lose all hope.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is to create a world that isn't so unequal. Maybe then their will be less hopeless people tempted by the dark side?

That's actually the best praise I can give Christianity...and religion in general... it does pull people off the ledge of hopelessness on this earth if you buy into it.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Weak-minded people at the brink of insanity who have nothing to lose in this world attitude will gravitate toward something that will reward their revenge. If that person lives in a 130 degree desert hellhole.... without western comforts I'd imagine terrorists organizations are like gangs in the inner cities. Join them to survive and eventually lose all hope.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is to create a world that isn't so unequal. Maybe then their will be less hopeless people tempted by the dark side?

No, I think that's not it at all.

The majority of Islamic terrorists come from relatively comfortable circumstances, not poverty. Equality has little to nothing to do with the motivations for Islamic terrorism.

A psychological study by the Israelis concluded that the largest motive was a desire to prove devotion to Islam to other Muslims, especially to one's ancestral village and family.

They kill because it makes them feel like they are being good Muslims.

FP says

Ah, but there IS violence. Do you think the terrorists kill more civilians than our drones and bombs?

Yes they do. Terrorists have been killing innocent civilians all over the world. They kill anyone they hate. Other Muslims, Westerners, Africans, Asians. They also abuse human rights, enslave and auction off young girls still in their teens.

FP says

When did the Islamic terrorist attacks in the west start? Did Islam change since the 90's? You are not honest and will not be able to find a solution if you don't acknowledge the whole problem.

They started attacking the West well before the 1990's. Ever heard of the first Twin Tower bombings? As soon as they got hold of convenient bomb making technology, they have been attacking others.
Islam itself is the fucking problem to the whole damn world. When are YOU gonna acknowledge that?