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Senate bill is looking pretty good for us now....
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2017 Dec 2, 8:39am 21,877 views 113 comments
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74
HappyGilmore
2017 Dec 4, 3:09pm
Sniper says
That's tuition only. Double that for room and board.
There you go, median cost in the US is like $9,900 a year. Where's all these big costs.
That's tuition only. Double that for room and board.
75
HappyGilmore
2017 Dec 4, 3:14pm
socal2 says
I agree. There is a VERY strong correlation between being poor and having out of wedlock children. Let's enact policies that reduce wealth inequality to reduce out of wedlock children.
socal2 says
You're not alone, but in reality Dems want fewer poor people. It's Reps who enact policy after policy that creates more poor. Reps want to drive down wages by killing unions. Reps want to enact regressive tax plans.
The best thing the government could do is to try and reverse the skyrocketing rate of women having children out of wedlock
I agree. There is a VERY strong correlation between being poor and having out of wedlock children. Let's enact policies that reduce wealth inequality to reduce out of wedlock children.
socal2 says
The cynic in me thinks the Democrats want more poor immigrants and poor kids from broken families for votes and power.
You're not alone, but in reality Dems want fewer poor people. It's Reps who enact policy after policy that creates more poor. Reps want to drive down wages by killing unions. Reps want to enact regressive tax plans.
76
Goran_K
2017 Dec 4, 3:20pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 4, 3:20pm
HappyGilmore says
Exceptions?
The Brookings Institute, which is a left leaning research institute btw went over decades of demographic data and found you only have to do 3 things to not end up perpetually poor in the United States.
1. Graduate high school.
2. Get a job.
3. Get married before children.
Those 3 commonalities universally always lead to people not only NOT being poor, but being solidly middle class in America.
The exception doesn't prove the rule.
Exceptions?
The Brookings Institute, which is a left leaning research institute btw went over decades of demographic data and found you only have to do 3 things to not end up perpetually poor in the United States.
1. Graduate high school.
2. Get a job.
3. Get married before children.
Those 3 commonalities universally always lead to people not only NOT being poor, but being solidly middle class in America.
77
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 4, 4:02pm
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 4, 4:02pm
HappyGilmore says
If this was the case they would be strongly against mass immigration of poor people from 3rd world countries. But all we see from donkeys is constant clamouring for sanctuary and amnesty for illegals.
You're not alone, but in reality Dems want fewer poor people.
If this was the case they would be strongly against mass immigration of poor people from 3rd world countries. But all we see from donkeys is constant clamouring for sanctuary and amnesty for illegals.
78
Goran_K
2017 Dec 4, 4:13pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 4, 4:13pm
KimJongUn says
Exactly. Sanctuary Cities actually promote keeping illegals poor, and destitute. They have zero economic mobility, depend on the sanctuary government for basic needs, and if the DNC has it's way, they'll be given the right to vote. DNC playbook 101.
If this was the case they would be strongly against mass immigration of poor people from 3rd world countries. But all we see from donkeys is constant clamouring for sanctuary and amnesty for illegals.
Exactly. Sanctuary Cities actually promote keeping illegals poor, and destitute. They have zero economic mobility, depend on the sanctuary government for basic needs, and if the DNC has it's way, they'll be given the right to vote. DNC playbook 101.
79
anonymous
2017 Dec 4, 5:24pm
KimJongUn says
It's telling that you have to misrepresent in order to make an argument. If you had a stronger position, you wouldn't have to.
Dems don't want mass immigration of poor people. Dems want illegals that are here and their children to be treated with respect.
If this was the case they would be strongly against mass immigration of poor people from 3rd world countries. But all we see from donkeys is constant clamouring for sanctuary and amnesty for illegals.
It's telling that you have to misrepresent in order to make an argument. If you had a stronger position, you wouldn't have to.
Dems don't want mass immigration of poor people. Dems want illegals that are here and their children to be treated with respect.
80
Heraclitusstudent
2017 Dec 4, 5:37pm
Heraclitusstudent
2017 Dec 4, 5:37pm
anon_3b28c says
If you don't deport illegal, and set up 'sanctuary' cities where they won't fear to be deported, then first you are obviously in favor of illegal immigration and you are also sending a huge signal for poor people to come there. So you are de facto in favor of mass immigration.
If you think deporting people is a lack of respect, then you are de facto in favor of mass immigration.
Dems don't want mass immigration of poor people. Dems want illegals that are here and their children to be treated with respect.
If you don't deport illegal, and set up 'sanctuary' cities where they won't fear to be deported, then first you are obviously in favor of illegal immigration and you are also sending a huge signal for poor people to come there. So you are de facto in favor of mass immigration.
If you think deporting people is a lack of respect, then you are de facto in favor of mass immigration.
81
Heraclitusstudent
2017 Dec 4, 5:41pm
Heraclitusstudent
2017 Dec 4, 5:41pm
anon_3b28c says
I think most dems tolerate illegal immigrants because they want cheap landscapers and nannies.
i.e. they want semi slave workers that are cheaper than citizens, and won't complain about how they are treated.
This is hardly a sign of respect.
Dems want illegals that are here and their children to be treated with respect.
I think most dems tolerate illegal immigrants because they want cheap landscapers and nannies.
i.e. they want semi slave workers that are cheaper than citizens, and won't complain about how they are treated.
This is hardly a sign of respect.
82
FortWayne
2017 Dec 4, 5:56pm
FortWayne
2017 Dec 4, 5:56pm
It didn’t fail, it saved America in the 80s.
It was known as a great recovery. You should know your history.
HappyGilmore says
It was known as a great recovery. You should know your history.
HappyGilmore says
BlueSardine saysLibbies take note. :
In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, Franklin D. Roosevelt called for “bold, persistent experimentation” and said: “It is common sense to take a method and try it; if it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.”
Newsflash--trickle down has been tried already. And it failed.
83
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 4, 6:03pm
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 4, 6:03pm
anon_3b28c says
Bullshit: I didn't misrepresent anything. This is exactly how it is: donkeys are in favor in illegal immigration and against immigration enforcement, both on the border itself and inside the country. The first is evident from their opposition to "the wall", the second - from their insistance on sanctuary policies.
It's telling that you have to misrepresent in order to make an argument. If you had a stronger position, you wouldn't have to.
Bullshit: I didn't misrepresent anything. This is exactly how it is: donkeys are in favor in illegal immigration and against immigration enforcement, both on the border itself and inside the country. The first is evident from their opposition to "the wall", the second - from their insistance on sanctuary policies.
84
bob2356
2017 Dec 5, 5:45am
Heraclitusstudent says
What a crock of shit. Cities don't deport people, immigration is federal law. Sanctuary cities just don't do ICE's job for them.
If you don't stand up and demand people hiring illegals be put in jail then you are obviously in favor of illegal immigration. No jobs, no illegals Where are the raids on the big food processors like tyson and smithfeild since trump has taken office? Where are the raids on the big agri operations? Republican lawmakers fire up the base like you about illegals but constantly block any reform that would be meaningful. You are being played by people who are laughing all the way to the bank at how gullible you are.
Bread and circus. Works every time.
If you don't deport illegal, and set up 'sanctuary' cities where they won't fear to be deported, then first you are obviously in favor of illegal immigration
What a crock of shit. Cities don't deport people, immigration is federal law. Sanctuary cities just don't do ICE's job for them.
If you don't stand up and demand people hiring illegals be put in jail then you are obviously in favor of illegal immigration. No jobs, no illegals Where are the raids on the big food processors like tyson and smithfeild since trump has taken office? Where are the raids on the big agri operations? Republican lawmakers fire up the base like you about illegals but constantly block any reform that would be meaningful. You are being played by people who are laughing all the way to the bank at how gullible you are.
Bread and circus. Works every time.
85
bob2356
2017 Dec 5, 5:49am
FortWayne says
America was saved in the 80's by cheap oil prices, tripling the number of women in the work force, and 70 million baby boomers moving into the workplace while becoming consumers. You should know your history.
It didn’t fail, it saved America in the 80s.
It was known as a great recovery. You should know your history.
America was saved in the 80's by cheap oil prices, tripling the number of women in the work force, and 70 million baby boomers moving into the workplace while becoming consumers. You should know your history.
86
anonymous
2017 Dec 5, 7:09am
KimJongUn says
Dems are against boondoggle, huge wastes of money that will do nothing to curb illegal immigration.
Like Bob said--if you want to stop illegals, take away their jobs. Which means throwing a few CEOs in jail that are hiring them. It's very simple and costs almost nothing.
Bullshit: I didn't misrepresent anything. This is exactly how it is: donkeys are in favor in illegal immigration and against immigration enforcement, both on the border itself and inside the country. The first is evident from their opposition to "the wall", the second - from their insistance on sanctuary policies.
Dems are against boondoggle, huge wastes of money that will do nothing to curb illegal immigration.
Like Bob said--if you want to stop illegals, take away their jobs. Which means throwing a few CEOs in jail that are hiring them. It's very simple and costs almost nothing.
87
Patrick
2017 Dec 5, 7:27pm
Patrick
2017 Dec 5, 7:27pm
anon_8f378 says
I agree.
I don't blame illegals as much as I blame their employers. The employers of illegals are the ultimate source of the problem.
We need mandatory prison time for the employers of illegals.
Like Bob said--if you want to stop illegals, take away their jobs. Which means throwing a few CEOs in jail that are hiring them. It's very simple and costs almost nothing.
I agree.
I don't blame illegals as much as I blame their employers. The employers of illegals are the ultimate source of the problem.
We need mandatory prison time for the employers of illegals.
88
anonymous
2017 Dec 5, 7:36pm
Patrick says
Well with Republicans in absolute control of all levels of government, this should be very simple to implement, no?
anon_8f378 saysLike Bob said--if you want to stop illegals, take away their jobs. Which means throwing a few CEOs in jail that are hiring them. It's very simple and costs almost nothing.
I agree.
I don't blame illegals as much as I blame their employers. The employers of illegals are the ultimate source of the problem.
We need mandatory prison time for the employers of illegals.
Well with Republicans in absolute control of all levels of government, this should be very simple to implement, no?
89
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 5, 7:37pm
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 5, 7:37pm
anon_8f378 says
Rest assured, if this starts to happen, donkeys will pass sanctuary amendment for these fucks too. As in "refuse to enforce the law" (added for the thick in the head anon fucks who take everything literally).
Like Bob said--if you want to stop illegals, take away their jobs. Which means throwing a few CEOs in jail that are hiring them. It's very simple and costs almost nothing.
Rest assured, if this starts to happen, donkeys will pass sanctuary amendment for these fucks too. As in "refuse to enforce the law" (added for the thick in the head anon fucks who take everything literally).
90
zzyzzx
2017 Dec 6, 8:32am
zzyzzx
2017 Dec 6, 8:32am
HappyGilmore says
Trickle down worked just fine, it just trickled down to China, India, Mexico, etc. due to our free trade policies.
Newsflash--trickle down has been tried already. And it failed.
Trickle down worked just fine, it just trickled down to China, India, Mexico, etc. due to our free trade policies.
91
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 8:34am
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 8:34am
HappyGilmore says
There is no birth lottery. That's an excuse socialist use for trying to redistribute other people's wealth, it's what the Soviet Union used as an excuse to implement Communism and it lead to 100,000,000+ dead people in the 20th century. You're literally advocating for death, I advocate for life.
There is a giant capitalist market out there where anyone can make it just fine if they 1) Graduate high school, 2) Get a job, and 3) Don't have kids before marriage. The data proves that's all anyone has to do to make it in America. Just make good sound decisions.
Again, so we're clear. You advocate that ones' career opportunities are substantially based on the birth lottery. That is not unusual for Republicans.
I advocate for a merit based system where the best and brightest have the opportunity to get ahead even if they are born into a poor family.
There is no birth lottery. That's an excuse socialist use for trying to redistribute other people's wealth, it's what the Soviet Union used as an excuse to implement Communism and it lead to 100,000,000+ dead people in the 20th century. You're literally advocating for death, I advocate for life.
There is a giant capitalist market out there where anyone can make it just fine if they 1) Graduate high school, 2) Get a job, and 3) Don't have kids before marriage. The data proves that's all anyone has to do to make it in America. Just make good sound decisions.
92
anonymous
2017 Dec 6, 2:06pm
95
anonymous
2017 Dec 6, 4:20pm
Goran_K says
No, there absolutely is a birth lottery. Anyone who says otherwise is either very naïve or purposely disingenuous.
Do you have any links or source material backing up your claim that the Soviet Union used birth lottery as an excuse to implement communism?
There is no birth lottery. That's an excuse socialist use for trying to redistribute other people's wealth, it's what the Soviet Union used as an excuse to implement Communism and it lead to 100,000,000+ dead people in the 20th century. You're literally advocating for death, I advocate for life.
No, there absolutely is a birth lottery. Anyone who says otherwise is either very naïve or purposely disingenuous.
Do you have any links or source material backing up your claim that the Soviet Union used birth lottery as an excuse to implement communism?
96
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:21pm
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:21pm
So, just because someone pays "nothing" in taxes, they have no voice in how our progressive tax system is implemented, and where the money to fund the government comes from?
97
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:24pm
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:24pm
Goran_K says
So an accusation that you are misinformed or have some other overriding belief/agenda is jail worthy?
Or was it the part where Happy asked you to back up your claims with sources? :)
Try that again HappyGilmore, without the personal attack.
So an accusation that you are misinformed or have some other overriding belief/agenda is jail worthy?
Or was it the part where Happy asked you to back up your claims with sources? :)
98
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 4:36pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 4:36pm
Rew says
Why should they?
Why should someone who contributes nothing to the tax system have a say in how the money is spent?
They don't let 10 year olds vote on laws or vote for politicians.
So, just because someone pays "nothing" in taxes, they have no voice in how our progressive tax system is implemented, and where the money to fund the government comes from?
Why should they?
Why should someone who contributes nothing to the tax system have a say in how the money is spent?
They don't let 10 year olds vote on laws or vote for politicians.
99
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 4:37pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 4:37pm
Rew says
The asking for facts part was fine, the "anyone who thinks this is very naïve or purposely disingenuous, I'll let others judge which you are" is a personal attack.
Rules are pretty simple to follow IMO.
So an accusation that you are misinformed or have some other overriding belief/agenda is jail worthy?
Or was it the part where Happy asked you to back up your claims with sources? :)
The asking for facts part was fine, the "anyone who thinks this is very naïve or purposely disingenuous, I'll let others judge which you are" is a personal attack.
Rules are pretty simple to follow IMO.
101
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:45pm
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 4:45pm
Goran_K says
Anyone eligible to vote has a voice on anything up for debate.
Or shall we apply your logic out further to abortion and birth control?
She, the "zero tax payer" (who I guarantee is paying taxes of some form) absolutely gets a say. It influences all the people, community, and culture around her. (edit: I missed the big one, "It's the economy stupid". (disclaimer, that's an actual quote, not a slight at Moderator in Chief Goran))
They don't let 10 year olds vote on laws or vote for politicians.
Anyone eligible to vote has a voice on anything up for debate.
Or shall we apply your logic out further to abortion and birth control?
She, the "zero tax payer" (who I guarantee is paying taxes of some form) absolutely gets a say. It influences all the people, community, and culture around her. (edit: I missed the big one, "It's the economy stupid". (disclaimer, that's an actual quote, not a slight at Moderator in Chief Goran))
102
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 5:06pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 5:06pm
HappyGilmore says
Sure.
But I'm talking on a purely water cooler level. Does it seem fair that people who contribute nothing to the system get to vote on how money is spent? Seems pretty unfair.
Because of the Constitution? Ever heard of it?
Sure.
But I'm talking on a purely water cooler level. Does it seem fair that people who contribute nothing to the system get to vote on how money is spent? Seems pretty unfair.
103
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 5:07pm
Goran_K
2017 Dec 6, 5:07pm
Rew says
Sure, I've always agreed that women have a right to kill their babies. I've only ever argued with the pseudo-science claim that it's "not a baby, just a clump of cells".
Anyone eligible to vote has a voice on anything up for debate.
Or shall we apply your logic out further to abortion and birth control?
She, the "zero tax payer" (who I guarantee is paying taxes of some form) absolutely gets a say. It influences all the people, community, and culture around her. (edit: I missed the big one, "It's the economy stupid". (disclaimer, that's an actual quote, not a slight at Moderator in Chief Goran))
Sure, I've always agreed that women have a right to kill their babies. I've only ever argued with the pseudo-science claim that it's "not a baby, just a clump of cells".
104
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 6, 5:15pm
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 6, 5:15pm
Rew says
And everybody else can give their assessment regarding the value of her opinion.
Goran_K saysThey don't let 10 year olds vote on laws or vote for politicians.
Anyone eligible to vote has a voice on anything up for debate.
And everybody else can give their assessment regarding the value of her opinion.
105
anonymous
2017 Dec 6, 9:05pm
@Patrick,
It looks like this Goran guy is running rampant censoring people left and right... to the point that the jailed comments are now more interesting to read. Not good for the site.
FP
It looks like this Goran guy is running rampant censoring people left and right... to the point that the jailed comments are now more interesting to read. Not good for the site.
FP
106
Patrick
2017 Dec 6, 9:07pm
Patrick
2017 Dec 6, 9:07pm
I disagree. Maybe there are a few edge cases that are hard to classify, but think Goran is very fair.
Note that you can now actually see which user jailed any comment in jail. It's in the header line of the comment.
Note that you can now actually see which user jailed any comment in jail. It's in the header line of the comment.
107
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 9:29pm
Rew
2017 Dec 6, 9:29pm
anon_c8b23 says
I noticed some fascinating reads there as well.
KimJongUn says
Absolutely, but she still gets to vote, and you can never take that away because she is poor, or doesn't pay to be able to vote.
I know less fortunate people than I, who are far better with money than I am, because they have to be. I want their opinions and votes on taxes, far more than I want some trust fund baby's voice anywhere near government.
Goran_K says
And so your argument is what, you have to pay taxes to be able to vote? How much do you have to pay? What's the threshold? Do you get more than one vote if you pay more?
Do you have to pay taxes to be able to ... oh, I dunno ... be President too?
What about run for any office?
I don't think a Plutocracy is what is intended for the US, and I think your ideas would poll in single digits with the American public.
The Dems are elitist? Hah!
... to the point that the jailed comments are now more interesting to read. Not good for the site.
I noticed some fascinating reads there as well.
KimJongUn says
And everybody else can give their assessment regarding the value of her opinion.
Absolutely, but she still gets to vote, and you can never take that away because she is poor, or doesn't pay to be able to vote.
I know less fortunate people than I, who are far better with money than I am, because they have to be. I want their opinions and votes on taxes, far more than I want some trust fund baby's voice anywhere near government.
Goran_K says
Sure, I've always agreed that women have a right to kill their babies.
And so your argument is what, you have to pay taxes to be able to vote? How much do you have to pay? What's the threshold? Do you get more than one vote if you pay more?
Do you have to pay taxes to be able to ... oh, I dunno ... be President too?
What about run for any office?
I don't think a Plutocracy is what is intended for the US, and I think your ideas would poll in single digits with the American public.
The Dems are elitist? Hah!
108
LeonDurham
2017 Dec 9, 11:52am
Goran_K says
Just quoting this to show Goran's complete bias.
ou were lying when you said "Goran proposed eliminating college loans." This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, you lied.
Just quoting this to show Goran's complete bias.
109
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2017 Dec 9, 12:02pm
FuckTheMainstreamMedia
2017 Dec 9, 12:02pm
LeonDurham says
What is this supposed to prove?
Is there a poster here who is not biased?
Goran_K saysou were lying when you said "Goran proposed eliminating college loans." This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, you lied.
Just quoting this to show Goran's complete bias.
What is this supposed to prove?
Is there a poster here who is not biased?
110
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 9, 1:03pm
RWSGFY
2017 Dec 9, 1:03pm
LeonDurham says
Go open a special thread about moderation and another one about Goran's moral flaws. Stop shitting in this thread.
Goran_K saysou were lying when you said "Goran proposed eliminating college loans." This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, you lied.
Just quoting this to show Goran's complete bias.
Go open a special thread about moderation and another one about Goran's moral flaws. Stop shitting in this thread.
111
anonymous
2017 Dec 9, 3:12pm
KimJongUn says
Fair enough. I will do it.
Go open a special thread about moderation and another one about Goran's moral flaws. Stop shitting in this thread.
Fair enough. I will do it.
112
bob2356
2017 Dec 9, 5:14pm
Goran_K says
I wasn't aware we had switched to a referendum system for the federal budget. I didn't get the memo. As far as I knew no one but congress gets to vote how the money is spent, although lobbyists get to write a lot of stuff in to be voted on. People get to vote for their representatives to congress. Something all American citizens SHOULD know.
How can anyone contribute nothing? That's absurd. They pay fica, they buy things from business that pay taxes, they pay fees, they pay sales taxes, they pay property taxes, gasoline taxes, etc., etc..
HappyGilmore saysBecause of the Constitution? Ever heard of it?
Sure.
But I'm talking on a purely water cooler level. Does it seem fair that people who contribute nothing to the system get to vote on how money is spent? Seems pretty unfair.
I wasn't aware we had switched to a referendum system for the federal budget. I didn't get the memo. As far as I knew no one but congress gets to vote how the money is spent, although lobbyists get to write a lot of stuff in to be voted on. People get to vote for their representatives to congress. Something all American citizens SHOULD know.
How can anyone contribute nothing? That's absurd. They pay fica, they buy things from business that pay taxes, they pay fees, they pay sales taxes, they pay property taxes, gasoline taxes, etc., etc..
113
MrMagic
2017 Dec 9, 5:56pm
MrMagic
2017 Dec 9, 5:56pm
bob2356 says
The whole discussion on the tax bills concerns FEDERAL taxes, not all the other taxes. It would be beneficial to read and not to jump in at the end of a thread.
How can anyone contribute nothing? That's absurd. They pay fica, they buy things from business that pay taxes, they pay fees, they pay sales taxes, they pay property taxes, gasoline taxes, etc., etc..
The whole discussion on the tax bills concerns FEDERAL taxes, not all the other taxes. It would be beneficial to read and not to jump in at the end of a thread.
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Hopefully the house passes this thing with minimal changes since the property tax deduction survived. The house bill was horrible for upper middle class earners in blue states. This softens the blow. There’s about a $3000 difference now between the senate and house bills for us.
It’s still stupid all these tax changes and it’s basically a wash for our family all said and done. Just glad we didn’t stretch and buy a really expensive house.... those people in our income level are getting screwed if they can’t combine those interest payments with SALT for a fat deduction.